Davis vs. Powe: February poll

[expobear]

After last night it was another hint for Danny to keep Powe this summer. Since KG went down who has been the most consistent big, Leon. I heavily doubt BBD would have tallied 23/13 last night against a decent playoff team. Powe played the entire game and was able to live with the 5th foul for quite a while, BBD or Perkins would have fouled out. If a game is on the line Powe shows up he showed that in the Lakers, Cleveland, Orlando, and the Heat games. Unfortunately we lost two 3/4 of those, but he wasn't the root of the problem in those losses.

How soon we forget!!

In the 7 games prior to getting hurt while starting in place of KG Big Baby Davis had the following averages:

27.5 MPG
12 PPG
2 APG
4 RPG
.7 SPG
34-60 FGM-FGA
57% FG%

He also had an 18 point, 6 rebound, 3 assist, 1 TO 7-13 game against Detroit and a 10 point game against Cleveland in just 17 minutes. I don't think that's all that bad for a second year, second rounder filling in the shoes of a top 15 player All-Time who goes down with an injury.

Powe had a great game last night but let's not diminish what BBD brought to the table for this team. They are, after all, both Celtics.

Nick,

I don't think anybody "diminishes" what Davis brings to the table. He has played well when given the opportunity. I just think many on the board diminish what Powe brings to the table by highlighting his perceived weaknesses. If there is only going to be one of the two next year and they're looking at about the same money, I think the Celtics are going to go with Davis.  This is, unless of course, Powe averages 20/10 in the next few starts.  Then, it'll be a toss up as to who the Celtics will keep.   

[LB3533]

Powe played great last night, but his high production was a function of playing against the Heat and the loss of our front court, as well as Pierce taking a backseat.

[Chris]

Leon's older than Baby and been in the league a year longer.

Baby is two years younger than Leon...but Leon spent more than two years not playing competitive basketball while recovering from his ACL surgeries (I know he spent 16 months rehabbing in college, plus there was an earlier ACL injury in high school).  So I'm not sure the implied argument that Leon has had more time to develop his game is true.

Which isn't to say that Baby's overall ceiling may not be higher -- it's just to say that it may be just as likely that Leon develops a consistent 14-foot jumper as it is that Baby develops better as a rebounder.

Very good point. I don't think however there is a lot of potential in BBD's rebounding though. Being undersized and not being able to jump kind of kills that upside. He can get a little better based on experience, but it isn't going to improve much. Some people just have a knack for knowing where the ball is going like Powe does. It is easier to learn to shoot a wide open 14 footer than to develop a rebounding instinct.

Well, there is also the issues of passing and BBIQ. 

The fact is, these are two very different players, who bring very different skillsets to the table.  One is an explosive scorer and rebounder, while the other is a more heady "system guy" and position defender.  They both have spots in this league, and it all will come down to money, and who best compliments what the team needs.

I find it funny how people rave on and on about BBD's alleged "basketball IQ" as being so much higher than Powe's. Why?! How do we dismiss the IQ needed to be in proper position to rebound at the rate that Powe does? How do we dismiss the IQ needed to create in the post and score on bigger players like Powe does? How do we dismiss the IQ needed to pick up the charges he does so often? Yes I will give you that BBD is a little better passer, however I don't know that I would call him a great passer. He has a better jumper at this point. He hustles. I am fine with having both of them on there and think they bring different things, however acting like Powe is some stupid guy out there who is nothing but a physical talent is absurd.

That wasn't even what we were discussing by the way. It was jumper vs. rebounding.

Nice post and TP for you, Playa!

Anybody that can go for 23/13 without a jumper and a height disadvantage inside must be doing something right and I would attribute this to Powe's basketball smarts and intense desire.

You know, you really have such a strange stance on this.  It's very interesting. 

On one hand, you keep claiming the Powe needs more minutes, but then you keep putting him down, and picking apart his game.

I just don't know how to respond to that.

[expobear]

Leon's older than Baby and been in the league a year longer.

Baby is two years younger than Leon...but Leon spent more than two years not playing competitive basketball while recovering from his ACL surgeries (I know he spent 16 months rehabbing in college, plus there was an earlier ACL injury in high school).  So I'm not sure the implied argument that Leon has had more time to develop his game is true.

Which isn't to say that Baby's overall ceiling may not be higher -- it's just to say that it may be just as likely that Leon develops a consistent 14-foot jumper as it is that Baby develops better as a rebounder.

Very good point. I don't think however there is a lot of potential in BBD's rebounding though. Being undersized and not being able to jump kind of kills that upside. He can get a little better based on experience, but it isn't going to improve much. Some people just have a knack for knowing where the ball is going like Powe does. It is easier to learn to shoot a wide open 14 footer than to develop a rebounding instinct.

Well, there is also the issues of passing and BBIQ. 

The fact is, these are two very different players, who bring very different skillsets to the table.  One is an explosive scorer and rebounder, while the other is a more heady "system guy" and position defender.  They both have spots in this league, and it all will come down to money, and who best compliments what the team needs.

I find it funny how people rave on and on about BBD's alleged "basketball IQ" as being so much higher than Powe's. Why?! How do we dismiss the IQ needed to be in proper position to rebound at the rate that Powe does? How do we dismiss the IQ needed to create in the post and score on bigger players like Powe does? How do we dismiss the IQ needed to pick up the charges he does so often? Yes I will give you that BBD is a little better passer, however I don't know that I would call him a great passer. He has a better jumper at this point. He hustles. I am fine with having both of them on there and think they bring different things, however acting like Powe is some stupid guy out there who is nothing but a physical talent is absurd.

That wasn't even what we were discussing by the way. It was jumper vs. rebounding.

Nice post and TP for you, Playa!

Anybody that can go for 23/13 without a jumper and a height disadvantage inside must be doing something right and I would attribute this to Powe's basketball smarts and intense desire.

You know, you really have such a strange stance on this.  It's very interesting. 

On one hand, you keep claiming the Powe needs more minutes, but then you keep putting him down, and picking apart his game.

I just don't know how to respond to that.

I guess you've rubbed off on me, Chris. I'm starting to subconsciously believe some of the things you believe about Powe. 

The man can play, Chris.....that's all you need to know.  I understand that Powe is not without weaknesses as an NBA player but if Rivers has some faith in him, he will not disappoint.

[EJPLAYA]

After last night it was another hint for Danny to keep Powe this summer. Since KG went down who has been the most consistent big, Leon. I heavily doubt BBD would have tallied 23/13 last night against a decent playoff team. Powe played the entire game and was able to live with the 5th foul for quite a while, BBD or Perkins would have fouled out. If a game is on the line Powe shows up he showed that in the Lakers, Cleveland, Orlando, and the Heat games. Unfortunately we lost two 3/4 of those, but he wasn't the root of the problem in those losses.

How soon we forget!!

In the 7 games prior to getting hurt while starting in place of KG Big Baby Davis had the following averages:

27.5 MPG
12 PPG
2 APG
4 RPG
.7 SPG
34-60 FGM-FGA
57% FG%

He also had an 18 point, 6 rebound, 3 assist, 1 TO 7-13 game against Detroit and a 10 point game against Cleveland in just 17 minutes. I don't think that's all that bad for a second year, second rounder filling in the shoes of a top 15 player All-Time who goes down with an injury.

Powe had a great game last night but let's not diminish what BBD brought to the table for this team. They are, after all, both Celtics.

Nobody's diminishing BBD. Just pumping up Powe. Powe had about a week or two stretch in his time here that he struggled on the offensive end. He still put up the boards. Yes he is playing better right now than the first of the year, but he is putting up "starter" stats out there when given the opportunity. BBD was playing fine before getting hurt, however he doesn't give you rebounding which is a pretty important thing from your big. His recent stretch of really solid games has helped, but he has been inconsistent for almost two years now. I hope he keeps it up when he gets back and that this ankle won't prevent him from doing things he does well, however if we have to end up keeping only one of the two I don't see how it can even be a debate. Powe in a landslide IMO.

(I wouldn't mind keeping both though as long as it doesn't prevent us from making a run at a solid SF)

[Scalablob990]

After last night it was another hint for Danny to keep Powe this summer. Since KG went down who has been the most consistent big, Leon. I heavily doubt BBD would have tallied 23/13 last night against a decent playoff team. Powe played the entire game and was able to live with the 5th foul for quite a while, BBD or Perkins would have fouled out. If a game is on the line Powe shows up he showed that in the Lakers, Cleveland, Orlando, and the Heat games. Unfortunately we lost two 3/4 of those, but he wasn't the root of the problem in those losses.

How soon we forget!!

In the 7 games prior to getting hurt while starting in place of KG Big Baby Davis had the following averages:

27.5 MPG
12 PPG
2 APG
4 RPG
.7 SPG
34-60 FGM-FGA
57% FG%

He also had an 18 point, 6 rebound, 3 assist, 1 TO 7-13 game against Detroit and a 10 point game against Cleveland in just 17 minutes. I don't think that's all that bad for a second year, second rounder filling in the shoes of a top 15 player All-Time who goes down with an injury.

Powe had a great game last night but let's not diminish what BBD brought to the table for this team. They are, after all, both Celtics.

Nick,

I don't think anybody "diminishes" what Davis brings to the table. He has played well when given the opportunity. I just think many on the board diminish what Powe brings to the table by highlighting his perceived weaknesses. If there is only going to be one of the two next year and they're looking at about the same money, I think the Celtics are going to go with Davis.  This is, unless of course, Powe averages 20/10 in the next few starts.  Then, it'll be a toss up as to who the Celtics will keep.   

Great points made by both of you, TP's. Nah Nick I didn't forget about BBD's last few games. Him and Powe have taken two big steps forward for the team since Garnett went down. I'm not a "uses stats in the argument guy" (I go off what I see every game) so i'm not about to go dig up some weird FG% or half court % shot (if that's possible??) and throw it at ya. I don't need numbers to know that BOTH Big Baby AND Powe have taken two large steps in their games since KG went down. Both have been dropping bombs left and right, but sadly we're still losing.  I give more kudos to Powe since he had to play through the tough January slump, and broke out in the Laker game a few weeks ago.I know Powes main weakness is his late rotations and perimeter D and I doubt that will ever seriously improve, but certain players on this team have more annoying drawbacks then that.....KG not liking to drive to the basket is one of them, or Perk picking up 2 moving screens a game. I favorite Powe for the main reason he doesn't ever give up and he plays with heart and physicality in whatever minutes he gets. Powe himself said a few games back "I looked down the bench and saw there was no KG, and I knew I had to step up". The main thing I love about Powes game is his inside game (which imo Baby lacks) out of everyone on the team he can finish at the rim the hardest. He can also rebound at a very good rate, he's great at putbacks. Throw the pie at me if you want but I think a line up of Rondo-RA-PP-Powe-Garnett would demolish nearly all teams. Powe becoming a scoring machine the last few games isn't a fluke, and neither was game 2 of the finals, whoever calls that game a fluke should take a step back and rethink what they said (not pointing at you Nick, or you Expo).

[droopdog7]

I have always sided with Powe in this argument (of course, I am a Cal alum too).  Until recently, it wasn't even close.  But I have to admit I admire BBD for working on, and taking, those jump shots.  If he can keep hitting them, then he brings true value to the team.  I also understand how his girth help him on the defensive end. 

That said, BBD is much more of a complimentary player; a specialist.  He scores mainly because other teams want him to take that shot.  Good for him for hitting those shots.  Powe on the other hand is a more complete player offensively.  He get's his own shot.  He is a beast on the boards and most of all, he does not back down.  I just love that about Powe.  If a fight ever broke out, I am glad we have THAT guy on our side. 

[Chris]

The man can play, Chris.....that's all you need to know.  I understand that Powe is not without weaknesses as an NBA player but if Rivers has some faith in him, he will not disappoint.

The thing is Doc does has tremendous faith in him.  He just feels that he is most valuable to the team as a 20 minute per game player, providing energy, rebounding, and scoring off the bench. 

This is the problem I had with Hollinger's column a couple days ago.  He seemed to only look at "who is better", rather than "in what role can these players help the team the most".

[EJPLAYA]

That's a fair discussion, however the discussion of "who is better" is important as well for a couple reasons. One is that when Scal comes back, there is going to be less time for one or both of them. Maybe we argue that Scal won't see minutes when he returns, but he was playing very well before the injuries also. The second thing is that it is very unlikely that we will end up being able to keep both of them this offseason and we should be discussing which one we feel should be kept. It's nice that it is a discussion though. At least we have some options...

[Chris]

That's a fair discussion, however the discussion of "who is better" is important as well for a couple reasons. One is that when Scal comes back, there is going to be less time for one or both of them. Maybe we argue that Scal won't see minutes when he returns, but he was playing very well before the injuries also. The second thing is that it is very unlikely that we will end up being able to keep both of them this offseason and we should be discussing which one we feel should be kept. It's nice that it is a discussion though. At least we have some options...

I think Scal sees more minutes on the wing (IF he returns), and only really plays PF against certain matchups (like Orlando).

[EJPLAYA]

That's a fair discussion, however the discussion of "who is better" is important as well for a couple reasons. One is that when Scal comes back, there is going to be less time for one or both of them. Maybe we argue that Scal won't see minutes when he returns, but he was playing very well before the injuries also. The second thing is that it is very unlikely that we will end up being able to keep both of them this offseason and we should be discussing which one we feel should be kept. It's nice that it is a discussion though. At least we have some options...

I think Scal sees more minutes on the wing (IF he returns), and only really plays PF against certain matchups (like Orlando).

I would agree with that, however that is part of our problem in the offseason that we will face. No one on here thinks that Scal should be playing SF much. He just isn't equipped to do it that well. He plays solid defense against the PF spot, and stretches the floor with his shooting, so PF really is his best spot. If we kept Powe who can play the 4 and 5 spots, and let Scal be Powe's backup at the 4 spot and Mikki his backup at the 5 then we could go after a true backup SF. THAT IMO is the hole in our depth. Scal, BBD, and Powe are nice when we have injury issues, (Scary that two of the three + KG are injured right now)but not a luxury we can afford most of the time. We need a true SF backup pickup in the offseason. Hopefully we can do a sign and trade with BBD and TA and get one this coming offseason. That would make a big difference to our team. 

[Casperian]

I find it funny how people rave on and on about BBD's alleged "basketball IQ" as being so much higher than Powe's. Why?! How do we dismiss the IQ needed to be in proper position to rebound at the rate that Powe does? How do we dismiss the IQ needed to create in the post and score on bigger players like Powe does? How do we dismiss the IQ needed to pick up the charges he does so often? Yes I will give you that BBD is a little better passer, however I don't know that I would call him a great passer. He has a better jumper at this point. He hustles. I am fine with having both of them on there and think they bring different things, however acting like Powe is some stupid guy out there who is nothing but a physical talent is absurd.

That wasn't even what we were discussing by the way. It was jumper vs. rebounding.

Why "versus"?
Baby`s not a weak rebounder, either. IIRC, that´s pretty much the only reason why he played last season.
He had several 5+ OR games in limited minutes. He just has a different role this year, and plays farther away from the basket (a role he never played in the last 5 years) alongside great rebounders who do play under the basket.
I think less rebounds were to be expected.

[Fafnir]

I find it funny how people rave on and on about BBD's alleged "basketball IQ" as being so much higher than Powe's. Why?! How do we dismiss the IQ needed to be in proper position to rebound at the rate that Powe does? How do we dismiss the IQ needed to create in the post and score on bigger players like Powe does? How do we dismiss the IQ needed to pick up the charges he does so often? Yes I will give you that BBD is a little better passer, however I don't know that I would call him a great passer. He has a better jumper at this point. He hustles. I am fine with having both of them on there and think they bring different things, however acting like Powe is some stupid guy out there who is nothing but a physical talent is absurd.

That wasn't even what we were discussing by the way. It was jumper vs. rebounding.

Why "versus"?
Baby`s not a weak rebounder, either. IIRC, that´s pretty much the only reason why he played last season.
He had several 5+ OR games in limited minutes. He just has a different role this year, and plays farther away from the basket (a role he never played in the last 5 years) alongside great rebounders who do play under the basket.
I think less rebounds were to be expected.

He's a weak defensive rebounder for a center or power forward. He's a good offensive rebounder at either postion though. Overall this still leaves him as below average. He's just too short without the hops to be a good defensive rebounder. He does a good job boxing out though.

[Chris]

That's a fair discussion, however the discussion of "who is better" is important as well for a couple reasons. One is that when Scal comes back, there is going to be less time for one or both of them. Maybe we argue that Scal won't see minutes when he returns, but he was playing very well before the injuries also. The second thing is that it is very unlikely that we will end up being able to keep both of them this offseason and we should be discussing which one we feel should be kept. It's nice that it is a discussion though. At least we have some options...

I think Scal sees more minutes on the wing (IF he returns), and only really plays PF against certain matchups (like Orlando).

I would agree with that, however that is part of our problem in the offseason that we will face. No one on here thinks that Scal should be playing SF much. He just isn't equipped to do it that well. He plays solid defense against the PF spot, and stretches the floor with his shooting, so PF really is his best spot. If we kept Powe who can play the 4 and 5 spots, and let Scal be Powe's backup at the 4 spot and Mikki his backup at the 5 then we could go after a true backup SF. THAT IMO is the hole in our depth. Scal, BBD, and Powe are nice when we have injury issues, (Scary that two of the three + KG are injured right now)but not a luxury we can afford most of the time. We need a true SF backup pickup in the offseason. Hopefully we can do a sign and trade with BBD and TA and get one this coming offseason. That would make a big difference to our team. 

I disagree completely.  I think if Scal is healthy, he is an excellent option to play 6-8 minutes per game (which is all you need) at SF.

Regardless of his lateral quickness (which I think is much better than some people give him credit for), he is tremendous at keeping players in front of him.  As long as you have him out there with a guy like Rondo or Marbury who can penetrate, and create shots for others, I think Scal is a great fit at SF...especially given the C's defensive scheme which is based on position and help defense.

[nickagneta]

About Powe, one of the reasons I have loved him so much and why he is so successful at rebounding is something that Tommy Heinsohn touched on last night. I don't think Powe is necessarily the smartest player with the highest BBIQ(though he's definitely above average in that department) but his basketball instincts are off he chart, especially when it comes to rebounding.

Tommy mentioned it after Powe moved a good 10-12 feet in a second to grab an offensive rebound away from three Heat defenders surrounding him. Tommy said Bill Russell was the same way.

Baby, for all his rounding shortcomings is technically speaking, a good rebounder. He blocks out well and gets good position. He does everything very intelligently and does everything right but because of his size, lack of jumping ability and short arms is an overall bad rebounder. I give Baby credit for moving people off the block and allowing his teammates room to get the rebound(he does this a lot) but overall his numbers just aren't good.

Powe on the other hand has off the chart instincts. He just "sees" the ball well, can read where it's going, and can process all that and react to the spot incredibly fast. He's not big, but being powerful and quick with good leaping ability, long arms, and his incredible inate ability, he is a terrific rebounder. You can't teach what Powe has and does in rebounding. You either have it or you don't.

He does.