Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[jambr380]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

I realise this is not what you meant but I am pretty sure he wanted his guys to make all 41 3's.

Technically if they had made 3 or 4 more 3s it would have been a different ending 

The game was tied with a couple of minutes left in the game. The ending could have gone completely differently - we shouldn't have had to make 3 or 4 more 3s and we shouldn't have given up as many as we did (or been in that position in the first place).

[tenn_smoothie]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?[/b]

Ummm....this is the coaching strategy. Lots of Drive and kick and movement on initial actions.

What ur complaining about is a player problem. Several players tend towards stagnation and playing classic NBA style 1 on 1 offense. Especially as the game gets tight.

Holding the ball and playing Melo style 1 on 1 has been a trait of JTs since coming out of college. He infects the whole team with this style. Starting last year and into this year he is getting better at involving teammates in actions. Is he just naturally evolving or is he being coached to do this?

Remember last years start? The offensive explosion coming from off ball movement and lots of ball sharing resulting in tons of made 3s. Who coached that?

Exactly right, that off-ball movement was Joe's idea and implementation. He talked about watching film all summer to see how to improve the offense and did it. What is weird, eventually last year's team slowly slid back into less movement and more step-back 3's and apparently Joe did nothing to get them back on track with his offensive improvements.

[mobilija]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?[/b]

Ummm....this is the coaching strategy. Lots of Drive and kick and movement on initial actions.

What ur complaining about is a player problem. Several players tend towards stagnation and playing classic NBA style 1 on 1 offense. Especially as the game gets tight.

Holding the ball and playing Melo style 1 on 1 has been a trait of JTs since coming out of college. He infects the whole team with this style. Starting last year and into this year he is getting better at involving teammates in actions. Is he just naturally evolving or is he being coached to do this?

Remember last years start? The offensive explosion coming from off ball movement and lots of ball sharing resulting in tons of made 3s. Who coached that?

Exactly right, that off-ball movement was Joe's idea and implementation. He talked about watching film all summer to see how to improve the offense and did it. What is weird, eventually last year's team slowly slid back into less movement and more step-back 3's and apparently Joe did nothing to get them back on track with his offensive improvements.

Did nothing or was unable? Both offer poor results and deserve criticism but I think its ignorant, especially from a n average fan's view shed, to assume Joe just sat on his hands.

I don't know if any coach could permanently effect this PLAYER PROBLEM of ball stoppage and 3pt gunning. It seems like the addition of team players(ball movers) like White and Horford, the addition of outlet valves in Porzingis and Hauser, and the subtraction of Smart helps to alleviate some of it. But ultimately it's gonna come down to how long our engines, Tatum and JB, can stay focused and continue to shift their essences to playing the right way.

[ozgod]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

I realise this is not what you meant but I am pretty sure he wanted his guys to make all 41 3's.

Technically if they had made 3 or 4 more 3s it would have been a different ending 

The game was tied with a couple of minutes left in the game. The ending could have gone completely differently - we shouldn't have had to make 3 or 4 more 3s and we shouldn't have given up as many as we did (or been in that position in the first place).

According to Jaylen it was a busted coverage from Al that created that tiny bit of space for Haliburton to make that contested, off balance three in which he was fouled and made a 4 point play that put the Pacers permanently in front. Game of inches as they say.

Jaylen Brown’s comments about the Celtics’ miscommunication on Tyrese Haliburton’s critical 4-point play late in the Pacers’ 122-112 win Monday night could be viewed as unnecessarily shifting blame onto a teammate. But his explanation of what went wrong didn’t seem out of bounds. He was simply transparent when asked to describe the situation.

When Buddy Hield jogged over and feigned setting a screen on Al Horford, who was guarding Haliburton near the top of the key, Brown had the best view of what was transpiring and said he tried to alert Horford by yelling the prompt, “square.” That essentially meant that no screen was coming, and that Brown intended to follow Hield through the slip, leaving Horford on Haliburton. But Horford switched onto Hield, creating just enough space for Haliburton to drain the 3-pointer.

“Definitely not supposed to switch that unless you set the screen,” Brown said, “but there was no screen.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/12/05/sports/here-are-some-thoughts-celtics-their-quarterfinal-loss-pacers-in-season-tournament/

[SHAQATTACK]

Don’t wait

Do it now   

[tenn_smoothie]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?[/b]

Ummm....this is the coaching strategy. Lots of Drive and kick and movement on initial actions.

What ur complaining about is a player problem. Several players tend towards stagnation and playing classic NBA style 1 on 1 offense. Especially as the game gets tight.

Holding the ball and playing Melo style 1 on 1 has been a trait of JTs since coming out of college. He infects the whole team with this style. Starting last year and into this year he is getting better at involving teammates in actions. Is he just naturally evolving or is he being coached to do this?

Remember last years start? The offensive explosion coming from off ball movement and lots of ball sharing resulting in tons of made 3s. Who coached that?

Exactly right, that off-ball movement was Joe's idea and implementation. He talked about watching film all summer to see how to improve the offense and did it. What is weird, eventually last year's team slowly slid back into less movement and more step-back 3's and apparently Joe did nothing to get them back on track with his offensive improvements.

Did nothing or was unable? Both offer poor results and deserve criticism but I think its ignorant, especially from a n average fan's view shed, to assume Joe just sat on his hands.

I don't know if any coach could permanently effect this PLAYER PROBLEM of ball stoppage and 3pt gunning. It seems like the addition of team players(ball movers) like White and Horford, the addition of outlet valves in Porzingis and Hauser, and the subtraction of Smart helps to alleviate some of it. But ultimately it's gonna come down to how long our engines, Tatum and JB, can stay focused and continue to shift their essences to playing the right way.

Given that I played and coached the game at the college level, I would think my perspective is not as ignorant as your insult implies. Having said that, I know the pro game is more player-driven to a point, but if the players choose to ignore a coach's directions because it is too difficult for them to stay focused on playing the right way the majority of the time, then you need different players. Also, I wouldn't be so sure about Joe not sitting on his hands. His demeanor and public statements, as well as comments made by players at times, are not indicative of a strong will.

I would love to know the private thoughts of the Celtic players who understand the right way to play about Joe's coaching incompetence.

[tenn_smoothie]

Appears the Celtics fired a pretty good coach only to install Bumbling Joe.
Udoka and Houston beat Denver tonite in Denver and get above .500 with a mixed roster.
Ime was not a great offensive coach, but that could be fixed with the right assistant along with the current roster changes.

[ozgod]

Garbage and insolent coach can't think outside the box and wanted his guys to take 41 3-point attempts and only made 12 of them. Think of other offensive strategies for once.

He should have been fired after last season. He's a dud and everyone seems to know it but our ownership and administration.

The Cs are an infinitely better team playing ball movement and inside out. Why is this so ****' hard for an NBA coach to work out?[/b]

Ummm....this is the coaching strategy. Lots of Drive and kick and movement on initial actions.

What ur complaining about is a player problem. Several players tend towards stagnation and playing classic NBA style 1 on 1 offense. Especially as the game gets tight.

Holding the ball and playing Melo style 1 on 1 has been a trait of JTs since coming out of college. He infects the whole team with this style. Starting last year and into this year he is getting better at involving teammates in actions. Is he just naturally evolving or is he being coached to do this?

Remember last years start? The offensive explosion coming from off ball movement and lots of ball sharing resulting in tons of made 3s. Who coached that?

Exactly right, that off-ball movement was Joe's idea and implementation. He talked about watching film all summer to see how to improve the offense and did it. What is weird, eventually last year's team slowly slid back into less movement and more step-back 3's and apparently Joe did nothing to get them back on track with his offensive improvements.

Did nothing or was unable? Both offer poor results and deserve criticism but I think its ignorant, especially from a n average fan's view shed, to assume Joe just sat on his hands.

I don't know if any coach could permanently effect this PLAYER PROBLEM of ball stoppage and 3pt gunning. It seems like the addition of team players(ball movers) like White and Horford, the addition of outlet valves in Porzingis and Hauser, and the subtraction of Smart helps to alleviate some of it. But ultimately it's gonna come down to how long our engines, Tatum and JB, can stay focused and continue to shift their essences to playing the right way.

Given that I played and coached the game at the college level, I would think my perspective is not as ignorant as your insult implies. Having said that, I know the pro game is more player-driven to a point, but if the players choose to ignore a coach's directions because it is too difficult for them to stay focused on playing the right way the majority of the time, then you need different players. Also, I wouldn't be so sure about Joe not sitting on his hands. His demeanor and public statements, as well as comments made by players at times, are not indicative of a strong will.

I would love to know the private thoughts of the Celtic players who understand the right way to play about Joe's coaching incompetence.

Always fascinating to be a fly on the wall of these dressing rooms, Tenn...probably the best ones to ask would be the ones no longer with the team, like Smartacus, Brogdon and Timelord, because the ones that are currently there seem to be all in on Joe's philosophy. I would have to believe that if there were malcontents something would have come out in the press by now. And unhappy teams tend not to have great records, so I think they like his philosophy or at the very least are not opposed to it. Though that could be because they have the best record in the league in this early stage...the test will be once they go on a sustained losing streak and the media pressure starts to pile up. Then we'll see if there are any leaks in USS Coach Mazz 

[Neurotic Guy]

Appears the Celtics fired a pretty good coach only to install Bumbling Joe.
Udoka and Houston beat Denver tonite in Denver and get above .500 with a mixed roster.
Ime was not a great offensive coach, but that could be fixed with the right assistant along with the current roster changes.

I’m not convinced he’s as bad as you say, but I definitely align with the idea that this team has five offensive weapons in the starting lineup and are disappointingly uncreative as a unit.  They should dominate given that other teams can’t double the Jays and not leave others open.  Cs should be exploiting that on every offensive possession and instead they end up shooting semi-contested threes way too often. The threes are sometimes open due to ball movement/ finding the open guy, but too often the shots are contested and way too predictable.  In stretches where the ball isn’t falling they need a coach to help them reset - change the mentality, alter the direction/momentum. I wonder what it is that the veteran coaches they brought in are doing to influence this team?

Yet…they are 16-5 and they’ve definitely won some games that they would have lost in the second half of last season.  And, the team seems to be making home court more of an advantage than last year.  Maybe Joe doesn’t have what it takes, or maybe he’s learning, but to me it’s the reliance on the three that drove me crazy last year and is giving me agita again this year.

[Kernewek]

Appears the Celtics fired a pretty good coach only to install Bumbling Joe.
Udoka and Houston beat Denver tonite in Denver and get above .500 with a mixed roster.
Ime was not a great offensive coach, but that could be fixed with the right assistant along with the current roster changes.

I’m not convinced he’s as bad as you say, but I definitely align with the idea that this team has five offensive weapons in the starting lineup and are disappointingly uncreative as a unit.  They should dominate given that other teams can’t double the Jays and not leave others open.  Cs should be exploiting that on every offensive possession and instead they end up shooting semi-contested threes way too often. The threes are sometimes open due to ball movement/ finding the open guy, but too often the shots are contested and way too predictable.  In stretches where the ball isn’t falling they need a coach to help them reset - change the mentality, alter the direction/momentum. I wonder what it is that the veteran coaches they brought in are doing to influence this team?

Yet…they are 16-5 and they’ve definitely won some games that they would have lost in the second half of last season.  And, the team seems to be making home court more of an advantage than last year.  Maybe Joe doesn’t have what it takes, or maybe he’s learning, but to me it’s the reliance on the three that drove me crazy last year and is giving me agita again this year.

The monkey's paw of this is that Mazza was essentially the assistant who fixed the offensive issues alongside the roster changes. It just didn't stick when things got hard, which has been a staple of the Jay era, to the frustration of all of us.

Whether or not Mazz is the right head coach for the players is to be determined - in my mind, at least - or who the Jay Whisperer really is, if they're out there, but I do believe that, at a certain point, players are who they are. Our two best players are super-talented scorers who believe, as a default mode, they are the best option to score points on any given possession. Most of the time they're right, but that's not necessarily a mindset that lends itself to particularly creative play, which I think anyone who has hooped at any level from the playground on up can see.


EDIT: Wait, we won last night. Why are we posting in this thread? My barometer is all confused.

[cman88]

Appears the Celtics fired a pretty good coach only to install Bumbling Joe.
Udoka and Houston beat Denver tonite in Denver and get above .500 with a mixed roster.
Ime was not a great offensive coach, but that could be fixed with the right assistant along with the current roster changes.

I’m not convinced he’s as bad as you say, but I definitely align with the idea that this team has five offensive weapons in the starting lineup and are disappointingly uncreative as a unit.  They should dominate given that other teams can’t double the Jays and not leave others open.  Cs should be exploiting that on every offensive possession and instead they end up shooting semi-contested threes way too often. The threes are sometimes open due to ball movement/ finding the open guy, but too often the shots are contested and way too predictable.  In stretches where the ball isn’t falling they need a coach to help them reset - change the mentality, alter the direction/momentum. I wonder what it is that the veteran coaches they brought in are doing to influence this team?

Yet…they are 16-5 and they’ve definitely won some games that they would have lost in the second half of last season.  And, the team seems to be making home court more of an advantage than last year.  Maybe Joe doesn’t have what it takes, or maybe he’s learning, but to me it’s the reliance on the three that drove me crazy last year and is giving me agita again this year.

The monkey's paw of this is that Mazza was essentially the assistant who fixed the offensive issues alongside the roster changes. It just didn't stick when things got hard, which has been a staple of the Jay era, to the frustration of all of us.

Whether or not Mazz is the right head coach for the players is to be determined - in my mind, at least - or who the Jay Whisperer really is, if they're out there, but I do believe that, at a certain point, players are who they are. Our two best players are super-talented scorers who believe, as a default mode, they are the best option to score points on any given possession. Most of the time they're right, but that's not necessarily a mindset that lends itself to particularly creative play, which I think anyone who has hooped at any level from the playground on up can see.


EDIT: Wait, we won last night. Why are we posting in this thread? My barometer is all confused.

Because some fans will never be satisfied unless we win every game by 30 points and win the way They feel the Celtics should.

[Roy H.]

Why are folks criticizing Ime's offense?  Wasn't it the #1 offense from January through the end of the season?  We had an Off Rtg of over 120, better than either this year's or last year's team (despite inferior personnel).

[Kernewek]

Perhaps because looking at the couple of months where things are going well doesn’t discount the ‘your turn my turn’ game that we saw under Udoka (and Stevens, and Mazz)

The run to start last season was superior to the finish of Ime’s season, if we’re going to pick only the highlights. But fundamentally that isn’t what the discussion is about. It’s about the relapses under all the schemes and all the coaches

[cman88]

Why are folks criticizing Ime's offense?  Wasn't it the #1 offense from January through the end of the season?  We had an Off Rtg of over 120, better than either this year's or last year's team (despite inferior personnel).

What changed in the playoffs though? Offense is largely what lost us the playoffs. So I think it's fair to criticize his offense. Or question if the issue is more the players than the coaches.

We can't keep just romanticizing how good the team was for a 3 month stretch in 2022.

[Roy H.]

Why are folks criticizing Ime's offense?  Wasn't it the #1 offense from January through the end of the season?  We had an Off Rtg of over 120, better than either this year's or last year's team (despite inferior personnel).

What changed in the playoffs though? Offense is largely what lost us the playoffs. So I think it's fair to criticize his offense. Or question if the issue is more the players than the coaches.

We can't keep just romanticizing how good the team was for a 3 month stretch in 2022.

In the playoffs Timelord got hurt, and the team turtled when facing a more experienced opponent.