Davis vs. Powe: February poll

[Scalablob990]

How about passing the [dang] ball? I think that puts plenty of distance myself.

Do the people who think Powe is a ballhog, incapable of passing the ball ever consider the fact that maybe this is what the coaching staff wants Powe to do if he's in a one on one situation?  Powe averages 4+ shots a game in about 16 minutes. Most of these shots are taken with the second team on the floor. These are good percentage plays for the Celtics with the second team because Powe will make half of these shots or go to the line.    

Doc preaches ball movement. I don't think Doc wants Powe to do this when the whole team starts collapsing on him and he's incapable of passing the ball to an open man.

I believe most of the times when Powe is double-teamed, he'll try to get the ball to an open man. But let me ask you, how often does a bench player averaging 6+ pts per game get double-teamed?  I don't think very often and that's why Powe has the green light to go against anybody one on one.  If Rivers frowned on Powe taking it one on one, I doubt Powe would be getting 16 minutes per game and Powe would have been instructed to stop doing this a long time ago.

Expo, as a Powe fan i'd rather Leon stopped doing the iso's and did what he's better at which is putbacks and rebounding. Leon makes me nervous as hell when he's bringing the ball in from 10ft+. It reminds me of Perkins when he does it, but Perkins is awful at it (gotta stop bringing the ball down with you perk).

[EJPLAYA]

Do any of you think Powe's 20 point game in the finals came out of nowhere? Of course not... he was playing at an extremely high level the entire year and if you couldn't see that you're probably blind.

Powe has been mediocre this year, but last year he was playing at a borderline all-star level on a per-minute basis. So it's easy to see the potential.

Big Baby, on the other hand, has always been below average and I don't understand what other people could possibly see in him.

Powe caught LA off guard. I loved his performance in game 2. But do you think he will ever be able to uncork 20 points again against LA, now that they know who he is?

Hearing Powe mentioned in the same paragraph with all-star level is a bit over the top. 

Baby can at least lean on Duncan, Bynum, big Z, Varajao, etc. Powe struggles a ton against physical 6-10+ dudes. Baby can pass and handle the ball better. Baby moves his feet better on perimeter D against the bigs with range.

I still think it is a close call between the 2. Powe is a better rebounder, scorer (they're equally bad scoring against the above mentioned names), and is ripped.

Caught them off guard?! You have got to be kidding me! He had 20 games in last years reg season that he scored in double digits. 4 more in the playoffs prior to his big game against LA. You may not have been paying attention to how well Powe played last year, but I guarantee you that Phil wasn't caught off guard that Powe could come out and play at a high level.

If all BBD is good for is to LEAN on these big guys, then let's just go out and sign some big fat guy that is 350 pounds. I guess we could just wait a few more years and BBD will be there...

BBD is a very nice guy, and is much quicker a foot than you would expect a fat man to be, but his "intangibles" that everyone seems to love are one of the biggest myths thrown out there we have ever had.

Give me Powe's ability to score in the post, excellent rebounding, ability to draw charges, and ability to draw fouls on guys in his post moves, and you can have the intangibles...

[yoursweatersux]

This is absolutely absurd. Powe all of the way.

Powe has more ppg in fewer minutes at a higher field goal percentage. Plus, he's a better rebounder. Baby can't finish at the rim, and his outside shot is streaky at best.

And while I'm always the first to admit stats aren't the be-all end-all of player evaluations, check this out.

Powe's PER this year:       15.0
Big Baby's PER this year:    9.2

That's a massive difference. Powe is clearly superior to Baby this year. But what's truly hilarious is that Powe is STILL better after COMPLETELY REGRESSING FROM LAST YEAR.

Powe's PER last year:        20.9!!!!!!!!!!!
Big Baby's PER last year:    11.3

Do any of you think Powe's 20 point game in the finals came out of nowhere? Of course not... he was playing at an extremely high level the entire year and if you couldn't see that you're probably blind.

Powe has been mediocre this year, but last year he was playing at a borderline all-star level on a per-minute basis. So it's easy to see the potential.

Big Baby, on the other hand, has always been below average and I don't understand what other people could possibly see in him.

I second Blob's post!  [dang], you took the sentiments right out my keyboard!  TP for you! 

Hey, that was my post!! And my tommy point

I gave you the TP, I only agreed with Blob saying nice post to you!

My bad! haha.

But as for Powe unleashing another 20 on the Lakers... well that probably won't happen if we meet up in the finals for two reasons.
1. The LA defense has gotten tremendously better. It'll be much harder for ALL of our players to put up points on them, particularly for our front line with the presence of Bynum and Gasol's improvement on D.
2. Powe hasn't been playing as well this year. Obviously, I expect that given another year or so he'll claw his way back up to a PER similar to the fantastic 20.9 he had last year, but for this year I'm just going to have to accept that he's under-performing and I can't see any reason why that would change halfway through the season.

Nonetheless, Big Baby probably has a CEILING of posting a PER similar to what Powe puts up in an off-year.

[expobear]

How about passing the [dang] ball? I think that puts plenty of distance myself.

Do the people who think Powe is a ballhog, incapable of passing the ball ever consider the fact that maybe this is what the coaching staff wants Powe to do if he's in a one on one situation?  Powe averages 4+ shots a game in about 16 minutes. Most of these shots are taken with the second team on the floor. These are good percentage plays for the Celtics with the second team because Powe will make half of these shots or go to the line.    

Doc preaches ball movement. I don't think Doc wants Powe to do this when the whole team starts collapsing on him and he's incapable of passing the ball to an open man.

I believe most of the times when Powe is double-teamed, he'll try to get the ball to an open man. But let me ask you, how often does a bench player averaging 6+ pts per game get double-teamed?  I don't think very often and that's why Powe has the green light to go against anybody one on one.  If Rivers frowned on Powe taking it one on one, I doubt Powe would be getting 16 minutes per game and Powe would have been instructed to stop doing this a long time ago.

Expo, as a Powe fan i'd rather Leon stopped doing the iso's and did what he's better at which is putbacks and rebounding. Leon makes me nervous as hell when he's bringing the ball in from 10ft+. It reminds me of Perkins when he does it, but Perkins is awful at it (gotta stop bringing the ball down with you perk).

I think what Leon needs to work on is a short jumper from 10 ft and in, instead of trying to take it inside against taller players. This will make his inside game that much more effective. Right now, defenders know Powe is not going to take that shot and will lay off him which seems to be causing him some problems. Even with Powe's current slump, his numbers are still pretty good.

[Mr October]

Do any of you think Powe's 20 point game in the finals came out of nowhere? Of course not... he was playing at an extremely high level the entire year and if you couldn't see that you're probably blind.

Powe has been mediocre this year, but last year he was playing at a borderline all-star level on a per-minute basis. So it's easy to see the potential.

Big Baby, on the other hand, has always been below average and I don't understand what other people could possibly see in him.

Powe caught LA off guard. I loved his performance in game 2. But do you think he will ever be able to uncork 20 points again against LA, now that they know who he is?

Hearing Powe mentioned in the same paragraph with all-star level is a bit over the top. 

Baby can at least lean on Duncan, Bynum, big Z, Varajao, etc. Powe struggles a ton against physical 6-10+ dudes. Baby can pass and handle the ball better. Baby moves his feet better on perimeter D against the bigs with range.

I still think it is a close call between the 2. Powe is a better rebounder, scorer (they're equally bad scoring against the above mentioned names), and is ripped.

Caught them off guard?! You have got to be kidding me! He had 20 games in last years reg season that he scored in double digits. 4 more in the playoffs prior to his big game against LA. You may not have been paying attention to how well Powe played last year, but I guarantee you that Phil wasn't caught off guard that Powe could come out and play at a high level.

If all BBD is good for is to LEAN on these big guys, then let's just go out and sign some big fat guy that is 350 pounds. I guess we could just wait a few more years and BBD will be there...

BBD is a very nice guy, and is much quicker a foot than you would expect a fat man to be, but his "intangibles" that everyone seems to love are one of the biggest myths thrown out there we have ever had.

Give me Powe's ability to score in the post, excellent rebounding, ability to draw charges, and ability to draw fouls on guys in his post moves, and you can have the intangibles...

Let me know the next time Powe drops 20 on a contender. Phil Jackson didn't even know how to pronounce Powe's last name.  Have you not seen Baby play effective defense against Duncan, Sheed, etc.?

If Powe is as good as you are describing, it seams like he should have no problem dropping 10pts 8reb in 20-24 mins regularly against the Cavs this Spring.

[expobear]

Do any of you think Powe's 20 point game in the finals came out of nowhere? Of course not... he was playing at an extremely high level the entire year and if you couldn't see that you're probably blind.

Powe has been mediocre this year, but last year he was playing at a borderline all-star level on a per-minute basis. So it's easy to see the potential.

Big Baby, on the other hand, has always been below average and I don't understand what other people could possibly see in him.

Powe caught LA off guard. I loved his performance in game 2. But do you think he will ever be able to uncork 20 points again against LA, now that they know who he is?

Hearing Powe mentioned in the same paragraph with all-star level is a bit over the top. 

Baby can at least lean on Duncan, Bynum, big Z, Varajao, etc. Powe struggles a ton against physical 6-10+ dudes. Baby can pass and handle the ball better. Baby moves his feet better on perimeter D against the bigs with range.

I still think it is a close call between the 2. Powe is a better rebounder, scorer (they're equally bad scoring against the above mentioned names), and is ripped.

Caught them off guard?! You have got to be kidding me! He had 20 games in last years reg season that he scored in double digits. 4 more in the playoffs prior to his big game against LA. You may not have been paying attention to how well Powe played last year, but I guarantee you that Phil wasn't caught off guard that Powe could come out and play at a high level.

If all BBD is good for is to LEAN on these big guys, then let's just go out and sign some big fat guy that is 350 pounds. I guess we could just wait a few more years and BBD will be there...

BBD is a very nice guy, and is much quicker a foot than you would expect a fat man to be, but his "intangibles" that everyone seems to love are one of the biggest myths thrown out there we have ever had.

Give me Powe's ability to score in the post, excellent rebounding, ability to draw charges, and ability to draw fouls on guys in his post moves, and you can have the intangibles...

Let me know the next time Powe drops 20 on a contender. Phil Jackson didn't even know how to pronounce Powe's last name.  Have you not seen Baby play effective defense against Duncan, Sheed, etc.?

If Powe is as good as you are describing, it seams like he should have no problem dropping 10pts 8reb in 20-24 mins regularly against the Cavs this Spring.

I think Powe is capable of doing 10/8 in 24 minutes of playing time, but he's never going to get that with the Celtics. 

[Mr October]

I think Powe is capable of doing 10/8 in 24 minutes of playing time, but he's never going to get that with the Celtics. 

Right, because he is an undersized power forward with holes in his game. As is Baby.

I think Powe is the better 4. But Baby is the better 5, and catching up at the 4.

[expobear]

I think Powe is capable of doing 10/8 in 24 minutes of playing time, but he's never going to get that with the Celtics. 

Right, because he is an undersized power forward with holes in his game. As is Baby.

I think Powe is the better 4. But Baby is the better 5, and catching up at the 4.

He has holes in his game but I think Powe's major problem is that he's not going to get many minutes with Garnett around. Even then, I don't think Rivers has enough trust in Powe's game to warrant him playing a consistent 20-24 minutes per game. Rivers might be right but I do think with the right team, Powe can exceed 10/8 given more minutes. It just won't be with the Celtics.

[EJPLAYA]

Do any of you think Powe's 20 point game in the finals came out of nowhere? Of course not... he was playing at an extremely high level the entire year and if you couldn't see that you're probably blind.

Powe has been mediocre this year, but last year he was playing at a borderline all-star level on a per-minute basis. So it's easy to see the potential.

Big Baby, on the other hand, has always been below average and I don't understand what other people could possibly see in him.

Powe caught LA off guard. I loved his performance in game 2. But do you think he will ever be able to uncork 20 points again against LA, now that they know who he is?

Hearing Powe mentioned in the same paragraph with all-star level is a bit over the top. 

Baby can at least lean on Duncan, Bynum, big Z, Varajao, etc. Powe struggles a ton against physical 6-10+ dudes. Baby can pass and handle the ball better. Baby moves his feet better on perimeter D against the bigs with range.

I still think it is a close call between the 2. Powe is a better rebounder, scorer (they're equally bad scoring against the above mentioned names), and is ripped.

Caught them off guard?! You have got to be kidding me! He had 20 games in last years reg season that he scored in double digits. 4 more in the playoffs prior to his big game against LA. You may not have been paying attention to how well Powe played last year, but I guarantee you that Phil wasn't caught off guard that Powe could come out and play at a high level.

If all BBD is good for is to LEAN on these big guys, then let's just go out and sign some big fat guy that is 350 pounds. I guess we could just wait a few more years and BBD will be there...

BBD is a very nice guy, and is much quicker a foot than you would expect a fat man to be, but his "intangibles" that everyone seems to love are one of the biggest myths thrown out there we have ever had.

Give me Powe's ability to score in the post, excellent rebounding, ability to draw charges, and ability to draw fouls on guys in his post moves, and you can have the intangibles...

Let me know the next time Powe drops 20 on a contender. Phil Jackson didn't even know how to pronounce Powe's last name.  Have you not seen Baby play effective defense against Duncan, Sheed, etc.?

If Powe is as good as you are describing, it seams like he should have no problem dropping 10pts 8reb in 20-24 mins regularly against the Cavs this Spring.

Since he is dropping 6.5 and 4.4 in 16 minutes a game right now, and a 25% increase in floor time would likely result in approximately the same increase in his points and boards, I'd say that wouldn't be a problem.

You're making quite a big deal about a couple of games where some big guys had a little trouble pushing around a fat guy. I seem to remember Duncan just dropping 23 on us last time, so not so sure why you think he did such an amazing job on him.

[Mr October]

Do any of you think Powe's 20 point game in the finals came out of nowhere? Of course not... he was playing at an extremely high level the entire year and if you couldn't see that you're probably blind.

Powe has been mediocre this year, but last year he was playing at a borderline all-star level on a per-minute basis. So it's easy to see the potential.

Big Baby, on the other hand, has always been below average and I don't understand what other people could possibly see in him.

Powe caught LA off guard. I loved his performance in game 2. But do you think he will ever be able to uncork 20 points again against LA, now that they know who he is?

Hearing Powe mentioned in the same paragraph with all-star level is a bit over the top. 

Baby can at least lean on Duncan, Bynum, big Z, Varajao, etc. Powe struggles a ton against physical 6-10+ dudes. Baby can pass and handle the ball better. Baby moves his feet better on perimeter D against the bigs with range.

I still think it is a close call between the 2. Powe is a better rebounder, scorer (they're equally bad scoring against the above mentioned names), and is ripped.

Caught them off guard?! You have got to be kidding me! He had 20 games in last years reg season that he scored in double digits. 4 more in the playoffs prior to his big game against LA. You may not have been paying attention to how well Powe played last year, but I guarantee you that Phil wasn't caught off guard that Powe could come out and play at a high level.

If all BBD is good for is to LEAN on these big guys, then let's just go out and sign some big fat guy that is 350 pounds. I guess we could just wait a few more years and BBD will be there...

BBD is a very nice guy, and is much quicker a foot than you would expect a fat man to be, but his "intangibles" that everyone seems to love are one of the biggest myths thrown out there we have ever had.

Give me Powe's ability to score in the post, excellent rebounding, ability to draw charges, and ability to draw fouls on guys in his post moves, and you can have the intangibles...

Let me know the next time Powe drops 20 on a contender. Phil Jackson didn't even know how to pronounce Powe's last name.  Have you not seen Baby play effective defense against Duncan, Sheed, etc.?

If Powe is as good as you are describing, it seams like he should have no problem dropping 10pts 8reb in 20-24 mins regularly against the Cavs this Spring.

Since he is dropping 6.5 and 4.4 in 16 minutes a game right now, and a 25% increase in floor time would likely result in approximately the same increase in his points and boards, I'd say that wouldn't be a problem.

You're making quite a big deal about a couple of games where some big guys had a little trouble pushing around a fat guy. I seem to remember Duncan just dropping 23 on us last time, so not so sure why you think he did such an amazing job on him.

Lets not go to extremes. Did I say Baby did an amazing job on Duncan? No. I said he does a better job than Powe against bigs like Duncan. Neither are amazing by any stretch of the imagination. Heck no facet of either of their games is amazing.

I completely respect anyone's desire to keep Powe over Davis. I'm on the fence myself. But I was taken aback when Powe is described as "last year he was playing at a borderline all-star level on a per-minute basis." and yet Baby is described as "below average".

I think both players are just below average as backup forwards go, mostly due to their lack of height and consistency. But they have their effectiveness in their hustle, strength and team play within the system.

And again, if Powe drops 20 against Cleveland, LA, or San Antonio in the playoffs beyond 1 time, i will fully be in the Powe camp. I just don't think those teams are going to let that happen.

[Mr October]

I think what Leon needs to work on is a short jumper from 10 ft and in, instead of trying to take it inside against taller players. This will make his inside game that much more effective. Right now, defenders know Powe is not going to take that shot and will lay off him which seems to be causing him some problems. Even with Powe's current slump, his numbers are still pretty good.
[/quote]

I agree. Opponents know the Celtics inside and out now. When Davis and Powe are in the game, the opposing defense salivates at being able to do damage in the paint... and they lay off these guys on defense, clogging the inside.

Hopefully Mikki Moore will be a boost by replacing one of our undersized bangers.

[QuinielaBox]

As a thought, can we keep one and sign and trade the other? We need a backup small forward real bad.

I'd like to keep Powe and BBD if at all possible and I think they can be kept for Perkins money. Only question is, how deep can Wyc afford to spend in the luxery tax. I'd sign each 2 years 4 million.

[cordobes]

The fanaticism of some people over these guys is bizarre. I hope they both go and take their fans with them. If I had to decide as of now, I'd keep Powe. But Baby can have a better future, hard to predict.

I also don't see the problem with Davis weight. It's in the best interest of Boston to keep him big and large. He can rebuild his body, but he'd become a tweener, a better version of Jarred Dudley or something. Perhaps way  better, it depends on how he could develop his game; anyway, not as useful to us as he's now with his current body.

[EJPLAYA]

Do any of you think Powe's 20 point game in the finals came out of nowhere? Of course not... he was playing at an extremely high level the entire year and if you couldn't see that you're probably blind.

Powe has been mediocre this year, but last year he was playing at a borderline all-star level on a per-minute basis. So it's easy to see the potential.

Big Baby, on the other hand, has always been below average and I don't understand what other people could possibly see in him.

Powe caught LA off guard. I loved his performance in game 2. But do you think he will ever be able to uncork 20 points again against LA, now that they know who he is?

Hearing Powe mentioned in the same paragraph with all-star level is a bit over the top. 

Baby can at least lean on Duncan, Bynum, big Z, Varajao, etc. Powe struggles a ton against physical 6-10+ dudes. Baby can pass and handle the ball better. Baby moves his feet better on perimeter D against the bigs with range.

I still think it is a close call between the 2. Powe is a better rebounder, scorer (they're equally bad scoring against the above mentioned names), and is ripped.

Caught them off guard?! You have got to be kidding me! He had 20 games in last years reg season that he scored in double digits. 4 more in the playoffs prior to his big game against LA. You may not have been paying attention to how well Powe played last year, but I guarantee you that Phil wasn't caught off guard that Powe could come out and play at a high level.

If all BBD is good for is to LEAN on these big guys, then let's just go out and sign some big fat guy that is 350 pounds. I guess we could just wait a few more years and BBD will be there...

BBD is a very nice guy, and is much quicker a foot than you would expect a fat man to be, but his "intangibles" that everyone seems to love are one of the biggest myths thrown out there we have ever had.

Give me Powe's ability to score in the post, excellent rebounding, ability to draw charges, and ability to draw fouls on guys in his post moves, and you can have the intangibles...

Let me know the next time Powe drops 20 on a contender. Phil Jackson didn't even know how to pronounce Powe's last name.  Have you not seen Baby play effective defense against Duncan, Sheed, etc.?

If Powe is as good as you are describing, it seams like he should have no problem dropping 10pts 8reb in 20-24 mins regularly against the Cavs this Spring.

Since he is dropping 6.5 and 4.4 in 16 minutes a game right now, and a 25% increase in floor time would likely result in approximately the same increase in his points and boards, I'd say that wouldn't be a problem.

You're making quite a big deal about a couple of games where some big guys had a little trouble pushing around a fat guy. I seem to remember Duncan just dropping 23 on us last time, so not so sure why you think he did such an amazing job on him.

Lets not go to extremes. Did I say Baby did an amazing job on Duncan? No. I said he does a better job than Powe against bigs like Duncan. Neither are amazing by any stretch of the imagination. Heck no facet of either of their games is amazing.

I completely respect anyone's desire to keep Powe over Davis. I'm on the fence myself. But I was taken aback when Powe is described as "last year he was playing at a borderline all-star level on a per-minute basis." and yet Baby is described as "below average".

I think both players are just below average as backup forwards go, mostly due to their lack of height and consistency. But they have their effectiveness in their hustle, strength and team play within the system.

And again, if Powe drops 20 against Cleveland, LA, or San Antonio in the playoffs beyond 1 time, i will fully be in the Powe camp. I just don't think those teams are going to let that happen.

Fair enough, but I would argue that Powe does rebound on an extremely high level based on his per minute averages. He is 23rd in the Entire League in rebounds per 48. Other than that I would agree his level of play is about backup level. He does a borderline starter job on the blocks most of the time. The rest is definitely at best average in NBA standards.

BBD on the other hand does nothing at an "excellent level" and is basically an average player at most things and downright awful on the low block and pretty poor rebounding. (His per 48 is 63rd in the league) That's two pretty crucial categories for a center/PF.  I just don't see how anyone could rate him ahead of Powe if he does nothing extremely well.

[Fan from VT]

Bump. I think a bump is only fair since if BBD put up this type of game it would take days for the posts to stop.