Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[green_bballers13]

Perhaps because looking at the couple of months where things are going well doesn’t discount the ‘your turn my turn’ game that we saw under Udoka (and Stevens, and Mazz)

The run to start last season was superior to the finish of Ime’s season, if we’re going to pick only the highlights. But fundamentally that isn’t what the discussion is about. It’s about the relapses under all the schemes and all the coaches

It takes time to break bad habits.  Ime vastly improved the offense and defense from the prior year.

Then, Joe came along, and while it took him a couple of months, the team went back to its uninspired play despite upgraded talent.

And no, our offensive rating under Joe's 1st three months was worse than the last 3 months under Ime.  Worse offense, worse defense, better personnel.

Are you suggesting that the Celtics fire Joe at 16-5? What do you recommend going forward?

We should have fired him after the season.

So you're complaining about the past, and think that they should maintain the status quo? Just trying to figure out what the critics want. I like where the Celtics are. They have the second best record in the league.

[Goldstar88]

Perhaps because looking at the couple of months where things are going well doesn’t discount the ‘your turn my turn’ game that we saw under Udoka (and Stevens, and Mazz)

The run to start last season was superior to the finish of Ime’s season, if we’re going to pick only the highlights. But fundamentally that isn’t what the discussion is about. It’s about the relapses under all the schemes and all the coaches

It takes time to break bad habits.  Ime vastly improved the offense and defense from the prior year.

Then, Joe came along, and while it took him a couple of months, the team went back to its uninspired play despite upgraded talent.

And no, our offensive rating under Joe's 1st three months was worse than the last 3 months under Ime.  Worse offense, worse defense, better personnel.

Are you suggesting that the Celtics fire Joe at 16-5? What do you recommend going forward?

There are folks on here that wanted Joe fired even if the Celtics had won the championship last year. I doubt that has changed for this season.

He gets no credit when the team wins and all the blame when they lose. 

[Roy H.]

Perhaps because looking at the couple of months where things are going well doesn’t discount the ‘your turn my turn’ game that we saw under Udoka (and Stevens, and Mazz)

The run to start last season was superior to the finish of Ime’s season, if we’re going to pick only the highlights. But fundamentally that isn’t what the discussion is about. It’s about the relapses under all the schemes and all the coaches

It takes time to break bad habits.  Ime vastly improved the offense and defense from the prior year.

Then, Joe came along, and while it took him a couple of months, the team went back to its uninspired play despite upgraded talent.

And no, our offensive rating under Joe's 1st three months was worse than the last 3 months under Ime.  Worse offense, worse defense, better personnel.

Are you suggesting that the Celtics fire Joe at 16-5? What do you recommend going forward?

We should have fired him after the season.

So you're complaining about the past, and think that they should maintain the status quo? Just trying to figure out what the critics want. I like where the Celtics are. They have the second best record in the league.

The team is talented enough to win a lot of games with a poor coach.  They've got four All-Stars, and the fifth guy is an All-Defense player.  Any average high school coach would win a lot of games with this roster.

I don't believe in Joe's system, and I don't believe in his ability to make decisions or adjustments.  I don't think he's good enough to lead the team through the playoffs.

[green_bballers13]

Perhaps because looking at the couple of months where things are going well doesn’t discount the ‘your turn my turn’ game that we saw under Udoka (and Stevens, and Mazz)

The run to start last season was superior to the finish of Ime’s season, if we’re going to pick only the highlights. But fundamentally that isn’t what the discussion is about. It’s about the relapses under all the schemes and all the coaches

It takes time to break bad habits.  Ime vastly improved the offense and defense from the prior year.

Then, Joe came along, and while it took him a couple of months, the team went back to its uninspired play despite upgraded talent.

And no, our offensive rating under Joe's 1st three months was worse than the last 3 months under Ime.  Worse offense, worse defense, better personnel.

Are you suggesting that the Celtics fire Joe at 16-5? What do you recommend going forward?

We should have fired him after the season.

So you're complaining about the past, and think that they should maintain the status quo? Just trying to figure out what the critics want. I like where the Celtics are. They have the second best record in the league.

The team is talented enough to win a lot of games with a poor coach.  They've got four All-Stars, and the fifth guy is an All-Defense player.  Any average high school coach would win a lot of games with this roster.

I don't believe in Joe's system, and I don't believe in his ability to make decisions or adjustments.  I don't think he's good enough to lead the team through the playoffs.

I disagree. I think that they have looked good this year, and think that such a young, inexperienced coach will likely improve. I think he has a better chance of holding these guys accountable than an older guy like Doc, Nurse, or Bud.

[Roy H.]

Perhaps because looking at the couple of months where things are going well doesn’t discount the ‘your turn my turn’ game that we saw under Udoka (and Stevens, and Mazz)

The run to start last season was superior to the finish of Ime’s season, if we’re going to pick only the highlights. But fundamentally that isn’t what the discussion is about. It’s about the relapses under all the schemes and all the coaches

It takes time to break bad habits.  Ime vastly improved the offense and defense from the prior year.

Then, Joe came along, and while it took him a couple of months, the team went back to its uninspired play despite upgraded talent.

And no, our offensive rating under Joe's 1st three months was worse than the last 3 months under Ime.  Worse offense, worse defense, better personnel.

Are you suggesting that the Celtics fire Joe at 16-5? What do you recommend going forward?

We should have fired him after the season.

So you're complaining about the past, and think that they should maintain the status quo? Just trying to figure out what the critics want. I like where the Celtics are. They have the second best record in the league.

The team is talented enough to win a lot of games with a poor coach.  They've got four All-Stars, and the fifth guy is an All-Defense player.  Any average high school coach would win a lot of games with this roster.

I don't believe in Joe's system, and I don't believe in his ability to make decisions or adjustments.  I don't think he's good enough to lead the team through the playoffs.

I disagree. I think that they have looked good this year, and think that such a young, inexperienced coach will likely improve. I think he has a better chance of holding these guys accountable than an older guy like Doc, Nurse, or Bud.

I don't think that it makes sense to have on the job training with a championship roster.  I also haven't really seen him hold anybody accountable over the past two years, so I'm not sure what you're seeing there. I'd feel much more confident if we had Nick Nurse.

[Vermont Green]

I have not given up on Mazzulla just yet.   I think last season was a tough situation the way that Udoka got fired (suspended) and Joe took over.  I see improvement this season so some credit goes to the coach and some to the players.  There are still problems or weaknesses also, again, some due to coaching, some due to players.

The big picture to me is 9-0 at home, 6-5 on the road.  Can't be much better at home; on the road, we are 8th best in the league, the best road record is 7-3 (CLE, MIN, OKC) so the Celtics are not that much worse than everyone else on the road, but we are also not playing to the full potential of the roster.

What worries me is that right now, our 3PT shooting on the road is 32.6%, only ORL is worse.  Our coaching scheme is shoot more 3s.  Not surprisingly, we shoot better at home than on the road.  The Lakers won last night only taking 13 3PAs.   The Celtics average 43 3PA. 

The Lakers roster allows for LeBron to take it to the hoop often and Davis to post up often.  That offense is going to work about the same home or road (+/- a few foul calls).  I don't think Mazzulla is a bad coach, to some extent our guard heavy line up forces us to take more 3s, but I don't like to see this much reliance on the 3.

[SHAQATTACK]

Ya ll better decide WHO you do like for our next coach .   I can’t see them wasting another year if the team falls on its face during playoffs early rounds

[green_bballers13]

I have not given up on Mazzulla just yet.   

I see no reason to take a pessimistic view point. I think he will improve. If you're blaming a lot of those Miami playoff losses on Joe, I think you're letting the players off easy. Most importantly, Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown.

[blink]

What worries me is that right now, our 3PT shooting on the road is 32.6%, only ORL is worse.  Our coaching scheme is shoot more 3s.  Not surprisingly, we shoot better at home than on the road.  The Lakers won last night only taking 13 3PAs.   The Celtics average 43 3PA. 

The Lakers roster allows for LeBron to take it to the hoop often and Davis to post up often.  That offense is going to work about the same home or road (+/- a few foul calls).  I don't think Mazzulla is a bad coach, to some extent our guard heavy line up forces us to take more 3s, but I don't like to see this much reliance on the 3.

I don't for the life of me understand why we can't have multiple offensive approaches that work against different teams, and used depending on how well we are hitting the 3 ball?   The key stat with the lakers 3 point shooting from last night was they only made 2 THREES!   Teams can win by attacking the rim and getting to the line depending on the opponent and on the game.

Both Tatum and Brown can get to the rim, so can Jrue and DWhite.  For the games where we aren't shooting the 3 ball well, and where there isn't some huge shot blocking big on the other team, attack the rim.  Score easy buckets, draw fouls, get the other team in foul trouble.  We just refuse to do this when we are obviously horrible that game from 3.

Attacking the rim will also open up wide open shots as well.  But attacking the rim takes energy, it takes moving without the ball, coming off multiple screens and playing unselfishly.  I think we can do all those things.  The only thing I worry about is are offense is so stagnant sometimes and we aren't moving.  Another thing that as a coach I don't understand at all.

[Kernewek]

Perhaps because looking at the couple of months where things are going well doesn’t discount the ‘your turn my turn’ game that we saw under Udoka (and Stevens, and Mazz)

The run to start last season was superior to the finish of Ime’s season, if we’re going to pick only the highlights. But fundamentally that isn’t what the discussion is about. It’s about the relapses under all the schemes and all the coaches

It takes time to break bad habits.  Ime vastly improved the offense and defense from the prior year.

Then, Joe came along, and while it took him a couple of months, the team went back to its uninspired play despite upgraded talent.

And no, our offensive rating under Joe's 1st three months was worse than the last 3 months under Ime.  Worse offense, worse defense, better personnel.

Are you suggesting that the Celtics fire Joe at 16-5? What do you recommend going forward?

We should have fired him after the season.

So you're complaining about the past, and think that they should maintain the status quo? Just trying to figure out what the critics want. I like where the Celtics are. They have the second best record in the league.

The team is talented enough to win a lot of games with a poor coach.  They've got four All-Stars, and the fifth guy is an All-Defense player.  Any average high school coach would win a lot of games with this roster.

I don't believe in Joe's system, and I don't believe in his ability to make decisions or adjustments.  I don't think he's good enough to lead the team through the playoffs.

I disagree. I think that they have looked good this year, and think that such a young, inexperienced coach will likely improve. I think he has a better chance of holding these guys accountable than an older guy like Doc, Nurse, or Bud.

I don't think that it makes sense to have on the job training with a championship roster.  I also haven't really seen him hold anybody accountable over the past two years, so I'm not sure what you're seeing there. I'd feel much more confident if we had Nick Nurse.

Do you have a good example to hand of an NBA head coach holding players to account? Obviously we can't see what goes on behind closed doors, but that's true for all coaches.

[ozgod]

Perhaps because looking at the couple of months where things are going well doesn’t discount the ‘your turn my turn’ game that we saw under Udoka (and Stevens, and Mazz)

The run to start last season was superior to the finish of Ime’s season, if we’re going to pick only the highlights. But fundamentally that isn’t what the discussion is about. It’s about the relapses under all the schemes and all the coaches

It takes time to break bad habits.  Ime vastly improved the offense and defense from the prior year.

Then, Joe came along, and while it took him a couple of months, the team went back to its uninspired play despite upgraded talent.

And no, our offensive rating under Joe's 1st three months was worse than the last 3 months under Ime.  Worse offense, worse defense, better personnel.

Are you suggesting that the Celtics fire Joe at 16-5? What do you recommend going forward?

We should have fired him after the season.

So you're complaining about the past, and think that they should maintain the status quo? Just trying to figure out what the critics want. I like where the Celtics are. They have the second best record in the league.

The team is talented enough to win a lot of games with a poor coach.  They've got four All-Stars, and the fifth guy is an All-Defense player.  Any average high school coach would win a lot of games with this roster.

I don't believe in Joe's system, and I don't believe in his ability to make decisions or adjustments.  I don't think he's good enough to lead the team through the playoffs.

I disagree. I think that they have looked good this year, and think that such a young, inexperienced coach will likely improve. I think he has a better chance of holding these guys accountable than an older guy like Doc, Nurse, or Bud.

I don't think that it makes sense to have on the job training with a championship roster.  I also haven't really seen him hold anybody accountable over the past two years, so I'm not sure what you're seeing there. I'd feel much more confident if we had Nick Nurse.

Do you have a good example to hand of an NBA head coach holding players to account? Obviously we can't see what goes on behind closed doors, but that's true for all coaches.

I don't know of any offhand, but I suppose for a coach to "hold someone to account", that might include:

- sitting them when they are not injured as punishment for not obeying his instructions;
- visibly yelling at them and being mad at them on the sideline after they did something wrong;
- benching them after they cause a turnover or take an ill-advised 3
- anything that Bobby Knight used to do

These are just a few of the things that I think might indicate that a player is being held to account. Of course, by the nature of the actions, they tend to be divisive, and it's probably why coaches like to impose their discipline behind closed doors, where inquisitive eyes like ours can't see 

[Goldstar88]

If only we had Pop as coach. Oh, wait… The Spurs are 3-18.   

[Roy H.]

If only we had Pop as coach. Oh, wait… The Spurs are 3-18.   

You've proven once again, wins and losses are primarily a product of talent.  That's why great coaches can have poor records, and terrible coaches can have good records.

That's why Luke Walton had great success with the Warriors when he filled in for Kerr, despite being a poor coach.  Talent can sometimes win in spite of bad coaching.

The problem for the Celtics is that there talent, while elite, isn't good enough to win a title on autopilot, or in spite of a bad system.

[Donoghus]

If they flame out before the Finals again, I have to imagine he's gone.  It really is championship or bust this year, IMO. 

Losing in the East playoffs, not matter how well a regular season they had, would be a failure and I would imagine the front office would have had enough of the "learning on the fly" Mazzulla.

[Kernewek]

You've proven once again, wins and losses are primarily a product of talent.  That's why great coaches can have poor records, and terrible coaches can have good records.

That's why Luke Walton had great success with the Warriors when he filled in for Kerr, despite being a poor coach.  Talent can sometimes win in spite of bad coaching.

The problem for the Celtics is that there talent, while elite, isn't good enough to win a title on autopilot, or in spite of a bad system.

Walton will most likely be the go-to example of how little the head coach can matter, that's true - going 39–4 with a team that wound up 73-9 to end the season means there's a crazy amount of synergy between the coaching staff - who we expect to provide the philosophy behind the game - and the talent on the floor. There's probably a similarity you can draw with Walton taking over for Kerr that season and the last six months of Ime's tenure into Mazz's first season, but I'm not sure how much water that actually holds.

If they flame out before the Finals again, I have to imagine he's gone.  It really is championship or bust this year, IMO. 

Losing in the East playoffs, not matter how well a regular season they had, would be a failure and I would imagine the front office would have had enough of the "learning on the fly" Mazzulla.

I think I'd agree, unless it's something like a Leonard bounce in game 7 of the ECF. I do think the regular season has to be up to par with what we saw over the last two seasons, though. He's clearly a Stevens guy but I can't help but feel, now that Grant and Marcus are gone, that Mazz is on thin ice.