2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[GreenFaith1819]

But anyway I don't think KG at the 3 in some lineup changes would be an offensive disaster at all.

The man shoots from deep right now - for Boston - and we love him here.

Here's your problem, though:

Kareem doesn't shoot threes
JO doesn't shoot threes
KG doesn't shoot threes
Joe Dumars only attempted 29 threes the entire season you picked for him
Gary Payton shot 32.8% from three (a pretty poor number)

That means that almost your entire offense is being conducted within the three point circle.  That makes your offense less lethal (i.e., the most you hope for on most possessions is two, rather than three, points), and it makes it much easier to defend.  Your offense is giving itself much less room to operate.  That's why Danny and Doc always talk about "floor stretchers".  KG has good range on his jumper, but not being able to go out beyond the three point line hurts.

But Grant Hill, Clyde Drexler, nor Jason Kidd shoot well from deep either, LOL!

But they aren't critiqued much here are they?

And please use the Playoff Numbers for Gary Payton - he in fact elevated his game for the playoffs for 95-96. He shot 486% and 410% from deep.

[StartOrien]

KG's midrange game is pretty good, but you want him catching the ball with his back to the basket or catching and shooting, and you want to limit his dribbling. That's just in general, let alone in a format when he's facing the NBA's greatest swing defenders.

Huh, why in the world would you want to limit KG's face up game in his prime?

I think you're conflating KG's offensive limitations post injury with how effective his game was back then.

I'd question how effective his face up game would be with elite small forwards defending him, and where he would need to start that face up offense in order to be consistently effective.

[Fafnir]

KG's midrange game is pretty good, but you want him catching the ball with his back to the basket or catching and shooting, and you want to limit his dribbling. That's just in general, let alone in a format when he's facing the NBA's greatest swing defenders.

Huh, why in the world would you want to limit KG's face up game in his prime?

I think you're conflating KG's offensive limitations post injury with how effective his game was back then.

I'd question how effective his face up game would be with elite small forwards defending him, and where he would need to start that face up offense in order to be consistently effective.

I think a player like KG would do just fine in the high post against SFs.

The spacing concerns that others have cited would be my only concern with the line up, not KG's face up game.

[StartOrien]

But anyway I don't think KG at the 3 in some lineup changes would be an offensive disaster at all.

The man shoots from deep right now - for Boston - and we love him here.

Here's your problem, though:

Kareem doesn't shoot threes
JO doesn't shoot threes
KG doesn't shoot threes
Joe Dumars only attempted 29 threes the entire season you picked for him
Gary Payton shot 32.8% from three (a pretty poor number)

That means that almost your entire offense is being conducted within the three point circle.  That makes your offense less lethal (i.e., the most you hope for on most possessions is two, rather than three, points), and it makes it much easier to defend.  Your offense is giving itself much less room to operate.  That's why Danny and Doc always talk about "floor stretchers".  KG has good range on his jumper, but not being able to go out beyond the three point line hurts.

But Grant Hill, Clyde Drexler, nor Jason Kidd shoot well from deep either, LOL!

But they aren't critiqued much here are they?

And please use the Playoff Numbers for Gary Payton - he in fact elevated his game for the playoffs for 95-96. He shot 486% and 410% from deep.

Because those teams aren't suggesting a lineup that would play a career PF at the SF spot that many believe would take away from the team's #1 offensive option.

You're playing a 'whoa is me' game as opposed to conceding a point.

[StartOrien]

KG's midrange game is pretty good, but you want him catching the ball with his back to the basket or catching and shooting, and you want to limit his dribbling. That's just in general, let alone in a format when he's facing the NBA's greatest swing defenders.

Huh, why in the world would you want to limit KG's face up game in his prime?

I think you're conflating KG's offensive limitations post injury with how effective his game was back then.

I'd question how effective his face up game would be with elite small forwards defending him, and where he would need to start that face up offense in order to be consistently effective.

I think a player like KG would do just fine in the high post against SFs.

The spacing concerns that others have cited would be my only concern with the line up, not KG's face up game.

I think we're pretty much on the same page here. I worded the above underlined sentence poorly.

[Roy H.]

But anyway I don't think KG at the 3 in some lineup changes would be an offensive disaster at all.

The man shoots from deep right now - for Boston - and we love him here.

Here's your problem, though:

Kareem doesn't shoot threes
JO doesn't shoot threes
KG doesn't shoot threes
Joe Dumars only attempted 29 threes the entire season you picked for him
Gary Payton shot 32.8% from three (a pretty poor number)

That means that almost your entire offense is being conducted within the three point circle.  That makes your offense less lethal (i.e., the most you hope for on most possessions is two, rather than three, points), and it makes it much easier to defend.  Your offense is giving itself much less room to operate.  That's why Danny and Doc always talk about "floor stretchers".  KG has good range on his jumper, but not being able to go out beyond the three point line hurts.

But Grant Hill, Clyde Drexler, nor Jason Kidd shoot well from deep either, LOL!

But they aren't critiqued much here are they?

And please use the Playoff Numbers for Gary Payton - he in fact elevated his game for the playoffs for 95-96. He shot 486% and 410% from deep.

Is there another team that is proposing an offense with only one prolific three point shooter, who shot below 33%?

Teams can get away with weak shooters at certain positions, but they can't get away with weak outside shooters at *every* position.  A five man lineup where the best outside shooter hits 32.8% of his shots is a recipe for disaster. 

It will be up to panelists whether they want to weigh Payton's playoff shooting numbers over his regular season numbers.  I probably wouldn't be inclined to do so, but luckily for everyone, I'm not a panelist.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time at all, but I think a team that doesn't have a little more shooting is going to struggle a bit.

[StartOrien]

It will be up to panelists whether they want to weigh Payton's playoff shooting numbers over his regular season numbers.  I probably wouldn't be inclined to do so, but luckily for everyone, I'm not a panelist.

Not me, I'd be spending this whole post-draft time hyping up Zach Randolph 

[Roy H.]

It will be up to panelists whether they want to weigh Payton's playoff shooting numbers over his regular season numbers.  I probably wouldn't be inclined to do so, but luckily for everyone, I'm not a panelist.

Not me, I'd be spending this whole post-draft time hyping up Zach Randolph 

Haha.  Randolph has really changed my opinion of him the past two years.  The Fake Kings still refuse to concede that they lost.

[GreenFaith1819]

But anyway I don't think KG at the 3 in some lineup changes would be an offensive disaster at all.

The man shoots from deep right now - for Boston - and we love him here.

Here's your problem, though:

Kareem doesn't shoot threes
JO doesn't shoot threes
KG doesn't shoot threes
Joe Dumars only attempted 29 threes the entire season you picked for him
Gary Payton shot 32.8% from three (a pretty poor number)

That means that almost your entire offense is being conducted within the three point circle.  That makes your offense less lethal (i.e., the most you hope for on most possessions is two, rather than three, points), and it makes it much easier to defend.  Your offense is giving itself much less room to operate.  That's why Danny and Doc always talk about "floor stretchers".  KG has good range on his jumper, but not being able to go out beyond the three point line hurts.

But Grant Hill, Clyde Drexler, nor Jason Kidd shoot well from deep either, LOL!

But they aren't critiqued much here are they?

And please use the Playoff Numbers for Gary Payton - he in fact elevated his game for the playoffs for 95-96. He shot 486% and 410% from deep.

Because those teams aren't suggesting a lineup that would play a career PF at the SF spot that many believe would take away from the team's #1 offensive option.

You're playing a 'whoa is me' game as opposed to conceding a point.

Not sure where you are going with that last sentence so I'll ignore it.

The fact is that those players I listed are not critiqued much on here. Not sure if it is because I have the Lakers (on CelticsBlog) or what.

To answer your question about KG is that he would play as needed in spots to facilitate matchup problems. He had that talent.

To say it wouldn't work is not logical.

Heck, lol...every roster here is not logical if you think about it.

[indeedproceed]

First things first.

I think there is a bad climate here of trying to paint my team as a team that can't shoot.

As I checked just ONE roster today, folks here seem to love Clyde Drexler, and while he was a great player he didn't shot well - at all - from deep.

But yet there is some climate here that is focusing on only my roster?

But Grant Hill, Clyde Drexler, nor Jason Kidd shoot well from deep either, LOL!

But they aren't critiqued much here are they?

You're obviously taking this a little personally. I'm talking with you about this because you're talking with me about this, and I'm disagreeing with what you're saying. I'm stating my case, you're stating your case, and its a conversation. Its not personal Sonny. Its strictly boredom. I think I'm right, you think you're right, and ultimately, one of us is probably wrong.

The thing is, the point I'm making is empirical, its not really a questionable point. Your team's main minute hogs are not a strong 3pt shooters, and that gets exacerbated by putting KG at the 3.

I was about to breakdown everything piece by piece to show you why I thought the way I did, but Roy nailed it.

Also,

IP - where are u pulling up JO's shooting % from? On basketball-reference, he shot nearly 44% in 03-04.

http://www.82games.com/03IND13A.HTM

73% of his shots were jumpers, and he made 38% of those. He's a 38% jumpshooter.

[Roy H.]

The fact is that those players I listed are not critiqued much on here. Not sure if it is because I have the Lakers (on CelticsBlog) or what.

None of your individual players is being criticized, though.  It's your offense as a whole.  I haven't examined every team's proposed offense yet, but are other teams as reliant upon non-outside shooters?

(By the way, for whatever it's worth, the year you're using for Payton is one of the years with the closer 3PT line, which doesn't necessarily help your cause.)

[GreenFaith1819]

But anyway I don't think KG at the 3 in some lineup changes would be an offensive disaster at all.

The man shoots from deep right now - for Boston - and we love him here.

Here's your problem, though:

Kareem doesn't shoot threes
JO doesn't shoot threes
KG doesn't shoot threes
Joe Dumars only attempted 29 threes the entire season you picked for him
Gary Payton shot 32.8% from three (a pretty poor number)

That means that almost your entire offense is being conducted within the three point circle.  That makes your offense less lethal (i.e., the most you hope for on most possessions is two, rather than three, points), and it makes it much easier to defend.  Your offense is giving itself much less room to operate.  That's why Danny and Doc always talk about "floor stretchers".  KG has good range on his jumper, but not being able to go out beyond the three point line hurts.

But Grant Hill, Clyde Drexler, nor Jason Kidd shoot well from deep either, LOL!

But they aren't critiqued much here are they?

And please use the Playoff Numbers for Gary Payton - he in fact elevated his game for the playoffs for 95-96. He shot 486% and 410% from deep.

Is there another team that is proposing an offense with only one prolific three point shooter, who shot below 33%?

Teams can get away with weak shooters at certain positions, but they can't get away with weak outside shooters at *every* position.  A five man lineup where the best outside shooter hits 32.8% of his shots is a recipe for disaster. 

It will be up to panelists whether they want to weigh Payton's playoff shooting numbers over his regular season numbers.  I probably wouldn't be inclined to do so, but luckily for everyone, I'm not a panelist.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time at all, but I think a team that doesn't have a little more shooting is going to struggle a bit.

And that is the unfortunate (and not true) label being forced on my team.

Maybe it's believable to some coming from a Mod, but as I have presented the facts we have adequate remedies in Michael Cooper and Eddie Jones to remedy our outside shooting.

[StartOrien]

but as I have presented the facts we have adequate remedies in Michael Cooper and Eddie Jones to remedy our outside shooting.

Then, if you're that concerned about the argument, make THAT your argument

[Who]

I don't think LA's starting lineup's poor perimeter jump-shooting is that rare.

There are a couple of teams with limited to below average three point shooting in their starting unit.

[GreenFaith1819]

but as I have presented the facts we have adequate remedies in Michael Cooper and Eddie Jones to remedy our outside shooting.

Then, if you're that concerned about the argument, make THAT your argument

I've done that already, Man.