Author Topic: Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching  (Read 784932 times)

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Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1365 on: December 11, 2023, 10:41:39 AM »

Online Roy H.

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He's clearly a Stevens guy but I can't help but feel, now that Grant and Marcus are gone, that Mazz is on thin ice.

Yes, I think that's right, or at least I hope it is.  Mazz seems like a Stevens guy, but I'm not sure that Wyc is a true believer.


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Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1366 on: December 11, 2023, 12:42:03 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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If only we had Pop as coach. Oh, wait… The Spurs are 3-18.   :-X

You've proven once again, wins and losses are primarily a product of talent.  That's why great coaches can have poor records, and terrible coaches can have good records.




And this describes the Pats , 
Excellent coach , but without Tom Brady coach is now swimming up stream. Looks underwhelming minus the goat QB , no win situation for coach .

So,  if the Celtics can meld together a bit more and stay healthy,  a good solid experienced coach like Carlisle or Nurse should be able to win a title .  Joe is like an Average Driver thrown into a 1000HP F1 Ferrari and hanging on for dear life. 

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1367 on: December 11, 2023, 12:44:40 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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If only we had Pop as coach. Oh, wait… The Spurs are 3-18.   :-X

You've proven once again, wins and losses are primarily a product of talent.  That's why great coaches can have poor records, and terrible coaches can have good records.




And this describes the Pats , 
Excellent coach , but without Tom Brady coach is now swimming up stream. Looks underwhelming minus the goat QB , no win situation for coach .

So,  if the Celtics can meld together a bit more and stay healthy,  a good solid experienced coach like Carlisle or Nurse should be able to win a title .  Joe is like an Average Driver thrown into a 1000HP F1 Ferrari and hanging on for dear life.

Maybe - but, for conversation's sake, do you think we win a title with Doc Rivers*? And how do you rate Doc vs Carlisle, Nurse, Mazz, etc.

*I think we would stand a decent chance, to be honest.
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Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1368 on: December 11, 2023, 01:01:08 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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If only we had Pop as coach. Oh, wait… The Spurs are 3-18.   :-X

You've proven once again, wins and losses are primarily a product of talent.  That's why great coaches can have poor records, and terrible coaches can have good records.




And this describes the Pats , 
Excellent coach , but without Tom Brady coach is now swimming up stream. Looks underwhelming minus the goat QB , no win situation for coach .

So,  if the Celtics can meld together a bit more and stay healthy,  a good solid experienced coach like Carlisle or Nurse should be able to win a title .  Joe is like an Average Driver thrown into a 1000HP F1 Ferrari and hanging on for dear life.

Maybe - but, for conversation's sake, do you think we win a title with Doc Rivers*? And how do you rate Doc vs Carlisle, Nurse, Mazz, etc.

*I think we would stand a decent chance, to be honest.

What about coach Bud? Didn’t he just recently win a championship with the Bucks. Is he going to get the C’s over the hump? I mean, he did it in Milwaukee, so why hasn’t anyone hired him..
« Last Edit: December 11, 2023, 01:21:59 PM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1369 on: December 11, 2023, 01:01:59 PM »

Online Vermont Green

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I think the Popovich to Belichick comparison is far more apt than Popovich to Mazzulla.  You don't hear anyone saying that Popovich has "lost his fastball", at least not around here, but most everyone seems to think that is the case with Belichick.  No one seems to say it was all Tim Duncan, but many think it was all Tom Brady.

With Mazzulla, you don't know if he even has a good fastball or not, at least not yet.  You don't with Udoka either.  Udoka had more of an assistant coaching track record to look at, but do you really know any more about Udoka as a head coach than you do Mazzulla?  And when did you know that Erik Spoelstra was a good coach?  And is he a good coach or is he benefiting from working in Pat Riley's organization?

I would say that Mazzulla has done enough to prove he is not a "bad" coach but not enough still to say he is a good coach or a great coach.  He stepped in under difficult circumstances but he got a really good team. 

In my view, the glaring issue so far is the team does not play well on the road.  I see that as a byproduct of relying on the 3 too much.  But is it the coach's fault that the team shoots 40.6% at home and 32.6% on the road?    Only 36.1% in the 4th QTR overall?  Will the team regress to the mean and shoot more to the overall average on the road over time?  Probably, but it wouldn't hurt to take it to the hoop more.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2023, 01:21:58 PM by Vermont Green »

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1370 on: December 11, 2023, 01:22:36 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I would say that Mazzulla has done enough to prove he is not a "bad" coach...

How so?  What separates Joe from being in the bottom 5 to 10 head coaches?


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Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1371 on: December 11, 2023, 01:41:03 PM »

Offline Atzar

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Depends on whether we continue giving all of the credit for good performances to the players (except Brown) and all of the blame for bad performances to the coach (and Brown).

I know that's just fandom, to a point.  Some Golden State fans want Kerr fired right now, for example.  I'm generally convinced that fans of any sport can't accurately assess the job a coach is doing. 

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1372 on: December 11, 2023, 01:54:00 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Depends on whether we continue giving all of the credit for good performances to the players (except Brown) and all of the blame for bad performances to the coach (and Brown).

I know that's just fandom, to a point.  Some Golden State fans want Kerr fired right now, for example.  I'm generally convinced that fans of any sport can't accurately assess the job a coach is doing.

This is really it isn't it...ultimately we're all forming subjective opinions based on what little we can see, which is basically game performance and results, and deciding who to apportion credit and blame to on that basis. I think a lot of it is to do with our individual philosophy on what a coach should do vs. what the players should do. For example, in a sport like the NFL, the coaching staff play a huge role in a game, they select the plays after each stoppage, they sub players in and out, their fingerprints are all over the game. Other than calling audibles there's very little potential for freestyling or improvisation, which is generally looked on negatively. In a sport like soccer or rugby it's the opposite - once the game starts the coach really just stands on the sideline and tries to scream out instructions, none of which can be heard since the play moves up and down the field so quickly. It's all up to the players at that point, they control what is going on.

Basketball is kind of in the middle - the coach can call out plays or coverages but generally, especially at the professional level, I feel like that's usually done at the player level. They know the general plays and sets they want to run, the coach might call a timeout to run a specific play and he obviously has his substitution patterns, but for the most part I feel like when they do pull up 3s or drive and kicks Joe's not yelling at them from the sideline telilng them what to do every step of the way. The way they play, now that's something that I think they would work out in training camp as a guiding principle, but the actual executing that gets done I feel is largely player driven. Which is why great teams can survive with bad coaches as long as they are all in tune with each other and know what they are trying to do.

Now where the coach starts to earn his keep is when they hit adversity, whether it's during the season, with a string of losses, an injury or something of that nature, or in the game itself, where another team goes on a run and the coach decides to help them out by calling a timeout or making a sub. It's probably this aspect of the game that Mazzulla is being judged and found wanting - because it's during times of adversity that fans look to him to do something, arrest the slide, and if he doesn't, he gets held accountable. Or if we see behavior from the players we don't like (like pull up 3s early in the shot clock, or drop coverage) and it continues, we assume either he's ok with it or he lacks the strength to force the change we want.

BUT...these debates about the coach, and players, are the lifeblood of forums...otherwise we'd have nothing to talk or argue about. The fact that none of us can be proven right or wrong is just the icing on the cake  :police:
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1373 on: December 11, 2023, 02:02:32 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Depends on whether we continue giving all of the credit for good performances to the players (except Brown) and all of the blame for bad performances to the coach (and Brown).

I know that's just fandom, to a point.  Some Golden State fans want Kerr fired right now, for example.  I'm generally convinced that fans of any sport can't accurately assess the job a coach is doing.

This is really it isn't it...ultimately we're all forming subjective opinions based on what little we can see, which is basically game performance and results, and deciding who to apportion credit and blame to on that basis. I think a lot of it is to do with our individual philosophy on what a coach should do vs. what the players should do. For example, in a sport like the NFL, the coaching staff play a huge role in a game, they select the plays after each stoppage, they sub players in and out, their fingerprints are all over the game. Other than calling audibles there's very little potential for freestyling or improvisation, which is generally looked on negatively. In a sport like soccer or rugby it's the opposite - once the game starts the coach really just stands on the sideline and tries to scream out instructions, none of which can be heard since the play moves up and down the field so quickly. It's all up to the players at that point, they control what is going on.

Basketball is kind of in the middle - the coach can call out plays or coverages but generally, especially at the professional level, I feel like that's usually done at the player level. They know the general plays and sets they want to run, the coach might call a timeout to run a specific play and he obviously has his substitution patterns, but for the most part I feel like when they do pull up 3s or drive and kicks Joe's not yelling at them from the sideline telilng them what to do every step of the way. The way they play, now that's something that I think they would work out in training camp as a guiding principle, but the actual executing that gets done I feel is largely player driven. Which is why great teams can survive with bad coaches as long as they are all in tune with each other and know what they are trying to do.

Now where the coach starts to earn his keep is when they hit adversity, whether it's during the season, with a string of losses, an injury or something of that nature, or in the game itself, where another team goes on a run and the coach decides to help them out by calling a timeout or making a sub. It's probably this aspect of the game that Mazzulla is being judged and found wanting - because it's during times of adversity that fans look to him to do something, arrest the slide, and if he doesn't, he gets held accountable. Or if we see behavior from the players we don't like (like pull up 3s early in the shot clock, or drop coverage) and it continues, we assume either he's ok with it or he lacks the strength to force the change we want.

It's not *only* personal observation.

It's Tatum saying Ime was his favorite coach, while playing under Joe.  It's Marcus saying that Joe was "rightfully" criticized.  It's Wyc getting out of his seat at a playoff game and screaming at Joe.  It's Brogdon and others saying there was no commitment to defense.

It's Ime's own dumb statements, such as "shoot more threes", "no adjustments", "I didn't preach defense because I thought it was obvious", etc.

And yes, it's the observations, from lack of timeouts to inability to make in-game adjustments to losing to inferior teams in the playoffs.


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Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1374 on: December 11, 2023, 02:21:05 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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I’m not really that critical of Joe and have even mostly defended him because I believe it’s the culture of the team under our best players that have caused most of our issues and they should win if I was the head coach buts it’s pretty clear he puts us at a disadvantage and this team needs and depends on there coach and they should’ve hired Nick nurse

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1375 on: December 11, 2023, 02:31:24 PM »

Offline Yuckabuck33

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When did Wyc get out of his seat to yell at Joe? How did I miss that? That's pretty telling.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1376 on: December 11, 2023, 02:34:51 PM »

Online Roy H.

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When did Wyc get out of his seat to yell at Joe? How did I miss that? That's pretty telling.

During the Miami series.  I don't think there was video, so it didn't get the coverage that it merited. 

Edit:  It was after Game 3.  Wyc yelled at Joe, and after the game, went into the locker room and told the players to show some "balls".
« Last Edit: December 11, 2023, 02:43:07 PM by Roy H. »


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Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1377 on: December 11, 2023, 02:39:25 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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Depends on whether we continue giving all of the credit for good performances to the players (except Brown) and all of the blame for bad performances to the coach (and Brown).

I know that's just fandom, to a point.  Some Golden State fans want Kerr fired right now, for example.  I'm generally convinced that fans of any sport can't accurately assess the job a coach is doing.

This is really it isn't it...ultimately we're all forming subjective opinions based on what little we can see, which is basically game performance and results, and deciding who to apportion credit and blame to on that basis. I think a lot of it is to do with our individual philosophy on what a coach should do vs. what the players should do. For example, in a sport like the NFL, the coaching staff play a huge role in a game, they select the plays after each stoppage, they sub players in and out, their fingerprints are all over the game. Other than calling audibles there's very little potential for freestyling or improvisation, which is generally looked on negatively. In a sport like soccer or rugby it's the opposite - once the game starts the coach really just stands on the sideline and tries to scream out instructions, none of which can be heard since the play moves up and down the field so quickly. It's all up to the players at that point, they control what is going on.

Basketball is kind of in the middle - the coach can call out plays or coverages but generally, especially at the professional level, I feel like that's usually done at the player level. They know the general plays and sets they want to run, the coach might call a timeout to run a specific play and he obviously has his substitution patterns, but for the most part I feel like when they do pull up 3s or drive and kicks Joe's not yelling at them from the sideline telilng them what to do every step of the way. The way they play, now that's something that I think they would work out in training camp as a guiding principle, but the actual executing that gets done I feel is largely player driven. Which is why great teams can survive with bad coaches as long as they are all in tune with each other and know what they are trying to do.

Now where the coach starts to earn his keep is when they hit adversity, whether it's during the season, with a string of losses, an injury or something of that nature, or in the game itself, where another team goes on a run and the coach decides to help them out by calling a timeout or making a sub. It's probably this aspect of the game that Mazzulla is being judged and found wanting - because it's during times of adversity that fans look to him to do something, arrest the slide, and if he doesn't, he gets held accountable. Or if we see behavior from the players we don't like (like pull up 3s early in the shot clock, or drop coverage) and it continues, we assume either he's ok with it or he lacks the strength to force the change we want.

It's not *only* personal observation.

It's Tatum saying Ime was his favorite coach, while playing under Joe.  It's Marcus saying that Joe was "rightfully" criticized.  It's Wyc getting out of his seat at a playoff game and screaming at Joe.  It's Brogdon and others saying there was no commitment to defense.

It's Ime's own dumb statements, such as "shoot more threes", "no adjustments", "I didn't preach defense because I thought it was obvious", etc.

And yes, it's the observations, from lack of timeouts to inability to make in-game adjustments to losing to inferior teams in the playoffs.
You mean Joe, right?

However, you are correct, all of our statements about the merits of head coaches boil down to equal parts inference and observation.
"...unceasingly we are bombarded with pseudo-realities manufactured by very sophisticated people using very sophisticated electronic mechanisms. I do not distrust their motives; I distrust their power. They have a lot of it."

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1378 on: December 11, 2023, 08:46:52 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Best record in the NBA? Best net rating in the NBA? Better fire the coach.

What a joke.
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Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #1379 on: December 11, 2023, 09:26:29 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Best record in the NBA? Best net rating in the NBA? Better fire the coach.

What a joke.

We don't have the best record in the NBA, but I'm curious:  what do you think our record would be with a poor NBA coach?  How bad could a team with our top-6 be?


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