CB DRAFT FINALS THREAD: Sixers Win!!!!!!!

[mgent]

Eh...  I wonder how much people are voting the GM here, rather than the team.  There's no doubt IP is a great guy, and hey, if folks want to give him the lifetime achievement award, I'll pat him on the back and say that he deserves it.  mgent has been a bit prickly in these debates, and I understand if people don't warm up to him the same way the do a beloved member of the mod staff and this year's commissioner.

However, there's simply no way in my mind that a team of Varejao/West/Iggy/Wade/Hinrich/Kmart/Barbosa loses to Bogut/Amare/Delfino/Harden/Lowry/Williams/Sessions.  Philly has a better defense, much more experience, much more depth, more talent, and a better superstar.

IP is a better arguer than mgent, I think, and some might think he's a nicer guy.  I admire him greatly, and am rooting for him, despite voting against him.  However, there's simply no way his team is better.  

That's completely unfair, and unfounded, and honestly, it seems to me anyways, that the only votes cast have been against my team, not for it.

"IP's a great guy and everything, but his team is really crappy and you shouldn't vote for him?"

Come on man, just say you don't think my team could win and leave it at that. I've worked too hard on this to be dismissed as a [dang] lifetime achievement award. That's a complete low-blow.  

It's not meant as a low blow, and I've paid homage to your team many times.  In fact, I voted it into the Finals.  However, I think Philly is far and away better.  

When I see people start to discount D. Wade, though, it's crazy to me.  It's like some are stretching for ways to criticize Philly and/or to elevate Portland.  I think we're all susceptible to subtle biases, and like Fafnir suggested earlier, mgent's fairly abrasive manner of arguing probably turned some people off.  The same can probably be said of my arguments, but I call things as I see them.  The way I see it in this series, there's nobody to check Wade, and until people quit sweeping that under the rug, I'm going to wonder what the heck's going on.

If people want to articulate why Wade is going to be ineffective in this series, I may change my mind.  However, Wade has been dominating in two NBA Finals, he's been dominating against the best defense in the NBA, he's been dominant against Harden, dominant against Lowry, and dominant against Delfino.  Amare and Bogut aren't going to matter, because the Blazers' relatively weak defense on Wade is going to result in those guys spending 10 - 15 minutes per night on the bench.  

It's okay Roy, people have been trying as hard as they can to come up with SOME kind of weakness since the first round (calling players injury-prone that aren't, saying West will be a worse Taj Gibson after surgery, saying we'll never come close to the real Heat because all of LeBron's intangibles, bringing up zone defense - lol - time and time again).  It's just what you have to deal with when your team has no weaknesses  

If people want to vote against me because I'm not as nice, aren't as good at conveying my feelings in a way that no one takes offense, or because I'm brutally honest when it comes to this game, fine, because I'm going to continue to say what I think and stick to my guns.  I trust the majority of people can put that aside and vote objectively.  If you'd prefer to get to know me (since I'm not a vet GM like most) that's fine too, I can actually be a nice guy outside of a setting where I can win something.

Sorry I'm late to the party, but you guys have done a great job returning fire at IP, the master-debater.  I'M HERE NOW, LET THE ABRASIVE ARGUMENTS BEGIN.

[Rondo2287]

I hope this isnt lazy, but.  I thought the Kings were far and away better than the blazers, but thought in all honesty we would get steamrolled by the 76'ers.  Thats why I plan on voting for philly

Eh, its a little lazy.

I thought you guys would've demolished the Sixers, but I also thought I was going to lose to you guys.

How do you fight a tough pair of swingmen? With very good rim deterrents, and good individual defense. James takes Wade, Chandler takes the rim, Varejao is confused why LeBron won't pass him the ball or high-five him, and the Kings win. That's how I saw it playing out.

I just didnt see anybody here voting lebron over wade in the finals.  Didnt see it happening.  Nick and I thought about having Lebron guard wade, but then on the other end AI2 could defend lebron and lebron would have exherted alot of energy guarding wade.  I dunno, i appreciate you would have voted us over philly, but I have always thought Philly was the best team in this whole thing after they got Wade

[jgod213]

Here's a question i have:

Why shoudl i just be assuming that Andre Igoudala is going to perform at a relatively elite level with the spotlight as bright as it's ever been? I've NEVER been a big fan of his game and i just happened to check out his playoff averages:

2011 averges:     11ppg/7rebs/7assts/3to/42%fg/21%3pt/71%ft
  
career averages:  14ppg/6rebs/5assts/3to/42%fg/29%3pt/67%ft

Obviosuly he is a great teammate and defender. but those offensive numbers do VERY little for me considering he was the primary scoring and playmaking option for Phila.

What is his role next to Wade? I'm not comfortable with him being a spot-up shooter.

That's for you, MGent.  My good sir...

[mgent]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

[KCattheStripe]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

If it's a match-up of two all NBA Bigs versus against none, then yes I do throw match-ups on the wing. And I bet you , you can't.

[mgent]

We still haven't heard from the 76ers.


I have thrown out a simple point of view that I have always believed, size kills in the NBA.


But I haven't voted.  

He still has his chance to explain how his team will play this and win.  


In fact, I have only heard posters say "I am voting 76ers" without hearing that teams strategy.  

When I vote it's usually 90% the team, 10% strategy/debates.  Some people don't need to hear debates because it's not enough to separate the teams in their mind.  Just like some people rely heavily on the things said by GMs and let them shape their minds for them.

Work with me here on the debates, this thread took off and I'm still catching up on the past 6 pages.

[mgent]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

If it's a match-up of two all NBA Bigs versus against none, then yes I do throw match-ups on the wing. And I bet you , you can't.

Bogut an all NBA big?  Riiiiiight.

[indeedproceed]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

[KCattheStripe]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

If it's a match-up of two all NBA Bigs versus against none, then yes I do throw match-ups on the wing. And I bet you , you can't.

Bogut an all NBA big?  Riiiiiight.

2009-2010: Andrew Bogut ALL NBA 3rd Team

[Donoghus]

I give the backcourt to Philly and frontcourt to Portland.  Trying to determine which one grants a bigger advantage. 

[Lucky17]

I've been away from these discussions for a little while, so forgive me if this has already come up, but how has Philly addressed the questions regarding the collective health of its roster?

I am surprised people have such faith in David West returning to a high level of play so soon after major knee surgery. Neither have we seen how Varejao has recovered from his rehab (all signs point to full recovery, but proof is in the pudding).

Factor in the injury history of Martin, Daniels, Brad Miller (done?), and I wonder what kind of state the Philly roster, especially its frontcourt, will be in after 90+ games.

[mgent]

It's not meant as a low blow, and I've paid homage to your team many times.  In fact, I voted it into the Finals.  However, I think Philly is far and away better.  

When I see people start to discount D. Wade, though, it's crazy to me.  It's like some are stretching for ways to criticize Philly and/or to elevate Portland.  I think we're all susceptible to subtle biases, and like Fafnir suggested earlier, mgent's fairly abrasive manner of arguing probably turned some people off.  The same can probably be said of my arguments, but I call things as I see them.  The way I see it in this series, there's nobody to check Wade, and until people quit sweeping that under the rug, I'm going to wonder what the heck's going on.

If people want to articulate why Wade is going to be ineffective in this series, I may change my mind.  However, Wade has been dominating in two NBA Finals, he's been dominating against the best defense in the NBA, he's been dominant against Harden, dominant against Lowry, and dominant against Delfino.  Amare and Bogut aren't going to matter, because the Blazers' relatively weak defense on Wade is going to result in those guys spending 10 - 15 minutes per night on the bench.  

That's fine if you believe that mgent has the better team, you've been advocating for them from the moment he paired d-wade and Iggy.

But here is the problem when you say "People are voting for the GM they like best": You're de-legitimizing peoples' opinions who don't agree with your evaluation of the players involved. Not everyone is as big a fan of Wade as you are, not everyone thinks he's as capable of single-handedly elevating his team, because in a lot of peoples' minds (mine included) we've seen him struggle without a premier big-man since Shaq left, and that was made even more-so evident when he and LeBron James, the best player in basketball, couldn't dominate the game the way they needed to.

I think I can win this shindig because I've got far and away the best defensive big, I've got far and away the best scoring big, and I think I have the better point guard, and a swingman (Delfino) who has shown the ability to defend at least one of Wade/Iggy.

I'm not debating that Wade will get his points, I'm debating that it won't be enough. Wade is going to score 24 or 26 a game, and he's not going to enough get help anywhere else. He's the best player in the series, but he's not on the best team. The best team is the Blazers, because they're well-rounded, their talent is less redundant, and they've got a dominating frontcourt.  

And if people agree with that, it doesn't mean they're blindly voting for me because they find my movie references funny.

Define "far and away" for me please.  Bogut and Amare are elite at defense and scoring, but Varejao and West aren't THAT much worse in the respective categories.  Definitely wouldn't say far and away.

[wdleehi]

We still haven't heard from the 76ers.


I have thrown out a simple point of view that I have always believed, size kills in the NBA.


But I haven't voted.  

He still has his chance to explain how his team will play this and win.  


In fact, I have only heard posters say "I am voting 76ers" without hearing that teams strategy.  

When I vote it's usually 90% the team, 10% strategy/debates.  Some people don't need to hear debates because it's not enough to separate the teams in their mind.  Just like some people rely heavily on the things said by GMs and let them shape their minds for them.

Work with me here on the debates, this thread took off and I'm still catching up on the past 6 pages.

I wasn't rushing you.  I was waiting to allow you the chance to discuss your team.


Everyone has talent at this level.  I put a lot into how the GMs approach the matchup.  

[indeedproceed]

I give the backcourt to Philly and frontcourt to Portland.  Trying to determine which one grants a bigger advantage.  

Frontcourt is bigger so...bigger advantage?

Honestly I said it above, but to re-hash:

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

[mgent]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.

So you're just taking the teams and the matchups out of the equation.  As long as you have an all NBA Big you automatically win?  I bet you any money I could name more that lost than won.

Well, tell me the last NBA champion that didn't have an all-star frontcourt player.

I'm thinking about it, and...Bulls?

I think that Wade and Iggy are streaky enough to wins some games on their own.

I also think that Bogut, Delfino, and Lowry are consistent enough to really bother Wade and Iggy, and STAT is good enough to keep David West from making a difference offensively.

Bogut will be allowed free-range off of Anderson Varejao once Wade or Iggy start their move to the basket, and I think that's a huge difference maker.

Bogut being able to leave Varejao once the drive really begins changes the series.

Tell me the last time a team won without an all star perimeter player.  Or a true go-to scorer on the perimeter.

I agree with you, size is more important, but the rest of the players are almost as important and I think in this case both of our teams are elite enough where you have to look at overall talent and matchups rather than just saying "size automatically wins."