2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[GreenFaith1819]

And Lebron? Look he is an All-Time talent, but even HE is having trouble solving DAL right now.

And he had trouble solving BOS in 07-08 and in 09-10 - vs Elite TEAM defense, which is what I have in LA.

[Roy H.]

And the players you mentioned (VC, Nique, Lebron, Jordan) would get hounded by KG in this setting - to the point where KG is filtering them right into the waiting arms of Kareem, Ben Wallace or Jermaine O'Neal.

We'll see if the panelists agree, I guess.  I don't think the fact that KG once blocked Marion (a SF/PF, not a quick SF) is evidence of him being a great defenders of SFs, SGs, and PGs.

Again, when KG was actually playing in 2008, he played less than 2 minutes per game at SF, and zero minutes at SG or PG.  To say he can defend those positions against all-time greats just seems to be counter to the reality that actually happened.

Again, if KG could have played SG, then he would have played SG, at least at some point in his career.

[GreenFaith1819]

Plus, based on 82games, here are Lebron's position-by-position stats:

http://www.82games.com/1011/10MIA9.HTM#bypos

So can anyone here tell me otherwise that despite what is listed here for Lebron James, he did in fact play PG for some time during the season?

He did. I saw the games. He played PG, SG, SF and even some PF.

But none of his PG or SG time is listed in that reference.

So in short - yes KG did play all spots in Sota during 03-04. He may not have been listed there as such, but he played those spots.

[Roy H.]

Just so I'm clear in this game, what other all-time big men can guard SGs?

Can Kareem?  Can Hakeem?  Can Shaq?  Can Robinson?  Can Duncan?  Can Malone?  Can Amare?  Can Dikembe?  Can Walton? 

I guess things are getting a bit too theoretical for even, even for this draft.  The idea of KG at SG just defies common sense to me.

[Roy H.]

So in short - yes KG did play all spots in Sota during 03-04. He may not have been listed there as such, but he played those spots.

I guess I'll fall back on the old "prove it".  I don't remember it, and 82games.com doesn't have it listed.  That doesn't mean that it didn't happen, but I'd at least like some evidence.

[GreenFaith1819]

Roy - please see my above post in regards to Lebron.

[Who]

Kevin Garnett defended every top wing player when he was the starting SF (used as combo forward, started at SF but played a good chunk of his minutes at PF too) for Minnesota in his second and third seasons (until Googs got hurt) + he played a fair bit of small forward the following season after Minny acquired Joe Smith with KG starting about half the season again at SF.

It wasn't until late in that season that KG moved over to the PF position on a full time basis with only the odd scattered minutes at SF from that point onwards.

Garnett still had that same athletic ability when he was in his prime in 2004 that he had in 1997-2000 when he played the SF position on a regular basis.

[Who]

Just so I'm clear in this game, what other all-time big men can guard SGs?

Can Kareem?  Can Hakeem?  Can Shaq?  Can Robinson?  Can Duncan?  Can Malone?  Can Amare?  Can Dikembe?  Can Walton? 

I guess things are getting a bit too theoretical for even, even for this draft.  The idea of KG at SG just defies common sense to me.

None of the above.

[GreenFaith1819]

Just so I'm clear in this game, what other all-time big men can guard SGs?

Can Kareem?  Can Hakeem?  Can Shaq?  Can Robinson?  Can Duncan?  Can Malone?  Can Amare?  Can Dikembe?  Can Walton? 

I guess things are getting a bit too theoretical for even, even for this draft.  The idea of KG at SG just defies common sense to me.

And Roy - just to be clear - I'm talking limited minutes.

And yes - Hakeem could SG's, in limited minutes. The games I've seen with Hakeem and the youtube footage? He was that agile.

[StartOrien]

I'll have more about the fun-n-gun argument tomorrow I'm sure, but here's how I see it - If you're building an all time to run.....

Russell is the top center available (by a wide margin)
Barkley is the top PF
Nash is the second best PG

Wade is top 5
Marion is in the top 10
(I think both of those are probably conservative estimates, but wings are a little harder to judge)

I was wrong about this, I think you take KG over Barkley at the PF slot if you're looking to design a run-n-gun team.

To clarify, IMO you definitely take KG over Barkley, but in a run n gun setting I think KG has a smaller edge.

[Fafnir]

Again, if KG could have played SG, then he would have played SG, at least at some point in his career.

I don't think this is necessarily true. His best position is clearly PF where his rebounding and help defense have the most impact. So why would Minnesota play him anywhere else unless they had a good PF option that pushed him to another slot?

In this game there is a lot more talent in the frontcourt that allows for the optimal team line up to move KG further from the basket.

I don't think KG at SG is a good idea though, not as a major line up. Something you could use as a change of pace or situationally sure, but I'd keep him at a forward spot.

[KCattheStripe]

The supersonics plan on playing Hakeem at the point and Kidd at the center. Just for funsies.

[indeedproceed]

Kevin Garnett defended every top wing player when he was the starting SF (used as combo forward, started at SF but played a good chunk of his minutes at PF too) for Minnesota in his second and third seasons (until Googs got hurt) + he played a fair bit of small forward the following season after Minny acquired Joe Smith with KG starting about half the season again at SF.

It wasn't until late in that season that KG moved over to the PF position on a full time basis with only the odd scattered minutes at SF from that point onwards.

Garnett still had that same athletic ability when he was in his prime in 2004 that he had in 1997-2000 when he played the SF position on a regular basis.

For some reason I can't get into the 82games.com for 03-04 but in 04-05, looking at KG's top 10 minutes lineup and the top 20 5 man lineups, not a single one of them has KG listed at the SF in a big lineup. He might have defended wings, he might have played some minutes at the SF, but not a single one of the top statistical 5 man units or the top 5 man units for minutes played featured Garnett next to 2 frontcourt players. Garnett was much more likely to be the biggest guy in the lineup (and the default center) than he was to be the small forward.

I think its fools gold to think KG can play the 3 in this setting for anything but a few strategic minutes a game, just like its a little silly to peg LeBron as a PF full time, even though he could easily play 8 spot minutes there in a small ball lineup.

[Who]

Just so I'm clear in this game, what other all-time big men can guard SGs?

Can Kareem?  Can Hakeem?  Can Shaq?  Can Robinson?  Can Duncan?  Can Malone?  Can Amare?  Can Dikembe?  Can Walton? 

I guess things are getting a bit too theoretical for even, even for this draft.  The idea of KG at SG just defies common sense to me.

And Roy - just to be clear - I'm talking limited minutes.

And yes - Hakeem could SG's, in limited minutes. The games I've seen with Hakeem and the youtube footage? He was that agile.

I think a young Hakeem had the athleticism / quickness to defend SFs (and possibly SGs if he had an elite interior defense behind him, otherwise no) but he didn't have the defensive skill-set or experience of defending at that position. He would have to learn how to do that from scratch.

He is fine, better than fine, very good for a C with his ability to switch onto other positions and cover guys effectively as such ... but I wouldn't put him on a wing player for an extended period.

You can see it on the switches when he has to cover a guy like Michael Jordan and judge his comfort level there. Hakeem didn't have it. He didn't have the experience. He was uncomfortable away from the paint.

Kevin Garnett, on the other hand, has that skill-set (understanding of positioning and how to defend the dribble drive + jump shot of players of that ilk) + the experience of defending that position earlier in his career. He was capable of it.

Kevin Garnett can defend on the perimeter and do so at a high level.

[GreenFaith1819]

The supersonics plan on playing Hakeem at the point and Kidd at the center. Just for funsies.

Oh I'm moving Ben Wallace to PG, myself.

But seriously I do have a player on my roster that was call a "Point Forward" in Ralph Sampson, so I'm legit in that regard.