2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Who]

I think my 5 guys would outrun the other teams in the league with just as much regularity

I don't think your bigs can out-run Indiana.

[nickagneta]

Do players like Gary Payton or Sam Cassell or Steve Smith who jumped on the end of a bench at the end of their careers to win a championship while playing sparingly or quite awful, really make them championship level players their entire careers?

To me a championship caliber player is an player that during their prime was an integral part of winning a championship. The greats come to mind, of course, but a player like Sean Elliott, Robert Horry, John Salley, Danny Ainge, or Kurt Rambis, in my mind, would seem to fit the designation as a championship level player before a guy who got old and decided to jump on the end of a bench to get his ring because in his prime he couldn't do it.

Just one man's opinion. 

Karl Malone is a championship level player and he never won a championship.  So is Charles Barkley.  So is Patrick Ewing.  So are the modern players that have yet to win like Dirk, Kidd, James, etc.  Winning a championship is about having a team capable of winning a championship, some guys have it, some guys don't.

I mean would you rather have Robert Horry or Karl Malone?  Which would you consider a championship level player?  Winning a championship doesn't make you a championship level player or give you championship level talent, it just makes you a part of a team that won a championship. 


For these purposes I don't consider anyone a champion unless his team won the championship in the year selected.  Of course that has no bearing at all on how good I think the player is.

Yeah, I get that point to but if they were championship level talent, wouldn't they have won a championship in their prime?

BTW, this has nothing to do with this draft this is just a general observation. Sometime players, the elite players, just aren't good enough to win a championship. Barkley and Malone and Stockton are great examples. Truly Hall of Fame level talents but perhaps missing that extra something(mentally or character wise) that separates champions from great players. Allen Iverson had unreal talent...not even close to a championship level player in my book.

If KG was never traded to the Celtics, would you really be saying he wasn't a championship level player.  I mean people were saying he was a top five PF ever when he was still in Minnesota.  To say he wasn't a championship level talent is really quite silly.

Teams win championships not players even all time great players can't do it alone.  Jordan didn't even win a playoff series until he had Pippen.  In fact, Jordan was a stellar 1-9 in his first three playoffs (all without Pippen).  Next year with Pippen (as a rookie mind you) 4-6 in the post season beating the Cavs and losing to the Pistons.  Pippen much better in his second year and they make the conference finals again losing to the eventual champion Pistons, but going 9-8 in the playoffs.  Third year, they really push the eventual champion Pistons losing in 7 in the conference finals and improve the playoff record to 10-6.  After that is the first three-peat.

Now perhaps Jordan would have won a title eventually and he certainly would have won a playoff series at some point, but it would be a hard sell to say he would have done it as quickly without Scottie Pippen.  Teams win, not players.

I completely understand and respect this point.

I do.

But I believe differently and I don't think it silly. Just different.

For me there is Hall of Fame level talent and championship level talent.

All-time great players are Hall of Fame level talent but that doesn't necessarily make them championship level talent. Also, you can be a championship level talent but as a role player or a starter or bench guy without having Hall of Fame level talent. Glue guys on multiple championship teams fit this mold, like the ones I mentioned above.

It's maybe a different way of looking at things but it's how I see it.

[Who]

Magic Johnson = best starting PG in transition

Deron Williams = weakest starting PG in transition

[mgent]

I think my 5 guys would outrun the other teams in the league with just as much regularity

I don't think your bigs can out-run Indiana.

Neither do I.  But as someone else mentioned it's not a head to head comparison, but how our teams would fair against the rest of the league, and I think my bigs would still beat most of the other teams, even if Indiana's would beat all of them.  On the other hand I think my faster and more talented perimeter players make up for that (not even taking into consideration how much more your wings and especially your PG matter on the break).

[tenn_smoothie]

Do players like Gary Payton or Sam Cassell or Steve Smith who jumped on the end of a bench at the end of their careers to win a championship while playing sparingly or quite awful, really make them championship level players their entire careers?

To me a championship caliber player is an player that during their prime was an integral part of winning a championship. The greats come to mind, of course, but a player like Sean Elliott, Robert Horry, John Salley, Danny Ainge, or Kurt Rambis, in my mind, would seem to fit the designation as a championship level player before a guy who got old and decided to jump on the end of a bench to get his ring because in his prime he couldn't do it.

Just one man's opinion. 

Agreed - and a player who makes that late jump for a title opportunity are diminished in my eyes. i would have kept a high level of respect for Karl Malone had he not jumped on the Laker bandwagon after being a Jazz his entire career. that move was made even worse by the fact that he was so desperate that he sold out and played for one of the Jazz biggest rivals to try to get a ring.

Malone had his chances and wasn't able to get it done - so i don't call him a championship level player. i call him a great player who maybe didn't have that little extra inside himself that guys like Bird, Magic, Russell, Jordan, Cowens, Garnett, Duncan and Olajuwon had.

[mgent]

Do players like Gary Payton or Sam Cassell or Steve Smith who jumped on the end of a bench at the end of their careers to win a championship while playing sparingly or quite awful, really make them championship level players their entire careers?

To me a championship caliber player is an player that during their prime was an integral part of winning a championship. The greats come to mind, of course, but a player like Sean Elliott, Robert Horry, John Salley, Danny Ainge, or Kurt Rambis, in my mind, would seem to fit the designation as a championship level player before a guy who got old and decided to jump on the end of a bench to get his ring because in his prime he couldn't do it.

Just one man's opinion. 

Agreed - and a player who makes that late jump for a title opportunity are diminished in my eyes. i would have kept a high level of respect for Karl Malone had he not jumped on the Laker bandwagon after being a Jazz his entire career. that move was made even worse by the fact that he was so desperate that he sold out and played for one of the Jazz biggest rivals to try to get a ring.

Malone had his chances and wasn't able to get it done - so i don't call him a championship level player. i call him a great player who maybe didn't have that little extra inside himself that guys like Bird, Magic, Russell, Jordan, Cowens, Garnett, Duncan and Olajuwon had.

Ahhh, finally someone who understands the literal interpretation of a "championship level player" as a player who has won a championship, and not a guy who kinda-maybe-possibly-in-another-universe-with-better-players MIGHT have won a championship.

[Roy H.]

So, are Dirk and Lebron championship level players?

It just seems weird to me that right now, the answer for both is now "no", when we know for a fact that one of them is going to win a championship in less than two weeks.

To me, guys like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, etc., just ran into the Jordan / Pippen buzz saw.  I do think rings say a lot about a player, but I also think you need to look at other factors and circumstances. 

I am a bit of a hypocrite here, because I have a hard time considering a guy who never at least led his team to the Finals to be "great".  However, I think any player in this exercise could have easily been a key player on a championship team in the right circumstances.  I give bonus points to those who got it done, but I wouldn't hold it against a player too much unless he continually choked in the playoffs.

[nickagneta]

So, are Dirk and Lebron championship level players?

It just seems weird to me that right now, the answer for both is now "no", when we know for a fact that one of them is going to win a championship in less than two weeks.

To me, guys like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, etc., just ran into the Jordan / Pippen buzz saw.  I do think rings say a lot about a player, but I also think you need to look at other factors and circumstances. 

I am a bit of a hypocrite here, because I have a hard time considering a guy who never at least led his team to the Finals to be "great".  However, I think any player in this exercise could have easily been a key player on a championship team in the right circumstances.  I give bonus points to those who got it done, but I wouldn't hold it against a player too much unless he continually choked in the playoffs.

Funny you mention the Dirk/Lebron thing because that did come to mind. Lebron I do consider a championship level talent because I think, even if he doesn't win one this year, I think he will and would have eventually had he not gone to Miami.

Dirk, if he wins this is a championship level talent because he proves that he had that extra something to get the job done(last night's 4th with 102 degree fever was impressive). If he doesn't and never wins one, then he won't be a championship level talent.

[Roy H.]

Dirk, if he wins this is a championship level talent because he proves that he had that extra something to get the job done(last night's 4th with 102 degree fever was impressive). If he doesn't and never wins one, then he won't be a championship level talent.

Yeah, that's the part I don't buy into as much.  Dirk is an MVP who has led his team to the Finals twice.  To me, he's a championship-caliber player, even if he's never won a championship.  (And yes, the same goes for Lebron, who is now in his second Finals).

[indeedproceed]

Question for everyone:  How many NBA champions are on your roster?

Follow up:  Do you know how many Denver has?

Every Denver player has one.

Miami has 7. We do have 2 Finals Mvps, while Denver has zero.

it only counts if you actually use a year the team won a title.

Why?  A champion is a champion.

I'd only count 'experience' if they'd had 'experience' previous to the year picked, or during it. Otherwise, they never 'experienced' the experience to get the experience.

See what I'm saying? Listen, can you smell that?

[mgent]

This reminds me of a Chuck vs Kenny debate.  Kenny makes fun of Charles because he doesn't have a ring.  Charles says "Oh, but you had Hakeem, so those rings aren't really yours."  Kenny says "But you played with Hakeem too, so where are your rings?"

It can go back and forth forever.  You can argue all you want that Barkley should have a ring.  Yet he went to the playoffs a ton of times with 3 different talented teams and it didn't happen.  You can't change the circumstances with that and not say that if circumstances were different that Larry should have 10 rings.

You can compare talent all you want, Ray to Reggie, LeBron to Jordan.  But at the end of the day rings are what separate them.

[indeedproceed]

You can compare talent all you want, Ray to Reggie, LeBron to Jordan.  But at the end of the day rings are what separate them.

Yeah but in this game that logic is flawed because, at age 27, Ray Allen and Reggie Miller had the same number of rings, and that's what we're comparing.

Same with KG/Malone (for the years picked).

I don' think there is anything wrong with selling your guys as 'NBA Champions', but make sure they won one in the year your picked or before it, because otherwise, it doesn't make any sense.

[GreenFaith1819]

Wow - I stepped away for a bit and the conversation has drifted onto "Championship-Level" players.

From what I've read so far the last 3-4 pages, the debate has mentioned Gary Payton Karl Malone, and a few others.

Well, in short - Yes - Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Shawn Kemp, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Kevin Johnson, and Majerle - are all championship-level players.

Even Patrick Ewing went to a Finals.

Their only discretion is that they all faced Michael Jordan (and Scotty).

The funny thing with Michael is that lost in the hoopla of how "great" he was (because he was indeed great), is that he needed Scotty.

No way that Michael wins six without Scotty. He'd win maybe two rings (if that) without Scotty Pippen?

The unfortunate thing is that these players did not actually defeat Jordan (and Scotty) and win a ring, but they actually competed on that level, and in my eyes they are considered as such.

Can't really hold Michael (and Scotty) against these players.

As a matter of fact at least a few of them have already been accepted to the HOF - I think Stockton, Malone, Charles, Patrick - have made it in?

I am shocked that one of the best Defensive and all-around PGs of all time has not made it yet (Gary Payton).

Can't really hold the fact that he got a ring towards the latter end of his career against him.

[StartOrien]

I'll have more about the fun-n-gun argument tomorrow I'm sure, but here's how I see it - If you're building an all time to run.....

Russell is the top center available (by a wide margin)
Barkley is the top PF
Nash is the second best PG

Wade is top 5
Marion is in the top 10
(I think both of those are probably conservative estimates, but wings are a little harder to judge)

[nickagneta]

I'll have more about the fun-n-gun argument tomorrow I'm sure, but here's how I see it - If you're building an all time to run.....

Russell is the top center available (by a wide margin)
Barkley is the top PF
Nash is the second best PG

Wade is top 5
Marion is in the top 10
(I think both of those are probably conservative estimates, but wings are a little harder to judge)

And as I said before about 150 pages ago, if there are three guys who would force their will upon a game to dictate the pace they would want to play at its Russell, Barkley and Nash.