CB DRAFT FINALS THREAD: Sixers Win!!!!!!!

[wdleehi]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

Spurs first title.
The Rockets first title.

First of all, you can't compare prime Duncan and Hakeem to Amare.

Second of all, Tony Parker is a better go-to scorer than Lowry, and S-Jax plus a young Manu is better than Harden.

Third, 04 Pistons had no "all-NBA" big, they won that year due to Hamilton and Billups + an amazing defense.

Wasn't Ben Wallace an All-Star? Wasn't Sheed? Didn't Wallace win DPOY?

Not the All-NBA talent someone was saying you need to win a title.  Even if Sheed was an all-star, he still wasn't even close to carrying the scoring load, neither of their bigs were.  So myth busted.  Plus Sheed was a MUCH MUCH MUCH better defender than Amare, and Ben was a better rebounder/defender than Bogut.

That team was based on team defense.  The strengths of their two big men.  


Dirk's strength is offense and shooting.  That's how the Mavs won.


KG strength is defense.  That's how the Celtics won.


Duncan's strength was defense.  That's how the Spurs won.

[wdleehi]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

Spurs first title.
The Rockets first title.

First of all, you can't compare prime Duncan and Hakeem to Amare.

Second of all, Tony Parker is a better go-to scorer than Lowry, and S-Jax plus a young Manu is better than Harden.

Third, 04 Pistons had no "all-NBA" big, they won that year due to Hamilton and Billups + an amazing defense.

There was no Tony Parker for the first title.  It was Avery at PG.

And the first year Parker won a title, he split time with Speedy.  

Whoops, someone said 03 Spurs that's what I had in my head.  The first Spurs however had Duncan and Robinson carrying them.  How does that support the claim that Amare and Bogut (far inferior) automatically win?

That's my leaning.  You tell me what you plan to do to counter that and why you will win.


Historical arguments is what lead me to think size kills. 

[Who]

Amare has proven he can do what he does without Steve Nash, but David West has not managed to succeed without a very good PG feeding him the ball.

David West has done just fine with Chris Paul injured.

The Hornets had Darren Collison for half of last season and David West maintained his production. From the looks of it, it looks like he actually increased his scoring and his FG% without Paul.

To say a player with David West's skill-set cannot function without an elite PG is ridiculous. Just like it was ridiculous that anyone thought a player with Amare Stoudemire's skill-set couldn't function without Steve Nash.

[KCattheStripe]

Whoops, someone said 03 Spurs that's what I had in my head.  The first Spurs however had Duncan and Robinson carrying them.  How does that support the claim that Amare and Bogut (far inferior) automatically win?

2003 Tony parker was about as good a player as Kyle Lowry.

[indeedproceed]

Who's got a point. David west returns to simply being outclasses in all elements of his game by amare.

[mgent]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

Spurs first title.
The Rockets first title.

First of all, you can't compare prime Duncan and Hakeem to Amare.

Second of all, Tony Parker is a better go-to scorer than Lowry, and S-Jax plus a young Manu is better than Harden.

Third, 04 Pistons had no "all-NBA" big, they won that year due to Hamilton and Billups + an amazing defense.

There was no Tony Parker for the first title.  It was Avery at PG.

And the first year Parker won a title, he split time with Speedy.  

Whoops, someone said 03 Spurs that's what I had in my head.  The first Spurs however had Duncan and Robinson carrying them.  How does that support the claim that Amare and Bogut (far inferior) automatically win?

That's my leaning.  You tell me what you plan to do to counter that and why you will win.


Historical arguments is what lead me to think size kills. 

That's the thing, historical arguments don't apply here.  You're talking about two of the BEST BIGS OF ALL FREAKIN TIME in Duncan and Robinson, and the one of the only teams EVER to win without an all-NBA perimeter player.

Name one team with an all star PF, a good C, and no premiere go-to scorer won a title.  There's your historical argument.

My plan to counter the Blazers is to outscore them at SG and SF way more than Amare will outscore David West, while playing better defense.  

[Lucky17]

Like IP himself said, if Philly and Portland are in the Finals, it means that West and Bogut are healthy.  If they weren't, their teams would have lost long before now.

I guess that's my point. How did Philly advance this far? People voted for them over Washington head-to-head?

[KCattheStripe]

OK MGent, but the only time a team has won without an all NBA Calibre big but with a Greta 2 guard is Michael Jordan. I am the biggest Dwade supporter on this blog and I don't think that's enough.

[mgent]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

Spurs first title.
The Rockets first title.

First of all, you can't compare prime Duncan and Hakeem to Amare.

Second of all, Tony Parker is a better go-to scorer than Lowry, and S-Jax plus a young Manu is better than Harden.

Third, 04 Pistons had no "all-NBA" big, they won that year due to Hamilton and Billups + an amazing defense.

Wasn't Ben Wallace an All-Star? Wasn't Sheed? Didn't Wallace win DPOY?

Not the All-NBA talent someone was saying you need to win a title.  Even if Sheed was an all-star, he still wasn't even close to carrying the scoring load, neither of their bigs were.  So myth busted.  Plus Sheed was a MUCH MUCH MUCH better defender than Amare, and Ben was a better rebounder/defender than Bogut.

That team was based on team defense.  The strengths of their two big men.  


Dirk's strength is offense and shooting.  That's how the Mavs won.


KG strength is defense.  That's how the Celtics won.


Duncan's strength was defense.  That's how the Spurs won.

Overstatements.

My strength is having a better overall team.  That's how the 76ers win.

[dark_lord]

what good are bigs offensively, when the guards/wings cant get them the ball in good positions.  philly dominates spots 1,2,3....especially 2,3.  bring in barbosa and it continues

[action781]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

Spurs first title.
The Rockets first title.

First of all, you can't compare prime Duncan and Hakeem to Amare.

Second of all, Tony Parker is a better go-to scorer than Lowry, and S-Jax plus a young Manu is better than Harden.

Third, 04 Pistons had no "all-NBA" big, they won that year due to Hamilton and Billups + an amazing defense.

Wasn't Ben Wallace an All-Star? Wasn't Sheed? Didn't Wallace win DPOY?

Not the All-NBA talent someone was saying you need to win a title.  Even if Sheed was an all-star, he still wasn't even close to carrying the scoring load, neither of their bigs were.  So myth busted.  Plus Sheed was a MUCH MUCH MUCH better defender than Amare, and Ben was a better rebounder/defender than Bogut.

And Amare and Bogut are MUCH MUCH MUCH better scorers than Sheed + Ben.  It's about balance here.  The overall level of offensive/defensive talent of Portland's bigs is greater than that of the Pistons' bigs in '06.

[Who]

I guess I didn't mention this, but we'll start the series with Varejao on Amare and see how that works.  Bogut isn't going to have a bigger advantage on West than he is Varejao, and if your offense is continuously going to Bogut post-ups then that's good news for us.

I think that is a mistake.

There is a huge difference between the physical size of David West (6-8, 230lbs) and Anderson Varejao (6-11, 260lbs) and their respective defensive ability against a power based center like Andrew Bogut. Simply put, there is no way in hell that David West can cover Andrew Bogut.

That will turn Bogut into a 22-26ppg on a 60+% TS% level scorer.

Live with Amare scoring on David West. It's not the end of the world.

[dark_lord]

furthermore.....portland's bigs wont get any garbage type points.  they will have to work hard for theirs.  philly has players that can drive, attract help defense and drop off, throw lobs, or kick outs to open teammates.  the easiest points the bigs of portland gets are pick/rolls and pick/pops. with players as athletic and smart as philly's, they make adjustments to picks, imo

[action781]

I give the backcourt to Philly and frontcourt to Portland.  Trying to determine which one grants a bigger advantage. 

The fuzzy part here is: is a SF a backcourt or frontcourt?  The last 10 years have been an era where the SF position is changing a lot.  I no longer consider a lineup broken down into backcourt vs. frontcourt because SF can fit into either.  I know break down teams by 3 distinct roles:  point guard, wings (2/3), frontcourt (4/5).

It's clear Philly has a huge advantage on the wings here.  It's clear Portland has a huge advantage in the frontcourt here.  Which advantage is bigger?  That's tough, but I'm leaning with Philly here.

Then it comes down to point guard.  I personally think that Lowry will outplay Hinrich in this series (I have stated a lot here that I have always liked Lowry similarly to how IP has). 

So, is Lowry's advantage over Hinrich enough to pull the balance of the series back in Portland's favor?

I'm literally leaning "tie" right now or not voting at all.

[wdleehi]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."

Spurs first title.
The Rockets first title.

First of all, you can't compare prime Duncan and Hakeem to Amare.

Second of all, Tony Parker is a better go-to scorer than Lowry, and S-Jax plus a young Manu is better than Harden.

Third, 04 Pistons had no "all-NBA" big, they won that year due to Hamilton and Billups + an amazing defense.

There was no Tony Parker for the first title.  It was Avery at PG.

And the first year Parker won a title, he split time with Speedy.  

Whoops, someone said 03 Spurs that's what I had in my head.  The first Spurs however had Duncan and Robinson carrying them.  How does that support the claim that Amare and Bogut (far inferior) automatically win?

That's my leaning.  You tell me what you plan to do to counter that and why you will win.


Historical arguments is what lead me to think size kills. 

That's the thing, historical arguments don't apply here.  You're talking about two of the BEST BIGS OF ALL FREAKIN TIME in Duncan and Robinson, and the one of the only teams EVER to win without an all-NBA perimeter player.

Name one team with an all star PF, a good C, and no premiere go-to scorer won a title.  There's your historical argument.

My plan to counter the Blazers is to outscore them at SG and SF way more than Amare will outscore David West, while playing better defense.  

How?


AI2 does not stretch the floor for Wade, so the defense can pack it in and they have a shot blocker in Bogut that sideshow can not pull out of the paint.  



I see Wade getting his 26 or so points and AI2 getting 12.  



And you still haven't addressed my thoughts on how you will approach the Blazers advantage as big men.  And no matter your views on history, mine is still the best size usually kills.  If you want my vote, you need to address this better.