Toronto Idea - Garnett for Bosh

[KCattheStripe]

Kevin Garnett is the best player in basketball. He is the best player on the court for the 2009-10 season.   The things he does on a basketball court show up in the win column, not the stat column.  How crazy could you possibly be to want to trade KG, ever.    He resurrected the franchise is on title #2 this year, no doubt.  If the Celtics are healthy they win the championship, case closed.   Talking about trading Garnett is crazy.   Have you seen the numbers on this team from when he arrived in 2007 to now in the games he has played.   For the games that Garnett has played in from 2007-2009 the Celtics are the best team of all-time their numbers are ridiculous.    39 Point Final win, 29-3 start, 27-2 start, 7-1 start, and that is 63-6 by the way, 18 wins in a row, 11 wins in a row.   Even suggesting Garnett not be on this Celtics team is ridiculous. Trade Garnett, you might as well move the franchise, change the name, and call us the Mighty Ducks or something. 

I agree, except for the last part. That's just silly.

[star18]

Yes but if there is one guy who led this team to the title in the past 23 years, its Kevin Garnett

[CelticG1]

The funny thing in all of this is that I wonder how long we would endure just "Competing" in the event of a Bosh-KG trade.

Yes it would make up for the Post-Bird/Mchale/Parish years, but how long would it be before unrest would come to Boston because we weren't satisfied with what the "Future Celtics" were doing?

Even the 2nd round playoffs or even conference finals that Perk/Rondo/Bosh could promise would get old after a couple of times...then we'd be looking to blow up the team again...

Well we would still have to build around Rondo/Bosh/Perk it's not like we'd just stop and say thats good enough, at least I hope not. When we traded for Ray Ray we didn't just stand still and say "oh thats good enough to be a decent playoff team". We then went out and got KG. Then after that we didn't say that was good enough cause it wasn't. Then we went out and got House and Posey. We would obviously need to build around those guys and maximize what we had. I think if we traded Bosh for KG it's not like we would be bumped from the top 4 contending teams or anything.

The thing with getting Bosh would be that even if it was a slight downgrade (because I don't think it would be a huge downgrade) We would still be in the mix for the next couple years to win a championship. But not only that, if we had Bosh for 5 or 6 years than thats just extending the window a bit more. We might lose guys here or there or guys will get older like Pierce and Allen but we will have 2 or maybe 3 very solid players to build around for those upcoming years rather than just falling flat

[CelticG1]

Yes but if there is one guy who led this team to the title in the past 23 years, its Kevin Garnett

Just because Kevin Garnett led us to that title doesn't mean that no one else ever will or can

[Bahku]

Kevin Garnett is the best player in basketball. He is the best player on the court for the 2009-10 season.   The things he does on a basketball court show up in the win column, not the stat column.  How crazy could you possibly be to want to trade KG, ever.    He resurrected the franchise is on title #2 this year, no doubt.  If the Celtics are healthy they win the championship, case closed.   Talking about trading Garnett is crazy.   Have you seen the numbers on this team from when he arrived in 2007 to now in the games he has played.   For the games that Garnett has played in from 2007-2009 the Celtics are the best team of all-time their numbers are ridiculous.    39 Point Final win, 29-3 start, 27-2 start, 7-1 start, and that is 63-6 by the way, 18 wins in a row, 11 wins in a row.   Even suggesting Garnett not be on this Celtics team is ridiculous. Trade Garnett, you might as well move the franchise, change the name, and call us the Mighty Ducks or something. 

I agree, except for the last part. That's just silly.

I hope the Celtics see the value in keeping KG here and retiring his number, and I can't imagine this trade ever going down ... there's just not enough of it that makes sense. And while I agree with much of what you say here, and while KG is one of my favorite players ever to wear green, I couldn't (with clear conscience) call him "the best player in basketball". I, too, think it would be crazy to trade him, not just for his talents but also for the chemistry that this team has developed since his coming here. I also have to say, though, pertaining to your last sentence, that Paul Pierce is the core and true spirit of this team, and that he stands more for what this team is about than anyone else ... and if you asked KG, he'd agree.

[D Dub]

Holy crap, no!

Garnett= shot at championship

Bosh=  rebuilding

That's your first Tommy Point.
 
Chris Bosh is hands down the most over-rated player in the league.

I don't know about that.  He's fourth in both points and rebounds per game, the only guy in both categories.  29 and 12 is pretty darn impressive, especially alongside 52% shooting.

Bosh isn't great defensively, but I think if you put him within a defensive framework (rather than next to Bargnani, Calderon, and Bellinelli), he'd be pretty decent.  He bulked up a bit to better defend post players.

How about this stat.  Number of times owned by Mikki Moore in a playoff series:
Bosh: 1
KG:  0

Bosh may fill up a box score, but he's soft like charmin.  He'll never be the best player on a championship team.

[drza44]

ok...maybe we ought to lay this out a little with some numbers.

Garnett, at 24 yrs old:
22ppg 11.4 rpg 5.0 apg 1.79 bpg

Bosh, last season @ 24 yrs old:
22.7ppg 10.0rpg 2.5 apg 1.0 bpg

Garnett's total wins, first six seasons 223
Bosh's wins to date (6 seasons) 214

They're not the same players but Bosh is no bargain basement knock off. I wouldn't trade Garnett because I'm a fan, because I love the team, and I love what Garnett brings to it. An objective person would do this trade in a new york minute.

Well, if we're playing with numbers, we should be accurate and a bit more complete. 

1) Looking at total wins in the first 6 seasons is extremely misleading.  The '99 lockout cut off half of Garnett's 4th season, so you're looking at a smaller starting value.  If you look at total record, KG's Wolves were 233 - 227 vs Bosh's Raptors at 214 - 278. In other words, through 6 seasons KG's Wolves were over .500 and Bosh's Raptors are WAY under .500. 

(And that's not even accounting for the East/West difference, or the fact that the Wolves only won 26 games during KG's rookie year when he didn't even start most of the year.  If you look in year's 3 - 6 KG's Wolves were 167 - 129 while Bosh's Raptors were 148 - 180 )

2) Let's add another player to the mix and modify a bit:

Garnett, at 23 yrs old:
22.9ppg 11.8 rpg 5.0 apg 1.6 bpg; 2nd in MVP vote; 50 wins

Bosh, last season @ 24 yrs old:
22.7ppg 10.0rpg 2.5 apg 1.0 bpg; 33 wins

Shareef Abdur-Rahim, at 23 yrs old:
20.3 ppg 10.1 rpg 3.3 apg 1.1 bpg; 22 wins

On the whole, Bosh's results look more like Abdur-Rahim's than KG's at that age.  There's a reason that no matter who his teammates are KG stays at the top of the league in adjusted plus-minus...there's a reason why the defense went to crap last season when he went down (and it's not just that the bench big men weren't good, because the defense was still elite when Rondo/Allen/Pierce/KG and ANY of our other big men were on the court).

I like Bosh.  He went to my alma mater.  He's a very good young player.  But he isn't KG...not even the attenuated KG we've got now.  As someone else pointed out, the Cs didn't give KG the defensive vibe, he gave it to them.  If he leaves, the defense leaves with him.  And while Bosh's offense is nice, keep in mind that KG's scoring dropped because of team role not ability...if Bosh is scoring 20+ points here without KG's passing ability that means fewer shots/touches for everyone else...also not a good look if you're expecting this to be a title team.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Atzar]

That's all very nice, but KG isn't 24.  I don't see why that comp was brought up in the first place.  We aren't arguing who was the best player at age X, we're arguing who will be a better player going forward.  While I love KG, that answer is Bosh.

[drza44]

That's all very nice, but KG isn't 24.  I don't see why that comp was brought up in the first place.  We aren't arguing who was the best player at age X, we're arguing who will be a better player going forward.  While I love KG, that answer is Bosh.

Going forward from when, and better how?  No matter how you measure it KG was at worst one of the 2 best defensive players in the NBA last year.  He scores at a good efficiency without needing the ball.  And he's arguably the greatest passing power forward that ever lived.  Even when he isn't the leading scorer (like he was during the championship playoffs), he still facillitates everything that this offense does and the stats back that up.

Bosh is a better volume scorer, but on these Celtics you don't want that unless you plan for Pierce, Allen and everyone else to get fewer touches.  The defense takes a major step back without very much gain in team offense.  Doesn't seem like a recipe for a title this year to me.  Not even counting how much this kills Ubuntu for this season.  Or how it affects what Allen, Pierce and Rasheed decide to do this offseason.

If you're ready to scrap the drive for 18 for the next couple years while you reload around a Bosh/Rondo/Perk nucleus then maybe the deal works.  But practically speaking, I don't see how this trade helps either side because the vets on this team absolutely want to win now and would not be at all happy with this kind of trade.

[Atzar]

That's all very nice, but KG isn't 24.  I don't see why that comp was brought up in the first place.  We aren't arguing who was the best player at age X, we're arguing who will be a better player going forward.  While I love KG, that answer is Bosh.

Going forward from when, and better how?  No matter how you measure it KG was at worst one of the 2 best defensive players in the NBA last year.  He scores at a good efficiency without needing the ball.  And he's arguably the greatest passing power forward that ever lived.  Even when he isn't the leading scorer (like he was during the championship playoffs), he still facillitates everything that this offense does and the stats back that up.

Bosh is a better volume scorer, but on these Celtics you don't want that unless you plan for Pierce, Allen and everyone else to get fewer touches.  The defense takes a major step back without very much gain in team offense.  Doesn't seem like a recipe for a title this year to me.  Not even counting how much this kills Ubuntu for this season.  Or how it affects what Allen, Pierce and Rasheed decide to do this offseason.

If you're ready to scrap the drive for 18 for the next couple years while you reload around a Bosh/Rondo/Perk nucleus then maybe the deal works.  But practically speaking, I don't see how this trade helps either side because the vets on this team absolutely want to win now and would not be at all happy with this kind of trade.

Going forward from now, and better in pretty much every way except defense - and in a few years, his defense will be superior as well when KG's athleticism fades and Bosh continues to improve.  Bosh may be a volume scorer, but if he wants to score 20 a game on 50% shooting then he can do that on my team.  I don't care who scores the points, as long as someone scores the points and our team FG% is high.  Also, how does he facilitate everything this offense does?  I thought there was this guy named 'Rajon Rondo' on our team, and I thought he was a very good floor general too.  I know KG does a lot for the offense that doesn't necessarily show up in the stat sheets, but Bosh has a very similar skill set and would have the same effect on opposing defenses in our system.

I will grant you that this move could lose us this year - it would take time to fit Bosh into the system.  With that said, it's hard to say what effect it'll have on 'the vets'.  KG is a huge part of the team, but I think they also understand that this is a business, and you took a player who has 2 years of elite play left and swapped him for a player who has 10 years of elite play left.  I also think you underestimate the drive of Ray, Pierce and Sheed.  KG is a big part of this team's personality, but the Celtics have a team stocked full of players who are very driven, intense, ambitious individuals in their own rights. 

[greenwise]

Kevin Garnett is the best player in basketball. He is the best player on the court for the 2009-10 season.   The things he does on a basketball court show up in the win column, not the stat column.  How crazy could you possibly be to want to trade KG, ever.    He resurrected the franchise is on title #2 this year, no doubt.  If the Celtics are healthy they win the championship, case closed.   Talking about trading Garnett is crazy.   Have you seen the numbers on this team from when he arrived in 2007 to now in the games he has played.   For the games that Garnett has played in from 2007-2009 the Celtics are the best team of all-time their numbers are ridiculous.    39 Point Final win, 29-3 start, 27-2 start, 7-1 start, and that is 63-6 by the way, 18 wins in a row, 11 wins in a row.   Even suggesting Garnett not be on this Celtics team is ridiculous. Trade Garnett, you might as well move the franchise, change the name, and call us the Mighty Ducks or something. 

TP! Well written

[star18]

Yes but if there is one guy who led this team to the title in the past 23 years, its Kevin Garnett

Just because Kevin Garnett led us to that title doesn't mean that no one else ever will or can

Until Kevin Garnett retires he will be the only guy to lead us to a title.    KG is in green until he joins the Birds, Russells, Havliceks up in the rafters as title winning hall of famers who got their numbers retired.   Same thing with Pierce.  Hopefully same thing with Ray Allen. 

KG isn't getting traded for anyone, case closed.   He's not playing on another NBA team, case closed.     Now maybe if Stop & Shop starts producing Mr.T/LBJ cereal in mass quantities, I will consider a trade for the rights to that cereal so I can eat box after box for breakfast.   Until then Garnett is a Celtic forever.

[greenwise]

It's amazing how people just change their minds or move on without the franchise players. Months ago, KG was the savior, Perkins the future and so on...now we talk Bosh. I really don't get it. We have many stars and some stars in the making. I don't see the needs for any roster dramatic changes. The only things to improve would be the 11th-15th spots maybe, that's all

[Bahku]

I get a bit perturbed at all the trade idea threads ... not that it isn't fun to speculate, but "if it ain't broke, why try to fix it?" ... If there was a possibility of getting a decent player for say, the end-of-the-bench players, (TA, Scal or Giddens), then I'd be ok with it ... but the rest of the team is strong and deep, and producing a chemistry that will be hard for any team to beat. Why mess with a great roster?

[Birdbrain]

I have a bit more faith in the fact that DA is aware of the horrendous defense that Bosh plays and will never trade him for a player like KG. I do agree though if you are really big into PPG then you may think Bosh is a worthy of being a C.