Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Surferdad]

1. It seems Joe, like Doc Rivers, prefers stars and rookies (and his teams choke like Dc Rivers too).
2. The timeout issue- the studies can't say which is better because every timeout is different. Joe doesn't often seem to have quality timeouts. A lot of us believe that timeouts are important because we have watched great coaches affect the game with a timeout.  Whereas Joe's timeouts suck and the team plays the exact same way afterwards.

The main purpose of timeouts is stop runs, since basketball - especially at this level - is such a momentum game.  That's totally lost on Joe who, not surprisingly, never played in the NBA.

They don't always work - but you have a better chance of slowing the other team down calling a TO vs not and letting a run continue - especially when you're playing on the road.

The question is HOW do timeouts stop runs? Gove your team a breather and help them regroup? Distract the other team and ice them? Make an adjustment or substitution that turns the tide?
Joe can't or won't do any of these things.

Mid/End of 3rd qtr Atlanta gets back into the game basically because of bonehead plays from our stars (JB turnover, JT turnover and subsequent clear path foul, etc) and letting Atl take uncontested 3s. Joe then called a timeout.  Players came out w more focused offensive execution and better defense on the 3pt line, Atlanta never got closer (but still kept it within striking distance). Is that what you guys mean?

Yes, that is what we are talking about.  I will have to go back and watch the 3rd quarter.

Right. As in this example, it's more about getting the team to re-group, calm down and focus on defense rather than stopping offensive momentum by Atlanta.

[SparzWizard]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

[ozgod]

Off with his head!

[ausbacker]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?

[SparzWizard]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?

Exactly. You have your assistants now. There's zero excuses as to not having anything else in the playbook but shoot 3's all day long. This is terrible. Should have been fired last year ago.

[Moranis]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?

Exactly. You have your assistants now. There's zero excuses as to not having anything else in the playbook but shoot 3's all day long. This is terrible. Should have been fired last year ago.

except almost none of the players are good at anything else.  Roster problem.

[Roy H.]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?

Exactly. You have your assistants now. There's zero excuses as to not having anything else in the playbook but shoot 3's all day long. This is terrible. Should have been fired last year ago.

except almost none of the players are good at anything else.  Roster problem.

I don't love parts of our roster, but the idea that none of the players are good at anything besides threes is silly.  Tatum is shooting 61% from inside the arc.  KP is at 70.5%.  White 56.0%.  Brown 53.2%.

We're second in 3PAs, but 16th in 3PT%.

Meanwhile, we're 3rd in 2PT%, but last in 2PAs.

We're also 25th in assists.

So, the comments about needing more ball movement and more inside shots seem spot on to me.

[mobilija]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?

Ummm....this is the coaching strategy. Lots of Drive and kick and movement on initial actions.

What ur complaining about is a player problem. Several players tend towards stagnation and playing classic NBA style 1 on 1 offense. Especially as the game gets tight.

Holding the ball and playing Melo style 1 on 1 has been a trait of JTs since coming out of college. He infects the whole team with this style. Starting last year and into this year he is getting better at involving teammates in actions. Is he just naturally evolving or is he being coached to do this?

Remember last years start? The offensive explosion coming from off ball movement and lots of ball sharing resulting in tons of made 3s. Who coached that?

[Moranis]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?

Exactly. You have your assistants now. There's zero excuses as to not having anything else in the playbook but shoot 3's all day long. This is terrible. Should have been fired last year ago.

except almost none of the players are good at anything else.  Roster problem.

I don't love parts of our roster, but the idea that none of the players are good at anything besides threes is silly.  Tatum is shooting 61% from inside the arc.  KP is at 70.5%.  White 56.0%.  Brown 53.2%.

We're second in 3PAs, but 16th in 3PT%.

Meanwhile, we're 3rd in 2PT%, but last in 2PAs.

We're also 25th in assists.

So, the comments about needing more ball movement and more inside shots seem spot on to me.

or they do so well because it is wide open because of the 3's. Porzingis has never shot above 56% from 2 at any point in his career (that was last year, before that his best was under 54%). He is taking a much higher percentage of his 2 point shots at the rim and is up 10% over last year from that range. In fact every single range inside of 16 feet he is up over 10%.  He is taking more 3's, but that opened up the inside and allows him to take better shots on the inside.

Tatum can do more, which why I said ALMOST. Tatum is shooting 3's at the same rate as last year, but he has upped his number of shot attempts at the basket and has improved that percentage. He has cut down on some of the 3 to 10 foot range shots and by doing so has increased his percentage. His 2 point percentage is up a fair amount with less than 1 less attempt. He is smarter about the shots though. Even his 3 point percentage is up from last year.

Jrue simply hasn't played very well offensively.  His 2 point percentage is down a ton from last year (and is down from every range) and his 3 point percent is also down.  Jrue's attempt rate is virtually identical to last year except he has moved some long 2's out to the 3 line and is just shooting a lot less as he is now a 3.5 option instead of a 2nd option. He just isnt hitting shots from basically anywhere. That is not a good sign given his age.

Like Jrue, Brown just isn't shooting well, but his attempt rates have been similar for years (like back to Stevens).  He just isn't hitting his shots at a high enough percentage.

Even White has similar attempt rates as his time in San Antonio, he is just shooting the ball so well his efficiency has skyrocketed.

Horford has definitely moved outward as he has aged, but that is typical and it isn't like he was ever a dominate inside force.  Even still he is taking more of his attempts at the basket since his first stint in Boston this year and is shooting a career high from that range. 

The simple reality is this teams plays this way because that is the skill set of the team. 

[mobilija]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?

Exactly. You have your assistants now. There's zero excuses as to not having anything else in the playbook but shoot 3's all day long. This is terrible. Should have been fired last year ago.

except almost none of the players are good at anything else.  Roster problem.

I don't love parts of our roster, but the idea that none of the players are good at anything besides threes is silly.  Tatum is shooting 61% from inside the arc.  KP is at 70.5%.  White 56.0%.  Brown 53.2%.

We're second in 3PAs, but 16th in 3PT%.

Meanwhile, we're 3rd in 2PT%, but last in 2PAs.

We're also 25th in assists.

So, the comments about needing more ball movement and more inside shots seem spot on to me.

or they do so well because it is wide open because of the 3's. Porzingis has never shot above 56% from 2 at any point in his career (that was last year, before that his best was under 54%). He is taking a much higher percentage of his 2 point shots at the rim and is up 10% over last year from that range. In fact every single range inside of 16 feet he is up over 10%.  He is taking more 3's, but that opened up the inside and allows him to take better shots on the inside.

Tatum can do more, which why I said ALMOST. Tatum is shooting 3's at the same rate as last year, but he has upped his number of shot attempts at the basket and has improved that percentage. He has cut down on some of the 3 to 10 foot range shots and by doing so has increased his percentage. His 2 point percentage is up a fair amount with less than 1 less attempt. He is smarter about the shots though. Even his 3 point percentage is up from last year.

Jrue simply hasn't played very well offensively.  His 2 point percentage is down a ton from last year (and is down from every range) and his 3 point percent is also down.  Jrue's attempt rate is virtually identical to last year except he has moved some long 2's out to the 3 line and is just shooting a lot less as he is now a 3.5 option instead of a 2nd option. He just isnt hitting shots from basically anywhere. That is not a good sign given his age.

Like Jrue, Brown just isn't shooting well, but his attempt rates have been similar for years (like back to Stevens).  He just isn't hitting his shots at a high enough percentage.

Even White has similar attempt rates as his time in San Antonio, he is just shooting the ball so well his efficiency has skyrocketed.

Horford has definitely moved outward as he has aged, but that is typical and it isn't like he was ever a dominate inside force.  Even still he is taking more of his attempts at the basket since his first stint in Boston this year and is shooting a career high from that range. 

The simple reality is this teams plays this way because that is the skill set of the team.

No starters are simply only good at 3pt shots, unless hauser is starting. They all have well rounded games, it isnt that they are "no good at anything else." In fact I dont  think 3pt shooting is the single best skill of any of the starters. Jrue, defense. White, defense and ball movement. JB, transition. Horford, extremely well rounded. Porzingis, I'm not sure what his best skill is. JT, shot creation.

What your describing is a coaching strategy. Shoot high volume of 3s to open up the court and create high % 2pt opportunities. So far its largely worked.

[Goldstar88]

I can’t believe Joe allowed the Pacers to shoot 47.5% from 3pt. I mean, what was he even thinking??? 

[Moranis]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?

Exactly. You have your assistants now. There's zero excuses as to not having anything else in the playbook but shoot 3's all day long. This is terrible. Should have been fired last year ago.

except almost none of the players are good at anything else.  Roster problem.

I don't love parts of our roster, but the idea that none of the players are good at anything besides threes is silly.  Tatum is shooting 61% from inside the arc.  KP is at 70.5%.  White 56.0%.  Brown 53.2%.

We're second in 3PAs, but 16th in 3PT%.

Meanwhile, we're 3rd in 2PT%, but last in 2PAs.

We're also 25th in assists.

So, the comments about needing more ball movement and more inside shots seem spot on to me.

or they do so well because it is wide open because of the 3's. Porzingis has never shot above 56% from 2 at any point in his career (that was last year, before that his best was under 54%). He is taking a much higher percentage of his 2 point shots at the rim and is up 10% over last year from that range. In fact every single range inside of 16 feet he is up over 10%.  He is taking more 3's, but that opened up the inside and allows him to take better shots on the inside.

Tatum can do more, which why I said ALMOST. Tatum is shooting 3's at the same rate as last year, but he has upped his number of shot attempts at the basket and has improved that percentage. He has cut down on some of the 3 to 10 foot range shots and by doing so has increased his percentage. His 2 point percentage is up a fair amount with less than 1 less attempt. He is smarter about the shots though. Even his 3 point percentage is up from last year.

Jrue simply hasn't played very well offensively.  His 2 point percentage is down a ton from last year (and is down from every range) and his 3 point percent is also down.  Jrue's attempt rate is virtually identical to last year except he has moved some long 2's out to the 3 line and is just shooting a lot less as he is now a 3.5 option instead of a 2nd option. He just isnt hitting shots from basically anywhere. That is not a good sign given his age.

Like Jrue, Brown just isn't shooting well, but his attempt rates have been similar for years (like back to Stevens).  He just isn't hitting his shots at a high enough percentage.

Even White has similar attempt rates as his time in San Antonio, he is just shooting the ball so well his efficiency has skyrocketed.

Horford has definitely moved outward as he has aged, but that is typical and it isn't like he was ever a dominate inside force.  Even still he is taking more of his attempts at the basket since his first stint in Boston this year and is shooting a career high from that range. 

The simple reality is this teams plays this way because that is the skill set of the team.

No starters are simply only good at 3pt shots, unless hauser is starting. They all have well rounded games, it isnt that they are "no good at anything else." In fact I dont  think 3pt shooting is the single best skill of any of the starters. Jrue, defense. White, defense and ball movement. JB, transition. Horford, extremely well rounded. Porzingis, I'm not sure what his best skill is. JT, shot creation.

What your describing is a coaching strategy. Shoot high volume of 3s to open up the court and create high % 2pt opportunities. So far its largely worked.

The only best skill you described that is a half court offensive skill is JT's shot creation, but JT is not a great shot creator.  He is good at it, but not great. His AST%, TOV%, FTr, and other creation indicators are good, but he isn't a great passer.  He doesn't really create for others all that well.  That is largely why he and Brown don't fit well together, because Brown is terrible at it. 

And it is a coaching strategy, but it is one that the team employs because of the skill set of the players.  Boston has played this way since Stevens.  Joe has really doubled down on it, but the team (like the league) is moving farther out and shooting more.  Because the team doesn't have any other way to play.  They don't have a guy like Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, prime-Lebron, etc.  They don't have a guy that even with being double teamed can get a shot off or find an open man.  That just isn't how this team can play.  They just don't have the players.

[Kernewek]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

I realise this is not what you meant but I am pretty sure he wanted his guys to make all 41 3's.

[mobilija]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?

Exactly. You have your assistants now. There's zero excuses as to not having anything else in the playbook but shoot 3's all day long. This is terrible. Should have been fired last year ago.

except almost none of the players are good at anything else.  Roster problem.

I don't love parts of our roster, but the idea that none of the players are good at anything besides threes is silly.  Tatum is shooting 61% from inside the arc.  KP is at 70.5%.  White 56.0%.  Brown 53.2%.

We're second in 3PAs, but 16th in 3PT%.

Meanwhile, we're 3rd in 2PT%, but last in 2PAs.

We're also 25th in assists.

So, the comments about needing more ball movement and more inside shots seem spot on to me.

or they do so well because it is wide open because of the 3's. Porzingis has never shot above 56% from 2 at any point in his career (that was last year, before that his best was under 54%). He is taking a much higher percentage of his 2 point shots at the rim and is up 10% over last year from that range. In fact every single range inside of 16 feet he is up over 10%.  He is taking more 3's, but that opened up the inside and allows him to take better shots on the inside.

Tatum can do more, which why I said ALMOST. Tatum is shooting 3's at the same rate as last year, but he has upped his number of shot attempts at the basket and has improved that percentage. He has cut down on some of the 3 to 10 foot range shots and by doing so has increased his percentage. His 2 point percentage is up a fair amount with less than 1 less attempt. He is smarter about the shots though. Even his 3 point percentage is up from last year.

Jrue simply hasn't played very well offensively.  His 2 point percentage is down a ton from last year (and is down from every range) and his 3 point percent is also down.  Jrue's attempt rate is virtually identical to last year except he has moved some long 2's out to the 3 line and is just shooting a lot less as he is now a 3.5 option instead of a 2nd option. He just isnt hitting shots from basically anywhere. That is not a good sign given his age.

Like Jrue, Brown just isn't shooting well, but his attempt rates have been similar for years (like back to Stevens).  He just isn't hitting his shots at a high enough percentage.

Even White has similar attempt rates as his time in San Antonio, he is just shooting the ball so well his efficiency has skyrocketed.

Horford has definitely moved outward as he has aged, but that is typical and it isn't like he was ever a dominate inside force.  Even still he is taking more of his attempts at the basket since his first stint in Boston this year and is shooting a career high from that range. 

The simple reality is this teams plays this way because that is the skill set of the team.

No starters are simply only good at 3pt shots, unless hauser is starting. They all have well rounded games, it isnt that they are "no good at anything else." In fact I dont  think 3pt shooting is the single best skill of any of the starters. Jrue, defense. White, defense and ball movement. JB, transition. Horford, extremely well rounded. Porzingis, I'm not sure what his best skill is. JT, shot creation.

What your describing is a coaching strategy. Shoot high volume of 3s to open up the court and create high % 2pt opportunities. So far its largely worked.

The only best skill you described that is a half court offensive skill is JT's shot creation, but JT is not a great shot creator.  He is good at it, but not great. His AST%, TOV%, FTr, and other creation indicators are good, but he isn't a great passer.  He doesn't really create for others all that well.  That is largely why he and Brown don't fit well together, because Brown is terrible at it. 

And it is a coaching strategy, but it is one that the team employs because of the skill set of the players.  Boston has played this way since Stevens.  Joe has really doubled down on it, but the team (like the league) is moving farther out and shooting more.  Because the team doesn't have any other way to play.  They don't have a guy like Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, prime-Lebron, etc.  They don't have a guy that even with being double teamed can get a shot off or find an open man.  That just isn't how this team can play.  They just don't have the players.

JTs best skill ia not 3pt shooting. The best thing he does is create gravity, i guess that's not a skill, but its one of the things that makes this team hum. I would say for his size, his handles are better than his shooting.

JB, if you dont like transition as a skill then pick attacking the rim or mid range shooting. Both are better skills of his rather than 3pt shooting.

White, he was a marginal 3pt shooter till last year after being in the system for awhile. His best skills are clearly facilitating ball movement, just not as a primary initiate offense. He can do that but he's more of a pivot passer. Hell, i think his drives w hesitation at the rim are better than his new found 3pt shooting.

Jrue, I'm just not sure honestly. I havent watched him enuff outside of Boston games and he just hasnt shot well. But clearly defense is his best skill. But if you wanna nit pick one side of the ball then thats a you thing.

Horford is an absolute swiss army knife, thats a skill. In fact its all skills. He didn't become an elite 3pt shooter till last year.

The point is none of these guys are defined by solely their 3pt shooting. They are all dangerous in multiple ways which is what makes them great players not just great 3pt shooters. Would this strategy be working if we had a whole bunch of different sized Hausers on the team?

[ozgod]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

I realise this is not what you meant but I am pretty sure he wanted his guys to make all 41 3's.

Technically if they had made 3 or 4 more 3s it would have been a different ending