sign howard

[alldaboston]

The "exact type" of player the Celtics need isn't a whiny quitter with no leadership qualities who has now burned bridges with three franchises. Spending 35% of your cap on a breaking down prima donna non-star is a good way to kill a rebuild.

I'd rather have Mahimi, Ezeli, Pachulia, Horford, or even Big Al.  All should be much cheaper (even Horford won't approach $31 million), and none have the baggage.

I don't really how you hate Howard's personality but don't mind Cousins' personality at all.  They are similar to me.  And Cousins will be on his 3rd team someday too.  Too me they are both clowns.

Cousins is passionate about winning and is fiercely loyal, he improves his game every year, and he's a much better player who makes roughly 40% of the salary that Howard is demanding.

1.  Cousins is a headcase far beyond ANYTHING of which Howard has been accused.

2.  Howard can demand whatever he wants.  That doesn't mean he's going to get it.

3.  Cousins has also never won more than 33 games in any season in his career.  Howard won 36 games as a 19 year old rookie and has been the best player on multiple 50 win teams.

Not wanting Howard makes sense.  Wanting Cousins instead is dumb.

Mike

Haha. When deciding what's "dumb", I'll consider the source.

In my world, taking the guy who is several years younger, costs about half as much, and who is a better player pretty much across the board makes sense.  I'll take the best center in the NBA, not the guy who was good multiple franchises ago.

And that is why GMs lose their jobs.

Cousins has accomplished NOTHING in the NBA.  He's been a problem for coach after coach after coach.  He's been on losing team after losing team after losing team.  And he's only under contract for the next two seasons, at which point he'll be demanding even more money than Dwight is now.

But none of that matters to you because you're blinded by potential.

Dumb.

Mike

Okay, I'll put on my mod hat for a moment:  calling others "dumb" is a personal attack.  You've now done it twice now.  If it happens again, it will be treated as a third offense. 

Trading for the best center in the NBA, who is only 25 years old and who has two years left on a bargain contract, doesn't get GMs fired, because it never happens.  Opportunities to acquire talent like that are exceedingly rare. 

Spending 35% of the cap on an over the hill prima donna non-star center is the type of thing that gets people fired, although I think Danny is safe no matter what he does.

Not with me.

There are two things Ainge could do this summer that would have me calling for his job.

Signing the rotting corpse of Dwight Howard would be one of them.

If Danny gets fired, I hope you're hired instead. Your friends who are also sources and scouts would immensely improve this team so much. You call for Danny to get better talent around Brad all the time. And that Brad is gonna leave if we don't get talent. Then go ahead, get us talent.

Personal attacks with a moderator in the thread.

Very nice.

2016: when sarcasm = personal attacks

[Vermont Green]

Our front court was pretty bad this season.  Howard would be an improvement unfortunately.  But that is not the point with Howard.  You can't afford to overpay someone and have too much of your money tied up with someone who doesn't play up to their contract.  That is what I would fear in signing Howard.

He is a serial bad attitude, issue, type of guy.  The cost for me to be happy with signing him is likely way less than what he will get.  Let someone else overpay and be disappointed.

[Beat LA]

The "exact type" of player the Celtics need isn't a whiny quitter with no leadership qualities who has now burned bridges with three franchises. Spending 35% of your cap on a breaking down prima donna non-star is a good way to kill a rebuild.

I'd rather have Mahimi, Ezeli, Pachulia, Horford, or even Big Al.  All should be much cheaper (even Horford won't approach $31 million), and none have the baggage.

I don't really how you hate Howard's personality but don't mind Cousins' personality at all.  They are similar to me.  And Cousins will be on his 3rd team someday too.  Too me they are both clowns.

Cousins is passionate about winning and is fiercely loyal, he improves his game every year, and he's a much better player who makes roughly 40% of the salary that Howard is demanding.

1.  Cousins is a headcase far beyond ANYTHING of which Howard has been accused.

2.  Howard can demand whatever he wants.  That doesn't mean he's going to get it.

3.  Cousins has also never won more than 33 games in any season in his career.  Howard won 36 games as a 19 year old rookie and has been the best player on multiple 50 win teams.

Not wanting Howard makes sense.  Wanting Cousins instead is dumb.

Mike

Haha. When deciding what's "dumb", I'll consider the source.

In my world, taking the guy who is several years younger, costs about half as much, and who is a better player pretty much across the board makes sense.  I'll take the best center in the NBA, not the guy who was good multiple franchises ago.

And that is why GMs lose their jobs.

Cousins has accomplished NOTHING in the NBA.  He's been a problem for coach after coach after coach.  He's been on losing team after losing team after losing team.  And he's only under contract for the next two seasons, at which point he'll be demanding even more money than Dwight is now.

But none of that matters to you because you're blinded by potential.

Dumb.

Mike

Okay, I'll put on my mod hat for a moment:  calling others "dumb" is a personal attack.  You've now done it twice now.  If it happens again, it will be treated as a third offense. 

Trading for the best center in the NBA, who is only 25 years old and who has two years left on a bargain contract, doesn't get GMs fired, because it never happens.  Opportunities to acquire talent like that are exceedingly rare. 

Spending 35% of the cap on an over the hill prima donna non-star center is the type of thing that gets people fired, although I think Danny is safe no matter what he does.

Not with me.

There are two things Ainge could do this summer that would have me calling for his job.

Signing the rotting corpse of Dwight Howard would be one of them.

Inquiring minds want to know what the second one is?? 

Blowing the best Celtics draft pick in 20 years on that stiff Dragan Bender.

And here I thought your answer was going to be drafting Jarrod Uthoff .

[ThaPreacher]

Our front court was pretty bad this season.  Howard would be an improvement unfortunately.  But that is not the point with Howard.  You can't afford to overpay someone and have too much of your money tied up with someone who doesn't play up to their contract.  That is what I would fear in signing Howard.

He is a serial bad attitude, issue, type of guy.  The cost for me to be happy with signing him is likely way less than what he will get.  Let someone else overpay and be disappointed.

I don't think its fair to call him a "serial bad attitude,issue, type of guy".
Howard was a media darling, All Star and dominant big man.  Had he come to Boston instead of going to LA, likely we would have hung banner 18.

If Dwight had opted out and not resigned with Orlando, he would never had that media circus that plagued Orlando that year and a half when they finally had to make the 4 team trade.
The thing is,  Dwight was like that guy in a relationship who just won't break up with the girl.

By all accounts, Dwight is a good teammate.  I think that he got a raw deal in LA. That was a tough time period with Kobe on the slow injury riddled decline.

In Houston,it seems that Harden's lack of commitment to playing defense and sharing the ball
has strained the relationship with Howard. When McHale was coaching, it was Harden that was problematic. Yet, Howard seems to get the blame.

Howard, remains a significant player.

Why not 3 years at 14 mil? Player option after 2?

[IDreamCeltics]

Well considering we'd have to trade good wing players plus lotto picks for Cousins, I'm inclined to lean towards Dwight. 

To me, the combo of IT, AB, Smart, Crowder, & Turner is more important than a subset of those guys plus Cousins.  Without that defense cohesion, we become a very average team (ie- look what happened when we lost AB against ATL). 

For that reason, I'd prefer keep the core together and just add Howard even though he is (obviously) less desirable.

Wait why is Howard less desirable?  He's made every team he played for better and to my knowledge every team he's left has gotten considerably worse after his departure.

[Onslaught]

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/kevin-mchale-on-dwight-howard-after-he-loses-five-minutes-later-hes-over-it-when-i-lost-i-was-miserable/

[greece66]

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/kevin-mchale-on-dwight-howard-after-he-loses-five-minutes-later-hes-over-it-when-i-lost-i-was-miserable/

omg that Curry rebound 

[Androslav]

Howard is expensive, injury prone, 4 years behind his prime, diva and has a critical weakness - FTs.
Even if you forget all these downsides... sorry I can't forget all that.

[Roy H.]

Well considering we'd have to trade good wing players plus lotto picks for Cousins, I'm inclined to lean towards Dwight. 

To me, the combo of IT, AB, Smart, Crowder, & Turner is more important than a subset of those guys plus Cousins.  Without that defense cohesion, we become a very average team (ie- look what happened when we lost AB against ATL). 

For that reason, I'd prefer keep the core together and just add Howard even though he is (obviously) less desirable.

Wait why is Howard less desirable?  He's made every team he played for better and to my knowledge every team he's left has gotten considerably worse after his departure.

Except the Lakers.

And several of his Magic teams, and this year's Houston team in particular, underachieved.

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

Thomas-Butler-Howard would be in the mix for best top 3 in the East outside Cleveland...

I mean, sure.  But, the current top-3 in the East outside Cleveland include Toronto, Miami and Atlanta.  Is joining them an accomplishment? 

But honestly, if that's the only goal worth pursuing, we should give up and just wait five to eight years, because I don't see a viable path to adding a top 5 player to this roster, and that's what it would take to reach that level.

Well, the goal certainly isn't to top out as top-2 in the East, while giving up 35% of our cap to a clown who clearly can't get it done.

Also we finished with an identical win loss record with 2 of those 'top three' last season, so tossing out our core of players to tie up our cap in a guy on the way down just to stand pat...I'll pass

[crimson_stallion]

Well considering we'd have to trade good wing players plus lotto picks for Cousins, I'm inclined to lean towards Dwight. 

To me, the combo of IT, AB, Smart, Crowder, & Turner is more important than a subset of those guys plus Cousins.  Without that defense cohesion, we become a very average team (ie- look what happened when we lost AB against ATL). 

For that reason, I'd prefer keep the core together and just add Howard even though he is (obviously) less desirable.

Wait why is Howard less desirable?  He's made every team he played for better and to my knowledge every team he's left has gotten considerably worse after his departure.

Except the Lakers.

And several of his Magic teams, and this year's Houston team in particular, underachieved.

With all due respect, he led an absolute laughing stock of a Magic team to the finals as their undisputed best player, and he the Magic were pretty much an annual contender during his prime despite no other stars on those teams.

LA was a disaster because it was a terrible fit and he was injured.

He's actually been pretty darn good in Houston, but his stats (and the team's success) has been held back by the fact that the team doesn't use him nearly enough...And insists on instead running all of their offense through the horribly inefficient ball hog that is James Harden.

Dwight's production on a per-minute and per-attempt basis is pretty much as good as its ever been...he's just not getting nearly enough touches.

I'm going to make a big claim right now and say that if we get Dwight, we will instantly become a contender in the East, and give the Cavs a very big scare.

His rebounding, shotblocking and inside scoring (i.e. his general dominance of everything inside the paint area) would create so much space and so many second chance opportunities for out perimeter players.

He also gives us something we haven't had since KG left - a guy who can defend the paint AND follow it up by securing the rebound.

Look at his stats and it looks like an incremental upgrade.  But if you look past the box score, his presence would impact the game in ways so far beyond what the stats suggest.

Call me crazy, bit i think adding Dwight would impact this team more than Butler and almost as much as Durant would.  We really are THAT desperately leaning in rebounding, rim protection and inside scoring...and it's been holding this team back for years.

[Roy H.]

Call me crazy, bit i think adding Dwight would impact this team ... almost as much as Durant would.

I'm not sure quite what to say here.  It's like the last five years didn't happen.

[crimson_stallion]

Call me crazy, bit i think adding Dwight would impact this team ... almost as much as Durant would.

I'm not sure quite what to say here.  It's like the last five years didn't happen.

In the past 5 seasons Dwight has averaged Per 36 numbers of:

* 19.4 points on 12.6 FGA, 13,7 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 2.0 blocks, 1.4 steals, 57% FG
* 17.1 points on 10.8 FGA, 12.5 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 2.5 blocks, 1.1 steals, 58% FG
* 19.5 points on 12.0 FGA, 13.0 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 1.9 blocks, 0.9 steals, 59% FG
* 19.0 points on 12.5 FGA, 12.7 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1.6 blocks, 0.8 steals, 59% FG
* 15.4 Points on 9.5 FGA, 13.2 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1.8 blocks, 1.1 steals, 62% FG

I can think of only two big man in the NBA who have put up Per-36 averages to over the past 5 years which rival those, and they are Demarcus Cousins and Tim Duncan.

If you look at those stats above, you will see that every time Dwights scoring averages have gone down their has been a correlated reduction in his field goal attempts. 

* In 12-13 his scoring dropped by around 2 Points Per 36, and his FGA drobbed by 1.6 FGA Per 36 minutes.  Considering Dwight connected on 57.3% of his FG that year, it is safe to assume that an extra 1.8 FGA Per 36 Minutes would have seen his scoring average jump by about 2.08 Points Per 36, to an average of 19.2 Points Per 36.

* In 2015/16 his scoring dropped by 4.5 Points Per 36, and his FGA dropped by 3 FGA Per 36 minutes.  Considering Dwight connected on 62.0% of his FG that year, it is safe to assume that an extra 3 FGA Per 36 Minutes would have seen his scoring average jump by about 3.72 Points Per 36, to an average of around 19.12 Points Per 36 minutes.

What's my point? 

My point is that Dwight hasn't become any less productive on the offensive end then he was in his prime, he's simply not being featured in his teams' offences as much.  When his scoring dropped to 17 a game he was playing second fiddle to Kobe Bryant on the Lakers.  When his scoring dropped to 15.8 and 13.7 the past two years he was playing second fiddle to James Harden. 

What do Kobe and Harden have in common?  Both are low percentage, high volume scorers who have to have the ball in their hands 95% of the time, and who get their points by throwing up a ridiculous number of shot attempts.  Any time Dwight has played on a team where he wasn't playing behind a ball-hogging chucker, he's been an 18 - 20 PPG scorer.

Basically what it comes down to is this.  Give Dwight a decent amount of touches (say, 12 shots a game) and you're looking at just about the most efficient 19 points and 13 rebounds (per 36 minutes) that is humanly possible, along with some outstanding paint protection as a consolation prize. 

Is he better then Durant?  Of course not. 

But I feel that Durant offers us two things (scoring and perimeter shooting) that we need at an elite level.

On the other hand, I feel Dwight offers us several things (rebounding, shotblocking, a second scoring option, a paint presence on offence and toughness) at an exceptionally high level.

People would hold Durant in higher esteem simply because his greatest gift is scoring, and scoring is the "glory stat" that everybody loves to worship. But scoring isn't the only thing that matters, and when Durant isn't scoring he's not doing a whole lot to help your team win.  When Dwight isn't scoring, he can STILL dominate a game. 

Also Durant is a ball hungry player - he NEEDS the ball in his hands 24-7 to be truly effective.  That's exactly why he works so poorly with Russell Westbrook (stats show that each is most effective then the other isn't on the court).  So how well would Durant work with a guy like Thomas, who also needs the ball in his hands to really be effective?

Dwight on the other hand doesn't need the ball in his hands to dominate.  You can call two plays for him the entire game, and he can still finish up with 12 points, 18 rebounds and 4 blocks. 

I have never liked Dwight Howard as a person.  I think he's goofy, immature, bratty, unpredictable and volatile.  But the man has incredible talent, and he can straight up play.

I would argue that upgrading our starting center (which pretty much doesn't exist right now) to Dwight Howard might well bring a bigger net gain to our team then upgrading our starting small forward (who is already pretty good) to Kevin Durant.

Given the choice I'd still take Durant over Dwight obviously (based on star power alone) but if Dwight ended up having more impact for us then Durant in the win column, I wouldn't be all that shocked.

Remember, Durant has spent the majority of his NBA career playing on some of the most utterly stacked teams in the entire league, and he's still only made the finals what - once? 

Dwight made the finals playing on a team full of glorified role players, and he went through Lebron's Cavs to get there.  I don't care what anybody says, that is one hell of a feat.

[Roy H.]

Player A: 13.5 points, 9.9 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 1.3 blocks, .592 TS%, 1.6 turnovers, 114 ORtg, 104 DRtg in 30.1 minutes

Player B: 13.7 points, 11.8 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 1.6 blocks, .604 TS%, 2.3 turnovers, 110 ORtg, 104 DRtg in 32.1 minutes

Player A leads in VORP, BPM, PER and WS, as well as scoring and assists per minute.

Anybody want to give Marcin Gortat $31 million per year? That's the level of player we'd get with Howard, except Gortat doesn't have the baggage and can hit his FTs.

[PhoSita]

I LOVE Marcin Gortat.  If the Celts traded for him, he'd immediately become one of my favorite Celts.  I have always wanted him in green.  My dream back in 2012 was for the Celts to trade Rondo for Nash and Gortat.

That out of the way ...

Is Marcin going to grab 20% of available rebounds next year?  30% defensive boards?

He going to double his free throw attempts?  Set a career mark in block percentage and field goal percentage?



Dwight only attempted 8.5 field goals per game last year.  I know he's not what he used to be, but do you think that's his offensive production moving forward?

On the Celts, I think there's a good chance Dwight would average closer to the 11-12 attempts he used to get, which with his finishing would mean scoring more like 15-16 points per game.



It's true that Dwight is not leaps and bounds ahead of other pure centers in the league anymore (literally or figuratively -- ha!).  He's not worth 20 million a year more than the Gortats of the world.

But the relationship between what you pay a player above the average for his position and his production beyond the average at his position tends to be a steep slope.  You pay a lot for marginal production above the average.  Especially at a position of talent scarcity like center (as opposed to point guard).


Dwight is still in that Deandre Jordan / Andre Drummond / Hassan Whiteside category of pure paint monsters.  He may only be there for another couple years, after which he'll enter that Tyson Chandler role player zone, assuming his back holds up.

It's not a totally safe bet, but I maintain that signing Dwight to a 2-3 year max would be a good gamble for the Celts and Dwight.