CB DRAFT FINALS THREAD: Sixers Win!!!!!!!

[mgent]

Putting Varejao on Amare is a huge mistake. West's ability to score on Amare neutralizes Amare's effect to score on West.

But if you put West on Bogut, Portland will eat West alive on the defensive end and suddenly Bogut becomes a 70% shooter and 30 points per game guy. He's too big, strong and talented down low for West to cover him.

I might have to rethink this.

No he won't even come close to that.  If you think Bogut can outscore Wade you're dreaming.

If people are really rushing to vote Portland because I'd experiment with a defense that's ridiculous.  We'd see almost immediately how effective it would be, and would probably only be used in late games when Amare is getting the ball not Bogut.

In 2009-10 when Bogut was at his healthiest he scored 25 or more points 8 times that year and that was when he was being guarded by Joakim Noah, Erik Dampier, Kendrick Perkins, Andrea Bargnani, and Emeka Okafor. All centers.

What do you think he is going to do against a mediocre on defense, 6'8" PF that isn't incredibly long, athletic or has the best strength or jumping ability?

I would just retract the strategy and live with the West/Amare matchup. Amare can't limit West's offense and he might not score as much as Amare, but he will get his and average 16-20 PPG against Amare.

Well that's why when I suggested it, I gave the justification that it's an experimental defense and would be immediately removed if shown to be ineffective.  It's by no means my main strategy, and would likely only be used sparingly when Amare is at C or Lopez is in the game.

As for Bogut, he used to be a dang good scorer, but after last year I don't think he's that consistent at all.

[Who]

Putting Varejao on Amare is a huge mistake. West's ability to score on Amare neutralizes Amare's effect to score on West.

I think that's true as well, but some people were saying that Amare over West wins the series for Portland.  I was just reminding them that I have Varejao and KMart, both guys who can slow down Amare.  Also depending on Boguts consistency in scoring up to this far in the playoffs, he might not even require Varejao on him.  Our first option if Amare heats up is to throw out KMart+Varejao, but if we need more scoring I'd stick with West + Varejao, especially when Robin Lopez is in the game (West can handle him easily)

I also said that knowing that the Blazers play significant time at C, where again Varejao guarding him would not cause an issue.

I don't think you are going to be able to use Varejao at the five against Amare (C) much in this series.

Andrew Bogut is going to be on the court for at least 35 minutes a night and Varejao is the only player (out of your main bigs) that is capable of defending Bogut.

And I am not sure Varejao can play more minutes than that and maintain his energy levels, rebounding and defense. Especially with the physical pounding that Bogut is going to put him through. Then to move over and try to defend an explosive Amare Stoudemire with tired legs ... and with each passing game in the series, the fatigue builds more and more. 

I don't think you can go with Varejao there. You need him on the court against Bogut whenever Bogut is out there.

-----------------------------------------

You could use Splitter as a fourth big for some minutes against Bogut but I think that will hurt you more than help you.

A Bogut vs Splitter matchup is an even larger advantage for Milwaukee at center than against Varejao. I don't think Varejao adds enough over Kenyon Martin to make that worthwhile.

Kenyon Martin is a very good defensive matchup vs Amare Stoudemire. Better at PF than at C (benefit of having an extra interior defender alongside him) but it is what it is.

[nickagneta]

Eh...  I wonder how much people are voting the GM here, rather than the team.  There's no doubt IP is a great guy, and hey, if folks want to give him the lifetime achievement award, I'll pat him on the back and say that he deserves it.  mgent has been a bit prickly in these debates, and I understand if people don't warm up to him the same way the do a beloved member of the mod staff and this year's commissioner.

However, there's simply no way in my mind that a team of Varejao/West/Iggy/Wade/Hinrich/Kmart/Barbosa loses to Bogut/Amare/Delfino/Harden/Lowry/Williams/Sessions.  Philly has a better defense, much more experience, much more depth, more talent, and a better superstar.

IP is a better arguer than mgent, I think, and some might think he's a nicer guy.  I admire him greatly, and am rooting for him, despite voting against him.  However, there's simply no way his team is better.  

That's completely unfair, and unfounded, and honestly, it seems to me anyways, that the only votes cast have been against my team, not for it.

"IP's a great guy and everything, but his team is really crappy and you shouldn't vote for him?"

Come on man, just say you don't think my team could win and leave it at that. I've worked too hard on this to be dismissed as a [dang] lifetime achievement award. That's a complete low-blow.  

It's not meant as a low blow, and I've paid homage to your team many times.  In fact, I voted it into the Finals.  However, I think Philly is far and away better.  

When I see people start to discount D. Wade, though, it's crazy to me.  It's like some are stretching for ways to criticize Philly and/or to elevate Portland.  I think we're all susceptible to subtle biases, and like Fafnir suggested earlier, mgent's fairly abrasive manner of arguing probably turned some people off.  The same can probably be said of my arguments, but I call things as I see them.  The way I see it in this series, there's nobody to check Wade, and until people quit sweeping that under the rug, I'm going to wonder what the heck's going on.

If people want to articulate why Wade is going to be ineffective in this series, I may change my mind.  However, Wade has been dominating in two NBA Finals, he's been dominating against the best defense in the NBA, he's been dominant against Harden, dominant against Lowry, and dominant against Delfino.  Amare and Bogut aren't going to matter, because the Blazers' relatively weak defense on Wade is going to result in those guys spending 10 - 15 minutes per night on the bench. 

There wasn't anyone to check Pierce. There wasn't anyone to check LBJ who dominated the ECF last year by destroying Deng and shutting down Rose at the end of games. I don't see how because Wade was great  in last year's finals, it makes him better then LBJ was in last year's ECF...

If Portland is good enough to beat the Kings then I think they are good enough to beat the Sixers with no defensive anchor and a 31 year old PF who is going up against the best athlete at his position. If Amare can kill Boozer (better then West) and KG (much better defender and similar offensively) then Why would he not dominate either of Varejao or West or K MArt?

Then throw in Bogut who must have made a great impact in the Kings series deterring Lebron because no one on the perimeter for Portland could keep him from going to the basket. LBJ is the best player in the NBA at attacking the basket. If Bogut was good enough to make a difference there then he will be against Wade as well imo.  

Here's the thing Kane. People who voted Portland last series voted anti-Lebron not pro Portland. They voted Lebron crumbling under the pressure not Bogut or Delfino stopping LeBron. They voted LeBron stopping LeBron and I challenge any person who voted Portland last series to say different(except IP that is).

[Donoghus]

Eh...  I wonder how much people are voting the GM here, rather than the team.  There's no doubt IP is a great guy, and hey, if folks want to give him the lifetime achievement award, I'll pat him on the back and say that he deserves it.  mgent has been a bit prickly in these debates, and I understand if people don't warm up to him the same way the do a beloved member of the mod staff and this year's commissioner.

However, there's simply no way in my mind that a team of Varejao/West/Iggy/Wade/Hinrich/Kmart/Barbosa loses to Bogut/Amare/Delfino/Harden/Lowry/Williams/Sessions.  Philly has a better defense, much more experience, much more depth, more talent, and a better superstar.

IP is a better arguer than mgent, I think, and some might think he's a nicer guy.  I admire him greatly, and am rooting for him, despite voting against him.  However, there's simply no way his team is better.  

That's completely unfair, and unfounded, and honestly, it seems to me anyways, that the only votes cast have been against my team, not for it.

"IP's a great guy and everything, but his team is really crappy and you shouldn't vote for him?"

Come on man, just say you don't think my team could win and leave it at that. I've worked too hard on this to be dismissed as a [dang] lifetime achievement award. That's a complete low-blow.  

It's not meant as a low blow, and I've paid homage to your team many times.  In fact, I voted it into the Finals.  However, I think Philly is far and away better.  

When I see people start to discount D. Wade, though, it's crazy to me.  It's like some are stretching for ways to criticize Philly and/or to elevate Portland.  I think we're all susceptible to subtle biases, and like Fafnir suggested earlier, mgent's fairly abrasive manner of arguing probably turned some people off.  The same can probably be said of my arguments, but I call things as I see them.  The way I see it in this series, there's nobody to check Wade, and until people quit sweeping that under the rug, I'm going to wonder what the heck's going on.

If people want to articulate why Wade is going to be ineffective in this series, I may change my mind.  However, Wade has been dominating in two NBA Finals, he's been dominating against the best defense in the NBA, he's been dominant against Harden, dominant against Lowry, and dominant against Delfino.  Amare and Bogut aren't going to matter, because the Blazers' relatively weak defense on Wade is going to result in those guys spending 10 - 15 minutes per night on the bench. 

There wasn't anyone to check Pierce. There wasn't anyone to check LBJ who dominated the ECF last year by destroying Deng and shutting down Rose at the end of games. I don't see how because Wade was great  in last year's finals, it makes him better then LBJ was in last year's ECF...

If Portland is good enough to beat the Kings then I think they are good enough to beat the Sixers with no defensive anchor and a 31 year old PF who is going up against the best athlete at his position. If Amare can kill Boozer (better then West) and KG (much better defender and similar offensively) then Why would he not dominate either of Varejao or West or K MArt?

Then throw in Bogut who must have made a great impact in the Kings series deterring Lebron because no one on the perimeter for Portland could keep him from going to the basket. LBJ is the best player in the NBA at attacking the basket. If Bogut was good enough to make a difference there then he will be against Wade as well imo.  

Here's the thing Kane. People who voted Portland last series voted anti-Lebron not pro Portland. They voted Lebron crumbling under the pressure not Bogut or Delfino stopping LeBron. They voted LeBron stopping LeBron and I challenge any person who voted Portland last series to say different(except IP that is).

I didn't and I illustrated why I chose Portland when I revealed my vote last night. It had nothing to do with anti-Lebron sentiment.  Can't speak for everyone who voted Portland but I know I didn't.

[Fafnir]

Here's the thing Kane. People who voted Portland last series voted anti-Lebron not pro Portland. They voted Lebron crumbling under the pressure not Bogut or Delfino stopping LeBron. They voted LeBron stopping LeBron and I challenge any person who voted Portland last series to say different(except IP that is).

I voted for the Kings, and this is more of the same crap that Roy threw out earlier in this thread. Complete and utter junk.

[nickagneta]

Here's the thing Kane. People who voted Portland last series voted anti-Lebron not pro Portland. They voted Lebron crumbling under the pressure not Bogut or Delfino stopping LeBron. They voted LeBron stopping LeBron and I challenge any person who voted Portland last series to say different(except IP that is).

I voted for the Kings, and this is more of the same crap that Roy threw out earlier in this thread. Complete and utter junk.

Maybe you should go back and read the multiple posts discussing LeBron choking on the big stage before once again becoming so hostile with me. It really is a wonder that you are allowed to stay a mod given your hostility towards people at times.

[Donoghus]

Here's the thing Kane. People who voted Portland last series voted anti-Lebron not pro Portland. They voted Lebron crumbling under the pressure not Bogut or Delfino stopping LeBron. They voted LeBron stopping LeBron and I challenge any person who voted Portland last series to say different(except IP that is).

I voted for the Kings, and this is more of the same crap that Roy threw out earlier in this thread. Complete and utter junk.

Maybe you should go back and read the multiple posts discussing LeBron choking on the big stage before once again becoming so hostile with me. It really is a wonder that you are allowed to stay a mod given your hostility towards people at times.

Did Faf talk about Lebron choking about why he chose Portland?  Did I? 

You said that "people who voted Portland last series voted anti-Lebron not Pro-Portland". 

I believe we just refuted that.  Some may have but not everyone voted Portland was anti-Lebron which I sensed to be the insinuation there.

[KCattheStripe]

[Fafnir]

Here's the thing Kane. People who voted Portland last series voted anti-Lebron not pro Portland. They voted Lebron crumbling under the pressure not Bogut or Delfino stopping LeBron. They voted LeBron stopping LeBron and I challenge any person who voted Portland last series to say different(except IP that is).

I voted for the Kings, and this is more of the same crap that Roy threw out earlier in this thread. Complete and utter junk.

Maybe you should go back and read the multiple posts discussing LeBron choking on the big stage before once again becoming so hostile with me.

Let me clarify its your idea that I'm hostile to not you Nick, one that Roy also expressed.

Its the concept that if you don't see what "I" see in the CBDraft. (as in who is the best team, best player, best whatever) there must be some externality that is swaying your objectivity (best liked GM, anti-LeBron sentiment due to his choke job in the Finals). Then you sweepingly declare that everyone who voted a certain way voted for a single reason.

Its a crappy way to put words in the mouth of others, and its a crappy way to put down people's opinions as not "objective/rational/whatever word you want to use".

Dons himself pointed out that it isn't true and I'd be shocked if there weren't several others who had similar thoughts behind their votes.

[Rondo2287]

Everybody lets calm down, or we maybe we should change the title of this thread to, "Hang on, this could get ugly"

[Fafnir]

Everybody lets calm down, or we maybe we should change the title of this thread to, "Hang on, this could get ugly"

That thread title has the best unintentional comedy factor I've ever seen in CE.

[mgent]

Here's the thing Kane. People who voted Portland last series voted anti-Lebron not pro Portland. They voted Lebron crumbling under the pressure not Bogut or Delfino stopping LeBron. They voted LeBron stopping LeBron and I challenge any person who voted Portland last series to say different(except IP that is).

I voted for the Kings, and this is more of the same crap that Roy threw out earlier in this thread. Complete and utter junk.

Maybe you should go back and read the multiple posts discussing LeBron choking on the big stage before once again becoming so hostile with me.

Let me clarify its your idea that I'm hostile to not you Nick, one that Roy also expressed.

Its the concept that if you don't see what "I" see in the CBDraft. (as in who is the best team, best player, best whatever) there must be some externality that is swaying your objectivity (best liked GM, anti-LeBron sentiment due to his choke job in the Finals). Then you sweepingly declare that everyone who voted a certain way voted for a single reason.

Its a crappy way to put words in the mouth of others, and its a crappy way to put down people's opinions as not "objective/rational/whatever word you want to use".

Dons himself pointed out that it isn't true and I'd be shocked if there weren't several others who had similar thoughts behind their votes.

Aren't you the one that's always preaching about respecting people's opinions and not calling them things like "crap."

I know you've put words in my mouth on more than one occasion.

[nickagneta]

Sorry, maybe I should have said a bunch or a lot rather than generalizing it and making it seem like everyone who votes Portland voted antiLebron. But if you think that no one voted anti Lebron I think you would be sorely mistaken. His Finals choke this year was a large factor in the Portland/Kings vote and even IP thought he was going to lose by a bunch.

[indeedproceed]

Sorry, maybe I should have said a bunch or a lot rather than generalizing it and making it seem like everyone who votes Portland voted antiLebron. But if you think that no one voted anti Lebron I think you would be sorely mistaken. His Finals choke this year was a large factor in the Portland/Kings vote and even IP thought he was going to lose by a bunch.

Well 'by a bunch' is a bit of an overstatement. I thought I was going to lose, because basically the whole thread was you and Kane telling me so.

[indeedproceed]

I've been gone for a while bc of work, so apologies if I didn't answer anyone's questions. I looked back, and while I saw a lot of theories out there, I didn't see anyone actually asking anything of me, per se.

So, lets refocus this bad-boy.

Philly only has one 'good' outside shooter in Captain Kirk. Barbosa is about good enough not to leave alone. Wade and Iggy are both horribly streaky and below average for their positions as starters.

Iggy, in fact, shoots less than 30% on short to mid-range jumpers, and only 37% on long 2's.

Wade is better from 3-9 feet, but he is still a sub 40% shooter from anywhere outside that range, and in the playoffs last season, he shot a stellar 27% from 3.

I've got two shotblockers down low, and elite help defender to protect the rim. The Sixers, coincidentally, are starting a guy in Varejao that Bogut will have no problem leaving to disrupt a shot, and while Iggy and Wade are both good playmakers, I don't think they're on par with LeBron, meaning good enough to make Bogut pay consistently for helping off AV.

Lowry is one of the top defensive point guards, and Delfino is a very talented defender on the wing. Maybe a bit more cagey than quick, but he's stronger than either Iggy or Wade, and shouldn't play anything even approaching matador defense, and against Iggy especially should act as a pretty good deterrant. Harden is about average defensively, which means against Wade he's at a disadvantage.

Amare Stoudemire isn't a very good defensive anchor (actually, I have learned he's really bad at that), but he's been pretty good defending David West, and since West's by no means quicker, and more athletic, he should be able to use that ability to bother West's shot more often than now.

So they all funnel it towards Andrew Bogut. Its not going to work every game, but this is a pretty tried and true method of dealing with guys like Iggy and Wade.  

That's how I'm going to defensively limit the Sixers.