CB DRAFT FINALS THREAD: Sixers Win!!!!!!!

[KCattheStripe]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

2003 San Antonio Spurs.

[indeedproceed]

Define "far and away" for me please.  Bogut and Amare are elite at defense and scoring, but Varejao and West aren't THAT much worse.  Definitely wouldn't say far and away.

Eh, they're a lot worse. Amare has proven he can do what he does without Steve Nash, but David West has not managed to succeed without a very good PG feeding him the ball. On top of that, when they play each other, Amare is better than West at every facet of the offensive game, plus he gets a few blocks here or there.

West is shooting 42% against Amare. That's gotta count for something pretty significant.

Varejao meanwhile is a very useful plsyer, but he's at his best playing off of a defensive big who is the real anchor, taking on the other teams' best scoring option. You're asking him to do tsomething he's not very good at by being your anchor, and you're asking him to guard a position he's physically out-classed at, at the center.

[wdleehi]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

Spurs first title.
The Rockets first title.

[indeedproceed]

Define "far and away" for me please.  Bogut and Amare are elite at defense and scoring, but Varejao and West aren't THAT much worse.  Definitely wouldn't say far and away.

Eh, they're a lot worse. Amare has proven he can do what he does without Steve Nash, but David West has not managed to succeed without a very good PG feeding him the ball. On top of that, when they play each other, Amare is better than West at every facet of the offensive game, plus he gets a few blocks here or there.

West is shooting 42% against Amare. That's gotta count for something pretty significant.

Varejao meanwhile is a very useful plsyer, but he's at his best playing off of a defensive big who is the real anchor, taking on the other teams' best scoring option. You're asking him to do tsomething he's not very good at by being your anchor, and you're asking him to guard a position he's physically out-classed at, at the center.

And to clarify, this isn't an insurmountable problem against most teams, but it surely is a problem against mine.

[mgent]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

Spurs first title.
The Rockets first title.

First of all, you can't compare prime Duncan and Hakeem to Amare.

Second of all, Tony Parker is a better go-to scorer than Lowry, and S-Jax plus a young Manu is better than Harden.

Third, 04 Pistons had no "all-NBA" big, they won that year due to Hamilton and Billups + an amazing defense.

[indeedproceed]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

Spurs first title.
The Rockets first title.

First of all, you can't compare prime Duncan and Hakeem to Amare.

Second of all, Tony Parker is a better go-to scorer than Lowry, and S-Jax plus a young Manu is better than Harden.

Third, 04 Pistons had no "all-NBA" big, they won that year due to Hamilton and Billups + an amazing defense.

Wasn't Ben Wallace an All-Star? Wasn't Sheed? Didn't Wallace win DPOY?

[mgent]

Define "far and away" for me please.  Bogut and Amare are elite at defense and scoring, but Varejao and West aren't THAT much worse.  Definitely wouldn't say far and away.

Eh, they're a lot worse. Amare has proven he can do what he does without Steve Nash, but David West has not managed to succeed without a very good PG feeding him the ball. On top of that, when they play each other, Amare is better than West at every facet of the offensive game, plus he gets a few blocks here or there.

West is shooting 42% against Amare. That's gotta count for something pretty significant.

Varejao meanwhile is a very useful plsyer, but he's at his best playing off of a defensive big who is the real anchor, taking on the other teams' best scoring option. You're asking him to do tsomething he's not very good at by being your anchor, and you're asking him to guard a position he's physically out-classed at, at the center.

And to clarify, this isn't an insurmountable problem against most teams, but it surely is a problem against mine.

I guess I didn't mention this, but we'll start the series with Varejao on Amare and see how that works.  Bogut isn't going to have a bigger advantage on West than he is Varejao, and if your offense is continuously going to Bogut post-ups then that's good news for us.

[Roy H.]

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

Philly has an all-star frontcourt player.  His name is David West.  He made the all-star team in '08 and '09, and put up 19/8/50% last year, with good defense.

[wdleehi]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

Spurs first title.
The Rockets first title.

First of all, you can't compare prime Duncan and Hakeem to Amare.

Second of all, Tony Parker is a better go-to scorer than Lowry, and S-Jax plus a young Manu is better than Harden.

Third, 04 Pistons had no "all-NBA" big, they won that year due to Hamilton and Billups + an amazing defense.

There was no Tony Parker for the first title.  It was Avery at PG.

And the first year Parker won a title, he split time with Speedy.  

[indeedproceed]

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

Philly has an all-star frontcourt player.  His name is David West.  He made the all-star team in '08 and '09, and put up 19/8/50% last year, with good defense.

Not against Amare Stoudemire. And he won't be an all-star in 2011, there's just no way with that injury.

David West stinks, Roy.

[Roy H.]

I am surprised people have such faith in David West returning to a high level of play so soon after major knee surgery. Neither have we seen how Varejao has recovered from his rehab (all signs point to full recovery, but proof is in the pudding).

Factor in the injury history of Martin, Daniels, Brad Miller (done?), and I wonder what kind of state the Philly roster, especially its frontcourt, will be in after 90+ games.

Isn't the same true of Andrew Bogut, who has had a very spotty injury history himself?

Like IP himself said, if Philly and Portland are in the Finals, it means that West and Bogut are healthy.  If they weren't, their teams would have lost long before now.

[indeedproceed]

I am surprised people have such faith in David West returning to a high level of play so soon after major knee surgery. Neither have we seen how Varejao has recovered from his rehab (all signs point to full recovery, but proof is in the pudding).

Factor in the injury history of Martin, Daniels, Brad Miller (done?), and I wonder what kind of state the Philly roster, especially its frontcourt, will be in after 90+ games.

Isn't the same true of Andrew Bogut, who has had a very spotty injury history himself?

Like IP himself said, if Philly and Portland are in the Finals, it means that West and Bogut are healthy.  If they weren't, their teams would have lost long before now.

I'm in agreement with this.

[Roy H.]

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

Philly has an all-star frontcourt player.  His name is David West.  He made the all-star team in '08 and '09, and put up 19/8/50% last year, with good defense.

Not against Amare Stoudemire. And he won't be an all-star in 2011, there's just no way with that injury.

David West stinks, Roy.

I thought you were the guy who argued that injuries didn't matter much at this stage, because those questions have been answered?  Otherwise, isn't it fair for critics just to assume that Andrew Bogut is yet again injured, like he has been the last three seasons?

EDIT:  Just saw the above.

[mgent]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

Spurs first title.
The Rockets first title.

First of all, you can't compare prime Duncan and Hakeem to Amare.

Second of all, Tony Parker is a better go-to scorer than Lowry, and S-Jax plus a young Manu is better than Harden.

Third, 04 Pistons had no "all-NBA" big, they won that year due to Hamilton and Billups + an amazing defense.

Wasn't Ben Wallace an All-Star? Wasn't Sheed? Didn't Wallace win DPOY?

Not the All-NBA talent someone was saying you need to win a title.  Even if Sheed was an all-star, he still wasn't even close to carrying the scoring load, neither of their bigs were.  So myth busted.  Plus Sheed was a MUCH MUCH MUCH better defender than Amare, and Ben was a better rebounder/defender than Bogut.

[mgent]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

Spurs first title.
The Rockets first title.

First of all, you can't compare prime Duncan and Hakeem to Amare.

Second of all, Tony Parker is a better go-to scorer than Lowry, and S-Jax plus a young Manu is better than Harden.

Third, 04 Pistons had no "all-NBA" big, they won that year due to Hamilton and Billups + an amazing defense.

There was no Tony Parker for the first title.  It was Avery at PG.

And the first year Parker won a title, he split time with Speedy.  

Whoops, someone said 03 Spurs that's what I had in my head.  The first Spurs however had Duncan and Robinson carrying them.  How does that support the claim that Amare and Bogut (far inferior) automatically win?