CB DRAFT FINALS THREAD: Sixers Win!!!!!!!

[Roy H.]

Let them pick the path of the argument instead of being so specific that you chose the path.  This is their teams.  They should be framing this argument, not the rest of us.  

I like participating in the arguments / debates, and helping shape them.  In my mind, it helps decide who has the better team, rather than who is a better arguer.

If IP or Blazers' supporters can show me why I'm wrong, I'm still listening.  I haven't cast my ballot yet.  I just want to know how Portland is going to contain Wade, and to a lesser extent AI2.  Tell me why Philly's strengths aren't so strong, and why Portland's weaknesses aren't so weak.

[KCattheStripe]

There hadn't been much need for this until now, but please remember kiddos:

[indeedproceed]

It's not meant as a low blow, and I've paid homage to your team many times.  In fact, I voted it into the Finals.  However, I think Philly is far and away better. 

When I see people start to discount D. Wade, though, it's crazy to me.  It's like some are stretching for ways to criticize Philly and/or to elevate Portland.  I think we're all susceptible to subtle biases, and like Fafnir suggested earlier, mgent's fairly abrasive manner of arguing probably turned some people off.  The same can probably be said of my arguments, but I call things as I see them.  The way I see it in this series, there's nobody to check Wade, and until people quit sweeping that under the rug, I'm going to wonder what the heck's going on.

If people want to articulate why Wade is going to be ineffective in this series, I may change my mind.  However, Wade has been dominating in two NBA Finals, he's been dominating against the best defense in the NBA, he's been dominant against Harden, dominant against Lowry, and dominant against Delfino.  Amare and Bogut aren't going to matter, because the Blazers' relatively weak defense on Wade is going to result in those guys spending 10 - 15 minutes per night on the bench. 

That's fine if you believe that mgent has the better team, you've been advocating for them from the moment he paired d-wade and Iggy.

But here is the problem when you say "People are voting for the GM they like best": You're de-legitimizing peoples' opinions who don't agree with your evaluation of the players involved. Not everyone is as big a fan of Wade as you are, not everyone thinks he's as capable of single-handedly elevating his team, because in a lot of peoples' minds (mine included) we've seen him struggle without a premier big-man since Shaq left, and that was made even more-so evident when he and LeBron James, the best player in basketball, couldn't dominate the game the way they needed to.

I think I can win this shindig because I've got far and away the best defensive big, I've got far and away the best scoring big, and I think I have the better point guard, and a swingman (Delfino) who has shown the ability to defend at least one of Wade/Iggy.

I'm not debating that Wade will get his points, I'm debating that it won't be enough. Wade is going to score 24 or 26 a game, and he's not going to enough get help anywhere else. He's the best player in the series, but he's not on the best team. The best team is the Blazers, because they're well-rounded, their talent is less redundant, and they've got a dominating frontcourt. 

And if people agree with that, it doesn't mean they're blindly voting for me because they find my movie references funny.

[KCattheStripe]

Let them pick the path of the argument instead of being so specific that you chose the path.  This is their teams.  They should be framing this argument, not the rest of us. 

I like participating in the arguments / debates, and helping shape them.  In my mind, it helps decide who has the better team, rather than who is a better arguer.

That's why you claim that other people are voting not on who they think has a better team but rather because they like someone else more, because it helps decide who has a better team?

[Roy H.]

But here is the problem when you say "People are voting for the GM they like best": You're de-legitimizing peoples' opinions who don't agree with your evaluation of the players involved.

To be clear, the "vote the GM" argument is only aimed at those GMs who make shorthand, lazy arguments for one side or the other, without seriously considering critiques or strengths of one team or the other.

That type of thing absolutely *does* happen in this draft, when consciously or subconsciously.  Heck, I know in my own mind, I feel guilty when I have to vote against one of the other mods (something I've done three times this draft, by the way).  It sucks, because I feel like I'm voting down somebody I personally like, and there's a very real pressure there (internal within myself).  I'd be shocked if I was the only one who was a bit uncomfortable voting against people I personally care for over guys who are relative strangers or who rub me the wrong way.

So, I apologize if I offended anybody, and if my thoughts crossed the line.  Maybe I should have kept that to myself, but again, some of the justifications to vote against Wade are just strange to me.

[jgod213]

Here's a question i have:

Why shoudl i just be assuming that Andre Igoudala is going to perform at a relatively elite level with the spotlight as bright as it's ever been? I've NEVER been a big fan of his game and i just happened to check out his playoff averages:

2011 averges:     11ppg/7rebs/7assts/3to/42%fg/21%3pt/71%ft
  
career averages:  14ppg/6rebs/5assts/3to/42%fg/29%3pt/67%ft

Obviosuly he is a great teammate and defender. but those offensive numbers do VERY little for me considering he was the primary scoring and playmaking option for Phila.

What is his role next to Wade? I'm not comfortable with him being a spot-up shooter.

[Roy H.]

Let them pick the path of the argument instead of being so specific that you chose the path.  This is their teams.  They should be framing this argument, not the rest of us. 

I like participating in the arguments / debates, and helping shape them.  In my mind, it helps decide who has the better team, rather than who is a better arguer.

That's why you claim that other people are voting not on who they think has a better team but rather because they like someone else more, because it helps decide who has a better team?

In part, sure.  When I see people bend over backward to discount Wade, I wonder what NBA they've been watching over the past five years.

[Rondo2287]

I hope this isnt lazy, but.  I thought the Kings were far and away better than the blazers, but thought in all honesty we would get steamrolled by the 76'ers.  Thats why I plan on voting for philly

[KCattheStripe]

Let them pick the path of the argument instead of being so specific that you chose the path.  This is their teams.  They should be framing this argument, not the rest of us. 

I like participating in the arguments / debates, and helping shape them.  In my mind, it helps decide who has the better team, rather than who is a better arguer.

That's why you claim that other people are voting not on who they think has a better team but rather because they like someone else more, because it helps decide who has a better team?

In part, sure.  When I see people bend over backward to discount Wade, I wonder what NBA they've been watching over the past five years.

Can you give an example of how people have been bending over backwards?

[wdleehi]

We still haven't heard from the 76ers.


I have thrown out a simple point of view that I have always believed, size kills in the NBA.


But I haven't voted.  

He still has his chance to explain how his team will play this and win.  


In fact, I have only heard posters say "I am voting 76ers" without hearing that teams strategy.  

[Roy H.]

I hope this isnt lazy, but.  I thought the Kings were far and away better than the blazers, but thought in all honesty we would get steamrolled by the 76'ers.  Thats why I plan on voting for philly

No, since you agree with me, it's not lazy at all.  

(Of course I'm kidding, and I apologize for even bringing my thoughts up.  I should have kept them to myself, or addressed them behind closed doors.)

[Roy H.]

Let them pick the path of the argument instead of being so specific that you chose the path.  This is their teams.  They should be framing this argument, not the rest of us. 

I like participating in the arguments / debates, and helping shape them.  In my mind, it helps decide who has the better team, rather than who is a better arguer.

That's why you claim that other people are voting not on who they think has a better team but rather because they like someone else more, because it helps decide who has a better team?

In part, sure.  When I see people bend over backward to discount Wade, I wonder what NBA they've been watching over the past five years.

Can you give an example of how people have been bending over backwards?

At this point, I'd rather just move on, rather than offend people further.  Like I said above, mgent can defend his own team.

[indeedproceed]

I hope this isnt lazy, but.  I thought the Kings were far and away better than the blazers, but thought in all honesty we would get steamrolled by the 76'ers.  Thats why I plan on voting for philly

Eh, its a little lazy.

I thought you guys would've demolished the Sixers, but I also thought I was going to lose to you guys.

How do you fight a tough pair of swingmen? With very good rim deterrents, and good individual defense. James takes Wade, Chandler takes the rim, Varejao is confused why LeBron won't pass him the ball or high-five him, and the Kings win. That's how I saw it playing out.

[Redz]

Subjective game is subjective.

Objectively spoken.

[KCattheStripe]

Kobe couldn't win without an all NBA Big, Wade couldn't, Pierce couldn't. Only one swing player ever could and that's MJ. That's why I think Philly doesn't have enough to win with Wade.