Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh

[Michael Anthony]

Great discussion all around. Two observations - lots of posters say A) Bosh is a terrible defender and B) Toronto would never do the trade.

A) Toronoto is +8 on defense with Bosh on the floor. Reggie Evans, a tough-minded defender and great rebounder, is his backup.

I am not saying he is All-D, but he is solid enough on a terrible defensive team. Put him with Perk, Rondo and Tom T before we call him out.

B) Who is Toronto going to get instead? Garnett might be their best option.

Remember, Bosh has to agree to a six year extension wherever he goes so terrible teams are out. Plus, Toronto is not giving him away. Only Portland and Miami make any sense - good fit, good assets - and I think Toronto takes Garnett over Beasley and Aldridge.

[drza44]

The Lakers look exactly like a team-version of Kobe Bryant.

They do?  How so?

They are an offense/first, defense when necessary team (much like Kobe).  They will pile it up on teams inferior to them (like Kobe's 81), but they will quit when punched in the mouth (like Kobe game 7 against the Suns or the 39-point blowout to us).  Convesely, when people doubt them they go all out to prove them wrong (like Kobe during the trial, Kobe after Shaq, and the Lakers last year when people questioned their toughness and they wanted to prove them wrong).  They are all about moving the ball and team execution when things are going well, but devolve to 1-on-1 basketball when things aren't going so good...again like Kobe.

[Eja117]

For those saying Bosh could never win a championship:  how does he compare to Pau Gasol, another player with a fairly similar skill set?  As we all know, Pau owns a shiny new ring.  If he can win one, I see no reason why Bosh couldn't with a sufficient supporting cast.

Roy this is just me, but you can say that about anyone. If you put Paris Hilton in the right situation she can win a ring. You just have to surround her with the proper cast.  Kobe at sg, Lebron at pf, D Howard at center, and KG at power forward, and the Celts bench. So why is everyone hating on Paris? This is what people used to say about KG and PP, and now look at them.

I just think when people say this about players they mean that player needs more help than a typical player is entitled to in order to win.

Whereas there are other players that are like "I'm going to put a team on my back and win one no matter who those guys are"

There have only been a small handful of those guys and I don't think Bosh is one of them. I don't think lots of guys are like that.

Well, why would Chris Bosh need more help than Pau Gasol?  To me, they're similar players.  If anything, Bosh is better.

And yet, there Pau was, the second best player on a championship squad.  If Pau can win with Kobe and Lamer, I see no reason Bosh couldn't win with Pierce, Ray, Perk, Rondo, Rasheed, and our supporting cast.

Fair enough, but I'm not sure he'd be the 2nd best player on our squad, and I'm not sure he can play or will play the defense necessary to win a ring.

It's not so much that I think the team wouldn't be very good, in fact I think in a lot of ways he could be better than KG, but when he has to win a ring against Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, and Howard I think KG is far better equipped to take a team in that direction and the only player on that list going away is Duncan, but then the Blazers may take his place.  
It makes sense from a longevity view, and I'd way rather see him here than with Bron, but still. Also I think it would send a horrid message to the league, like "Juuust as a legendary player like KG that led us to a title was going to get another ring after all that rehab, we shipped him out for a younger unproven player."
If they do that they BETTER win a ring or the team would be pretty [dang] mad and so would the fan base.
It's kind of like trying to trade Tom Brady for Philip Rivers and then saying "Oh but look. Rivers is younger and didn't snap his ACL and isn't married to a super model and Brady is just a product of the guys around him. Anyone can be good throwing to Moss and being coached by Belichek"

Careful what thee wisheth for

[Chris]

I guess the question is... would upgrading Obese to Bosh change this team from "mediocre" to "champion level"...   I really think we massively overachieved to even beat Chicago last year.  Without KG, we were not even close to being the same Celtics.  It was the difference between the Spurs with Duncan and the Spurs without Duncan.    So I guess you could ask the same question... would the Spurs be a championship contender with Bosh instead of Duncan?

I think the Spurs would be a championship contender with Bosh instead of Duncan.  

Bosh is a VERY good player.  He is not as good as KG in his prime, but he is just a step or two down.  He is a very underrated defender (although it is hard to tell on the Raptors right now, because they play D'Antoni team defense).  

I actually have little doubt that if the C's had Bosh as their starting PF in the playoffs last year, they would have at the very least been in the finals, and they likely would have beaten the Lakers.  

[LarBrd33]

I guess the question is... would upgrading Obese to Bosh change this team from "mediocre" to "champion level"...   I really think we massively overachieved to even beat Chicago last year.  Without KG, we were not even close to being the same Celtics.  It was the difference between the Spurs with Duncan and the Spurs without Duncan.    So I guess you could ask the same question... would the Spurs be a championship contender with Bosh instead of Duncan?

I think the Spurs would be a championship contender with Bosh instead of Duncan.  

Bosh is a VERY good player.  He is not as good as KG in his prime, but he is just a step or two down.  He is a very underrated defender (although it is hard to tell on the Raptors right now, because they play D'Antoni team defense).  

I actually have little doubt that if the C's had Bosh as their starting PF in the playoffs last year, they would have at the very least been in the finals, and they likely would have beaten the Lakers.  

I think you're higher on Bosh than I am.   I figured he was more towards the Al Jefferson level than the Duncan/KG level.

I don't follow Bosh enough to have much of an opinion though.  He always seemed just like some guy who puts up 20 and 10 on a bad team.

[greenwise]

I don't care about Bosh really. He is a great player and already a star in the league...

But when you have one of the best forwards in the history of the game, one of the most intense winning players ever, one of the most talented all time guy and genuine team oriented player...you just don't think of any other alternative. KG is the man, and he will retire a Celtic. It's just like that.

#5 will be up in the rafters with a couple more NBA titles to add to our current 17.

Go C's!

[Chris]

I guess the question is... would upgrading Obese to Bosh change this team from "mediocre" to "champion level"...   I really think we massively overachieved to even beat Chicago last year.  Without KG, we were not even close to being the same Celtics.  It was the difference between the Spurs with Duncan and the Spurs without Duncan.    So I guess you could ask the same question... would the Spurs be a championship contender with Bosh instead of Duncan?

I think the Spurs would be a championship contender with Bosh instead of Duncan.  

Bosh is a VERY good player.  He is not as good as KG in his prime, but he is just a step or two down.  He is a very underrated defender (although it is hard to tell on the Raptors right now, because they play D'Antoni team defense).  

I actually have little doubt that if the C's had Bosh as their starting PF in the playoffs last year, they would have at the very least been in the finals, and they likely would have beaten the Lakers.  

I think you're higher on Bosh than I am.   I figured he was more towards the Al Jefferson level than the Duncan/KG level.

I don't follow Bosh enough to have much of an opinion though.  He always seemed just like some guy who puts up 20 and 10 on a bad team.

I think he is somewhere in between.  Al Jefferson is a TERRIBLE defender...like one of the worst in the league.  I would put Bosh just above guys like Pau Gasol, and Carlos Boozer, but below Duncan and KG (who are two of the best PF ever).

[drza44]

Great discussion all around. Two observations - lots of posters say A) Bosh is a terrible defender and B) Toronto would never do the trade.

A) Toronoto is +8 on defense with Bosh on the floor. Reggie Evans, a tough-minded defender and great rebounder, is his backup.

I am not saying he is All-D, but he is solid enough on a terrible defensive team. Put him with Perk, Rondo and Tom T before we call him out.

B) Who is Toronto going to get instead? Garnett might be their best option.

Remember, Bosh has to agree to a six year extension wherever he goes so terrible teams are out. Plus, Toronto is not giving him away. Only Portland and Miami make any sense - good fit, good assets - and I think Toronto takes Garnett over Beasley and Aldridge.

A) You are looking at a ridiculously small sample size...7 games?  How about the entirety of last year, where the Raptors gave up about 2 fewer ppg with him off the floor?  Or the last few years as a whole, where in general the defense is about the same with him as without him?  Also, even in this 7 game sample, the Raptors are giving up 120 points/100 possessions when Bosh is IN the game...that is AWFUL!  Even when KG had absolute mud ducks for defensive teammates he never sniffed a defense that bad.

B) I'm not concerned about what the Raptors would do.  I think this is a dumb trade for the Celtics...

[drza44]

I guess the question is... would upgrading Obese to Bosh change this team from "mediocre" to "champion level"...   I really think we massively overachieved to even beat Chicago last year.  Without KG, we were not even close to being the same Celtics.  It was the difference between the Spurs with Duncan and the Spurs without Duncan.    So I guess you could ask the same question... would the Spurs be a championship contender with Bosh instead of Duncan?

I think the Spurs would be a championship contender with Bosh instead of Duncan.  

Bosh is a VERY good player.  He is not as good as KG in his prime, but he is just a step or two down.  He is a very underrated defender (although it is hard to tell on the Raptors right now, because they play D'Antoni team defense).  

I actually have little doubt that if the C's had Bosh as their starting PF in the playoffs last year, they would have at the very least been in the finals, and they likely would have beaten the Lakers.  

I think you're higher on Bosh than I am.   I figured he was more towards the Al Jefferson level than the Duncan/KG level.

I don't follow Bosh enough to have much of an opinion though.  He always seemed just like some guy who puts up 20 and 10 on a bad team.

I think he is somewhere in between.  Al Jefferson is a TERRIBLE defender...like one of the worst in the league.  I would put Bosh just above guys like Pau Gasol, and Carlos Boozer, but below Duncan and KG (who are two of the best PF ever).

In my opinion Bosh is a level below Gasol defensively, actually.  Gasol pre-LA was still a much better shot-blocker and help defender than Bosh, and Gasol is now a much tougher on-ball defender than Bosh has ever been.

Bosh has the length and quickness to be a decent defender, but he lacks physical toughness on D, lacks natural shotblocking ability, and also generally seems to be a step slow in his rotations.  He's just not a very good defensive player.

[Chris]

I guess the question is... would upgrading Obese to Bosh change this team from "mediocre" to "champion level"...   I really think we massively overachieved to even beat Chicago last year.  Without KG, we were not even close to being the same Celtics.  It was the difference between the Spurs with Duncan and the Spurs without Duncan.    So I guess you could ask the same question... would the Spurs be a championship contender with Bosh instead of Duncan?

I think the Spurs would be a championship contender with Bosh instead of Duncan.  

Bosh is a VERY good player.  He is not as good as KG in his prime, but he is just a step or two down.  He is a very underrated defender (although it is hard to tell on the Raptors right now, because they play D'Antoni team defense).  

I actually have little doubt that if the C's had Bosh as their starting PF in the playoffs last year, they would have at the very least been in the finals, and they likely would have beaten the Lakers.  

I think you're higher on Bosh than I am.   I figured he was more towards the Al Jefferson level than the Duncan/KG level.

I don't follow Bosh enough to have much of an opinion though.  He always seemed just like some guy who puts up 20 and 10 on a bad team.

I think he is somewhere in between.  Al Jefferson is a TERRIBLE defender...like one of the worst in the league.  I would put Bosh just above guys like Pau Gasol, and Carlos Boozer, but below Duncan and KG (who are two of the best PF ever).

In my opinion Bosh is a level below Gasol defensively, actually.  Gasol pre-LA was still a much better shot-blocker and help defender than Bosh, and Gasol is now a much tougher on-ball defender than Bosh has ever been.

Bosh has the length and quickness to be a decent defender, but he lacks physical toughness on D, lacks natural shotblocking ability, and also generally seems to be a step slow in his rotations.  He's just not a very good defensive player.

Honestly, I think it is tough to see right now.  I think he was actually a much better defender in his first few years, before Toronto started trying to be Phoenix north.  In the last few years, you are right, he has gotten softer on defense (similar to the way Gasol did his last year or two in Memphis).  But as we saw with Pierce, when a guy has the ability to be a great defender, the system they are in, and players around them can be night and day with their performance. 

I think if you put Bosh next to Perk, allowing him to be a bit of a "roamer" like KG, and use his quickness and length to cause problems, he would be a much better defender than he is right now.

[jambr380]

Great discussion all around. Two observations - lots of posters say A) Bosh is a terrible defender and B) Toronto would never do the trade.

A) Toronoto is +8 on defense with Bosh on the floor. Reggie Evans, a tough-minded defender and great rebounder, is his backup.

I am not saying he is All-D, but he is solid enough on a terrible defensive team. Put him with Perk, Rondo and Tom T before we call him out.

B) Who is Toronto going to get instead? Garnett might be their best option.

Remember, Bosh has to agree to a six year extension wherever he goes so terrible teams are out. Plus, Toronto is not giving him away. Only Portland and Miami make any sense - good fit, good assets - and I think Toronto takes Garnett over Beasley and Aldridge.

This is a good point. The thing is, Toronto would have to think of themselves as possible contenders if they were to take on KG- since he doesn't have a ton of years left in the league. If they think it will be a while, I think they would be psyched to get a player like Aldridge. Beasley is alright, but it would take additional players to make that work, since he isn't totally proven yet.

As for the Gasol/Bosh comparison, I think it is a pretty good one. I would say they are both excellent 2nd best players to have on a team. On the Celtics, he would be in a tie for first, but since there are so many good players here already, it would be alright...I guess this debate could go on forever...

[Birdbrain]

I just seems weird to me that people think that we are definitely going to win one or two more titles with an aging KG, but have NO CHANCE with young [semi] superstar in Bosh. Does the mindset of the team fly out the window with trading KG? Is Bosh really that bad? Other posters have said this, but with Big Baby playing most of the minutes at PF, we did very well in the playoffs last year. You are telling me that with Bosh and Sheed, along with Baby, that we have no chance?

I don't know. Maybe I am being too rational about this whole thing, but I believe it would be a no-brainer and if you all think that Celtics management wouldn't be all over this, then you need to re-think things. KG led us to the promiseland. I just hope he doesn't lead us to the lottery by holding on to him for too long. He will always be productive, but we are fools to think that the big three are going to always be at 2007-08 form. You always need to look toward the future and take opportuities that present themselves...don't worry, though- this isn't one isn't be presented anytime soon.

Yes you thinking a trade of KG for Bosh is rational.  I choose to think the opposite of you and this trade idea.

[Birdbrain]

Great discussion all around. Two observations - lots of posters say A) Bosh is a terrible defender and B) Toronto would never do the trade.

A) Toronoto is +8 on defense with Bosh on the floor. Reggie Evans, a tough-minded defender and great rebounder, is his backup.

I am not saying he is All-D, but he is solid enough on a terrible defensive team. Put him with Perk, Rondo and Tom T before we call him out.

B) Who is Toronto going to get instead? Garnett might be their best option.

Remember, Bosh has to agree to a six year extension wherever he goes so terrible teams are out. Plus, Toronto is not giving him away. Only Portland and Miami make any sense - good fit, good assets - and I think Toronto takes Garnett over Beasley and Aldridge.

Bosh is horrible defender and using a +/- on the worst defensive team in the league doesn't prove otherwise.

[Eja117]

One reason I'd have to be against it is that I think you'd likely be trading away one or two rings (maybe now) for one or two rings (maybe later). I'd rather get em now and start over with KGs salary than try to win later with Bosh, Rondo, Perk, and maybe one other guy, which would be PP for a few years and then try to be someone else

[Who]

I agree that KG is the better player currently but I'd still be willing to make the trade because Bosh opens up a lot of options for the Celtics future.

I think Bosh is capable of playing very good defense. He shows it in flashes. The capacity for it is there. I believe that if you put him on a team (1) with quality defensive players (2) that is committed to defense (3) and has strong defensive coaching ... Bosh will then fulfill his ability on that side of the ball.

Playing alongside a player like Bargnani has had a terrible effect on Bosh. His defensive effort + focus gets worse the more time Bargnani spends on the court (gradually getting worse game by game). It must be demoralizing playing alongside a guy who hurts you so badly defensively. And it's not like Bargnani is the only Raptors player costing the team points on that end of the floor. It's a bad sign (mentally) that Bosh is effected so much by teammates who coast defensively but I think it's something he'll overcome if placed in a good situation.

I also think Bosh is a very good passer particularly off the high post (less so in iso's). Leadership is an issue with Bosh. He hasn't grasped that yet. 

The Celtics would be a better team with KG in the lineup this season. Garnett does more for the team defensively + as a passer + is a more versatile scorer. It's hard to say how long that will be true for due to KG's age and possible decline + Bosh's youth and possible development. It could be just one season or as many as 3 seasons where KG is the superior player. Impossible to say.

Anyway, I'd make the trade because I like the options Bosh gives the Celtics for the next 6-8 years versus the benefits of having a superior player today in KG. I'm willing to take that loss for increased opportunities tomorrow.