Author Topic: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh  (Read 39751 times)

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Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2009, 12:41:38 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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The premise for suggesting this trade is that "Bosh is better than KG". When did this happen?. I don't look at stats so I don't know if this is what you're looking at. I don't see any way that Bosh could be a more important player for the Celtics than KG is. Even if KG doesn't score a point or get a rebound he does so many other things that I don't think Bosh even knows they exist.

Actually, I think the premise is "Bosh is about as good as KG now, but will be much better in the future."  I think that's a fair way to look at things.

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Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2009, 12:42:09 PM »

Offline drza44

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Going forward from when, and better how?  No matter how you measure it KG was at worst one of the 2 best defensive players in the NBA last year.  He scores at a good efficiency without needing the ball.  And he's arguably the greatest passing power forward that ever lived.  Even when he isn't the leading scorer (like he was during the championship playoffs), he still facillitates everything that this offense does and the stats back that up.

Bosh is a better volume scorer, but on these Celtics you don't want that unless you plan for Pierce, Allen and everyone else to get fewer touches.  The defense takes a major step back without very much gain in team offense.  Doesn't seem like a recipe for a title this year to me.  Not even counting how much this kills Ubuntu for this season.  Or how it affects what Allen, Pierce and Rasheed decide to do this offseason.

If you're ready to scrap the drive for 18 for the next couple years while you reload around a Bosh/Rondo/Perk nucleus then maybe the deal works.  But practically speaking, I don't see how this trade helps either side because the vets on this team absolutely want to win now and would not be at all happy with this kind of trade.

Going forward from now, and better in pretty much every way except defense - and in a few years, his defense will be superior as well when KG's athleticism fades and Bosh continues to improve.  Bosh may be a volume scorer, but if he wants to score 20 a game on 50% shooting then he can do that on my team.  I don't care who scores the points, as long as someone scores the points and our team FG% is high.  Also, how does he facilitate everything this offense does?  I thought there was this guy named 'Rajon Rondo' on our team, and I thought he was a very good floor general too.  I know KG does a lot for the offense that doesn't necessarily show up in the stat sheets, but Bosh has a very similar skill set and would have the same effect on opposing defenses in our system.

I will grant you that this move could lose us this year - it would take time to fit Bosh into the system.  With that said, it's hard to say what effect it'll have on 'the vets'.  KG is a huge part of the team, but I think they also understand that this is a business, and you took a player who has 2 years of elite play left and swapped him for a player who has 10 years of elite play left.  I also think you underestimate the drive of Ray, Pierce and Sheed.  KG is a big part of this team's personality, but the Celtics have a team stocked full of players who are very driven, intense, ambitious individuals in their own rights. 

I like when I hear things like 'Bosh is better than KG at everything except defense, passing, and intangibles'...like that's not the majority of the game.  For that matter, Bosh is also better than prime Bill Russell at everything except defense, passing, and intangibles.  In other words, Bosh is a very good scorer who is average-to-below-average in those other "minor" parts of the game like defense, passing, and leadership.

And this isn't fantasy basketball.  You don't get to just cut-and-paste stats from one team onto another.  Bosh has averaged about 22 ppg over the last few years on about a 27% usage rate.  In his last few years in Minnesota KG also averaged about 22 ppg on about 27% usage, but in Boston it's been down to around 17 ppg on 23 or 24% usage.  Why is that?  Because in Boston you also have Pierce, Allen, and now Rondo using a lot of possessions.  So bring Bosh into Boston and either his scoring average is dropping because he isn't getting the ball as much, or the offense has to be rebuilt around him which means that the others aren't getting their touches.  And frankly, they aren't going to rebuild around Bosh with the current vets we have which means that scoring-wise Bosh's contributions in green would look an awful lot like KG's.  Only it wouldn't come with the all-world defense, leadership, and offense facillitating abilities that KG brings.

You ask how KG facillitates everything this offense does?  He does it by being a key cog in every set and having a go-to play with all of the other starters.  With Rondo they have the alley-oop and the on-ball screen/Rondo backdoor plays.  With Pierce and sometimes Ray he has the pick-and-roll.  With Ray he has the KG strong-side posts while Ray pops to the 3-point line with the option to shoot or pass play, as well as the pick-and-roll.  And with Perk he has the high-low where he essentially forces Perk the ball anytime he is anywhere near the rim.  And then, when he's not directly involved in the play, KG is out there setting picks like a crazy man both on- and off-the ball.  

There's a reason that when KG is on the floor the offense has fewer turnovers, more assists, and scores at a higher efficiency than when he's off the floor.  There's a reason that Big Baby replicated KG's scoring/assist averages in last year's playoffs but the overall offense wasn't nearly as efficient (even with Pierce, Allen and Rondo all playing much better than the previous year as individuals).  There's a reason that KG had the highest pair-wise +/- on the team with every other member of the starting line-up.  And that reason is that KG facilitates everything that this team does on both sides of the ball.  

It's a team effort, it's not like it's just KG, but if you remove KG and don't replace everything that he brings (which Bosh doesn't) then be prepared for the team to take a step back.  So again, if the goal is to reload and get ready to build for the future around Bosh/Rondo/Perk then yes, maybe this trade would make sense.  But if the goal is to give this team the best possible chance to win #s 18 and 19 in the next 2 years then this would be a silly trade for the Cs to make.

Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #92 on: November 11, 2009, 12:42:31 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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If anything we keep KG to keep LA from repeating. I will deal with the rebuild if it means stopping LA from gaining another title.
Back to wanting Joe fired.

Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #93 on: November 11, 2009, 12:45:53 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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For those saying Bosh could never win a championship:  how does he compare to Pau Gasol, another player with a fairly similar skill set?  As we all know, Pau owns a shiny new ring.  If he can win one, I see no reason why Bosh couldn't with a sufficient supporting cast.

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Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #94 on: November 11, 2009, 12:50:12 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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How did this thread get to 7 pages.  It would never happen.

Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #95 on: November 11, 2009, 12:51:50 PM »

Offline Eja117

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For those saying Bosh could never win a championship:  how does he compare to Pau Gasol, another player with a fairly similar skill set?  As we all know, Pau owns a shiny new ring.  If he can win one, I see no reason why Bosh couldn't with a sufficient supporting cast.

Roy this is just me, but you can say that about anyone. If you put Paris Hilton in the right situation she can win a ring. You just have to surround her with the proper cast.  Kobe at sg, Lebron at pf, D Howard at center, and KG at power forward, and the Celts bench. So why is everyone hating on Paris? This is what people used to say about KG and PP, and now look at them.

I just think when people say this about players they mean that player needs more help than a typical player is entitled to in order to win.

Whereas there are other players that are like "I'm going to put a team on my back and win one no matter who those guys are"

There have only been a small handful of those guys and I don't think Bosh is one of them. I don't think lots of guys are like that.

Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #96 on: November 11, 2009, 12:52:34 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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How did this thread get to 7 pages.  It would never happen.

No it happened. 7 Pages.

Seriously though it's a good point. Toronto would never, ever, do this.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2009, 12:55:40 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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For those saying Bosh could never win a championship:  how does he compare to Pau Gasol, another player with a fairly similar skill set?  As we all know, Pau owns a shiny new ring.  If he can win one, I see no reason why Bosh couldn't with a sufficient supporting cast.

Roy this is just me, but you can say that about anyone. If you put Paris Hilton in the right situation she can win a ring. You just have to surround her with the proper cast.  Kobe at sg, Lebron at pf, D Howard at center, and KG at power forward, and the Celts bench. So why is everyone hating on Paris? This is what people used to say about KG and PP, and now look at them.

I just think when people say this about players they mean that player needs more help than a typical player is entitled to in order to win.

Whereas there are other players that are like "I'm going to put a team on my back and win one no matter who those guys are"

There have only been a small handful of those guys and I don't think Bosh is one of them. I don't think lots of guys are like that.

What Roy is saying I think is that Bosh is good enough to win a title with a supporting cast comparable or close to what KG had.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #98 on: November 11, 2009, 12:55:50 PM »

Offline drza44

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How did this thread get to 7 pages.  It would never happen.

No it happened. 7 Pages.

Seriously though it's a good point. Toronto would never, ever, do this.

Neither would the Celtics.

Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #99 on: November 11, 2009, 12:55:54 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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For those saying Bosh could never win a championship:  how does he compare to Pau Gasol, another player with a fairly similar skill set?  As we all know, Pau owns a shiny new ring.  If he can win one, I see no reason why Bosh couldn't with a sufficient supporting cast.

Roy this is just me, but you can say that about anyone. If you put Paris Hilton in the right situation she can win a ring. You just have to surround her with the proper cast.  Kobe at sg, Lebron at pf, D Howard at center, and KG at power forward, and the Celts bench. So why is everyone hating on Paris? This is what people used to say about KG and PP, and now look at them.

I just think when people say this about players they mean that player needs more help than a typical player is entitled to in order to win.

Whereas there are other players that are like "I'm going to put a team on my back and win one no matter who those guys are"

There have only been a small handful of those guys and I don't think Bosh is one of them. I don't think lots of guys are like that.

Well, why would Chris Bosh need more help than Pau Gasol?  To me, they're similar players.  If anything, Bosh is better.

And yet, there Pau was, the second best player on a championship squad.  If Pau can win with Kobe and Lamer, I see no reason Bosh couldn't win with Pierce, Ray, Perk, Rondo, Rasheed, and our supporting cast.

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Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #100 on: November 11, 2009, 12:57:04 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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For those saying Bosh could never win a championship:  how does he compare to Pau Gasol, another player with a fairly similar skill set?  As we all know, Pau owns a shiny new ring.  If he can win one, I see no reason why Bosh couldn't with a sufficient supporting cast.
I think the implied point is that Bosh couldn't win being the best player on the team (and neither could Gasol).  He may not need be that for the next couple of years on the Celtics as PP can be that but if you extrapolate further out, Bosh would need to be the man on those teams.

For the record, Bosh is a nice player and could easily win a championship on say Miami with Wade but no way I trade KG for him right now.

Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #101 on: November 11, 2009, 01:00:40 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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For those saying Bosh could never win a championship:  how does he compare to Pau Gasol, another player with a fairly similar skill set?  As we all know, Pau owns a shiny new ring.  If he can win one, I see no reason why Bosh couldn't with a sufficient supporting cast.
I think the implied point is that Bosh couldn't win being the best player on the team (and neither could Gasol).  He may not need be that for the next couple of years on the Celtics as PP can be that but if you extrapolate further out, Bosh would need to be the man on those teams.

For the record, Bosh is a nice player and could easily win a championship on say Miami with Wade but no way I trade KG for him right now.

If Bosh is good enough to win with a strong supporting cast (i.e., right now), and would still give us a very strong nucleus going forward (Rondo, Bosh, maybe Perk), I don't know why anybody would say no to the trade (other than Toronto).

This trade only doesn't make sense if you feel that Bosh can't win a title now.  I don't see it that way.  Put him on our roster, and I think he's a superstar performer.

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Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #102 on: November 11, 2009, 01:04:42 PM »

Offline drza44

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For those saying Bosh could never win a championship:  how does he compare to Pau Gasol, another player with a fairly similar skill set?  As we all know, Pau owns a shiny new ring.  If he can win one, I see no reason why Bosh couldn't with a sufficient supporting cast.

Roy this is just me, but you can say that about anyone. If you put Paris Hilton in the right situation she can win a ring. You just have to surround her with the proper cast.  Kobe at sg, Lebron at pf, D Howard at center, and KG at power forward, and the Celts bench. So why is everyone hating on Paris? This is what people used to say about KG and PP, and now look at them.

I just think when people say this about players they mean that player needs more help than a typical player is entitled to in order to win.

Whereas there are other players that are like "I'm going to put a team on my back and win one no matter who those guys are"

There have only been a small handful of those guys and I don't think Bosh is one of them. I don't think lots of guys are like that.

What Roy is saying I think is that Bosh is good enough to win a title with a supporting cast comparable or close to what KG had.

That may be what he's saying, but I don't think it's true.  Like eja was referring to, there's a difference between being the focal point and being a supporting player.  As Gorman once said, a team gets its personality from it's best player.  The Lakers look exactly like a team-version of Kobe Bryant.  The Spurs look exactly like a team-version of Tim Duncan.  The early 00s Lakers looked exactly like a team version of Shaq.

These Celtics, when they're playing championship caliber ball, look exactly like a team version of KG: stifling defense as the priority, unselfish offense, edgy, team first, etc.  Pierce is a great player, but those descriptor words have only described him when he's played with KG.  When KG was out last year the team looked a lot more like Paul Pierce (scoring first, defense when necessary, more 1-on-1 offense based on brilliant individual moves)...and they just weren't a championship caliber team.  If you swap Bosh for KG, then he'd better be good enough to be the personality of the new Celtics...and he's just not. 

Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #103 on: November 11, 2009, 01:08:15 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Oh I get it... what started as a ridiculous trade proposal has just turned into a debate about whether a player of Chris Bosh's level could win a title with KG's supporting cast.

Not sure.

I will say that last year when KG went out (and obese filled his role) we were a SIGNIFICANTLY worse team.  Our defense went from amazing to pretty average.  And the main reason the Celtics win anything is because of their defense.  SOmething about replacing the defensive player of the year (a 7 footer with quickness, crazy wingspan and brilliant defensive basketball IQ) with some short fat 2nd rounder just made this team so mediocre that they struggled to beat the Chicago Bulls.  The difference between the Celtics with KG and the Celtics without KG was highlighted a couple weeks ago when we absolutely destroyed that same mediocre Chicago team by 30 points.  

Now Chris Bosh certainly isn't Glen Davis.   But I don't know enough about Bosh's defensive ability to really know how well he'd fill KG's shoes on this team.  Before joining Boston, KG was a 23 and 13 guy pretty consistently.  Sharing the wealth with his teammates turned him into a 18 and 8 guy at best.  His statistical decline probably has more to do with sharing the load with other scorers/rebounders than it has to do with his regression as a player (not to mention going from averaging 39 minutes to 32 minutes).  The thing that has remained consistent, however, is that KG is an absolute animal on defense.  And because of him, this team has the capacity to dominate.

Bosh has pretty consistently been a 22 and 10 guy.  I'd imagine his stats would have a similar drop on this team (18 and 8?) ...    but would he be capable of filling the shoes of KG on the defensive end?  I don't know.   Al Jefferson puts up points and rebounds too and I think everyone here will agree that he's the polar opposite of Garnett when it comes to preventing the other team from scoring.

I guess the question is... would upgrading Obese to Bosh change this team from "mediocre" to "champion level"...   I really think we massively overachieved to even beat Chicago last year.  Without KG, we were not even close to being the same Celtics.  It was the difference between the Spurs with Duncan and the Spurs without Duncan.    So I guess you could ask the same question... would the Spurs be a championship contender with Bosh instead of Duncan?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 01:16:21 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh
« Reply #104 on: November 11, 2009, 01:09:36 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Quote
The Lakers look exactly like a team-version of Kobe Bryant.

They do?  How so?

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

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