JT > PP

[pokeKingCurtis]

Tatum was on much better teams earlier in his career. PP got into a lot of bad habits playing with Walker that were ironed out when KG got here. Tatum is on a better career path but I think the talent is fairly equal.

Tatum is bigger than Pierce, Pierce is more skilled, but Tatum has a better ceiling

[Roy H.]

Another aspect of the Captain's game that we haven't necessarily seen from Tatum:  the sheer toughness and leadership. 

Pierce was always the man in Boston.  He could be immature at times, but he also could be a vocal leader.  He was also tough as nails.  The stabbing, the playing after losing teeth.

Have we seen anything like that from Tatum?  I mean, a lack of moments where he showed toughness isn't necessarily his fault.  He's been durable and consistent.  But, it's something added for Pierce, where he galvanized teams around him.  Even his "wheelchair moment" at the time was inspirational, even if that was allegedly due to GI issues, haha.

On our current team, I think it's Marcus that's the leader, with JB stepping up at times.  Tatum is more of a "lead by example" guy.  Does that matter?

[showtime]

 JT is much better than Pierce ever was! Tatum is already an A list superstar! If he stays healthy and in Boston, he'll be on a level with Russell and Bird!!

[Moranis]

Another aspect of the Captain's game that we haven't necessarily seen from Tatum:  the sheer toughness and leadership. 

Pierce was always the man in Boston.  He could be immature at times, but he also could be a vocal leader.  He was also tough as nails.  The stabbing, the playing after losing teeth.

Have we seen anything like that from Tatum?  I mean, a lack of moments where he showed toughness isn't necessarily his fault.  He's been durable and consistent.  But, it's something added for Pierce, where he galvanized teams around him.  Even his "wheelchair moment" at the time was inspirational, even if that was allegedly due to GI issues, haha.

On our current team, I think it's Marcus that's the leader, with JB stepping up at times.  Tatum is more of a "lead by example" guy.  Does that matter?

Walker was always the leader of the team when they were together and then it was KG.  I just don't see that comparison.

[Big333223]

Another aspect of the Captain's game that we haven't necessarily seen from Tatum:  the sheer toughness and leadership. 

Pierce was always the man in Boston.  He could be immature at times, but he also could be a vocal leader.  He was also tough as nails.  The stabbing, the playing after losing teeth.

Have we seen anything like that from Tatum?  I mean, a lack of moments where he showed toughness isn't necessarily his fault.  He's been durable and consistent.  But, it's something added for Pierce, where he galvanized teams around him.  Even his "wheelchair moment" at the time was inspirational, even if that was allegedly due to GI issues, haha.

On our current team, I think it's Marcus that's the leader, with JB stepping up at times.  Tatum is more of a "lead by example" guy.  Does that matter?

Walker was always the leader of the team when they were together and then it was KG.  I just don't see that comparison.

Agree about Walker. Disagree about Garnett. Garnett brought a ton of energy but was too much of a live-wire to be a real leader. Pierce was the steadying presence that kept people focused. I definitely remember him being the leader during the Garnett years.

But I do think you're right about Walker being the leader in the early years. Pierce had to grow into being a leader. I think we're seeing Tatum do the same. He's still learning and I think in a few years he'll be the leader of the team.

He's on the path to be better than Pierce. NBA 1st team is something Pierce never did but his personal peak never lined up with having good teammates. Tatum's last 2 seasons are certainly on par with Pierce's best, though.

[Roy H.]

Another aspect of the Captain's game that we haven't necessarily seen from Tatum:  the sheer toughness and leadership. 

Pierce was always the man in Boston.  He could be immature at times, but he also could be a vocal leader.  He was also tough as nails.  The stabbing, the playing after losing teeth.

Have we seen anything like that from Tatum?  I mean, a lack of moments where he showed toughness isn't necessarily his fault.  He's been durable and consistent.  But, it's something added for Pierce, where he galvanized teams around him.  Even his "wheelchair moment" at the time was inspirational, even if that was allegedly due to GI issues, haha.

On our current team, I think it's Marcus that's the leader, with JB stepping up at times.  Tatum is more of a "lead by example" guy.  Does that matter?

Walker was always the leader of the team when they were together and then it was KG.  I just don't see that comparison.

Oh?  The guy who is nicknamed "the Captain" (co-captain since 2000, solo captain since 2003) wasn't a leader on the team?

And haven't you commented multiple times on how KG wasn't really a leader, or was a poor leader?

KG was always a bully and was always about himself.  He only picked on weaker younger players.  He never went after guys like Shaq.  Just a pure classic bully under any definition of the word.  And I do believe that is a large reason why his Wolves teams always flamed out.  It was only when two guys came in that didn't put up KG's crap that the Wolves had a successful season and they both basically bolted the minute they had a chance.  KG was a great player, but he was a terrible teammate.  That held true in Boston as well, but Pierce and Allen didn't put up with his crap either and the 3 of them collectively were just better than everyone else.  I actually think KG is pretty similar to Michael Jordan personality wise, KG just wasn't as good as Jordan so he didn't win like him.

[Vermont Green]

Another aspect of the Captain's game that we haven't necessarily seen from Tatum:  the sheer toughness and leadership. 

Pierce was always the man in Boston.  He could be immature at times, but he also could be a vocal leader.  He was also tough as nails.  The stabbing, the playing after losing teeth.

Have we seen anything like that from Tatum?  I mean, a lack of moments where he showed toughness isn't necessarily his fault.  He's been durable and consistent.  But, it's something added for Pierce, where he galvanized teams around him.  Even his "wheelchair moment" at the time was inspirational, even if that was allegedly due to GI issues, haha.

On our current team, I think it's Marcus that's the leader, with JB stepping up at times.  Tatum is more of a "lead by example" guy.  Does that matter?

Walker was always the leader of the team when they were together and then it was KG.  I just don't see that comparison.

Oh?  The guy who is nicknamed "the Captain" (since 2003) wasn't a leader on the team?

Yeah, there was a short period of time where there was this question, is it Pierce's team or is it Walker's team but it became clear relatively quickly that Pierce was the leader of the team.  Garnett's arrival changed the leadership dynamic but Garnett was very adroit to not replace Pierce as the leader, rather just add to it.

As to Tatum, I loved how he conducted himself in game 1.  Smart brings some level of leadership to the team, an important ingredient, but Tatum is the only one that can really lead the team.  He is still evolving in that role (he just turned 24 for heaven's sake) but I felt he showed a lot in game 1.  He handled a very big moment effortlessly.  He had the perfect mix of intensity and poise. 

The team is following Tatum, following his lead.  Smart can say pass the ball more and the team will listen to some degree.  Or Horford can put his arm around someone and that will help.  But when Jayson Tatum actually starts passing the ball more on the court, then the whole team follows organically.  When Tatum stays poised in a huge playoff game, the whole team picks up on this.

Maybe that is part of the key to Tatum's leadership success.  He can be the team leader and be effective while not taking up all the space.  He leaves room for others to provide leadership too (Smart, Horford, etc.).  Nothing wrong with that.

[Moranis]

Another aspect of the Captain's game that we haven't necessarily seen from Tatum:  the sheer toughness and leadership. 

Pierce was always the man in Boston.  He could be immature at times, but he also could be a vocal leader.  He was also tough as nails.  The stabbing, the playing after losing teeth.

Have we seen anything like that from Tatum?  I mean, a lack of moments where he showed toughness isn't necessarily his fault.  He's been durable and consistent.  But, it's something added for Pierce, where he galvanized teams around him.  Even his "wheelchair moment" at the time was inspirational, even if that was allegedly due to GI issues, haha.

On our current team, I think it's Marcus that's the leader, with JB stepping up at times.  Tatum is more of a "lead by example" guy.  Does that matter?

Walker was always the leader of the team when they were together and then it was KG.  I just don't see that comparison.

Oh?  The guy who is nicknamed "the Captain" (co-captain since 2000, solo captain since 2003) wasn't a leader on the team?

And haven't you commented multiple times on how KG wasn't really a leader, or was a poor leader?

KG was always a bully and was always about himself.  He only picked on weaker younger players.  He never went after guys like Shaq.  Just a pure classic bully under any definition of the word.  And I do believe that is a large reason why his Wolves teams always flamed out.  It was only when two guys came in that didn't put up KG's crap that the Wolves had a successful season and they both basically bolted the minute they had a chance.  KG was a great player, but he was a terrible teammate.  That held true in Boston as well, but Pierce and Allen didn't put up with his crap either and the 3 of them collectively were just better than everyone else.  I actually think KG is pretty similar to Michael Jordan personality wise, KG just wasn't as good as Jordan so he didn't win like him.

KG was still the leader of the team.  He set the tone.  As has been argued on here by everyone, KG changed the culture.

Walker was traded in the 2003 summer.  He wasn't on the team when Pierce was the "captain" and those teams weren't any good winning 36, 45, 33, and 24 games.  Walker was the heart and soul of the team (he was also an official captain in 97-98, 98-99, 99-00, and co-captains with PP from 00-03).  He set the tone, in much the same way Smart does on the current roster.  Pierce was better than Walker, but he wasn't the guy that set the tone, except for the 4 year period between Toine and KG and the tone he set was one of mostly failure.  Pierce has always been glorified and elevated on this board more than he should have been.  1 2nd Team and 3 3rd Team appearance in his entire career.  1 top 10 MVP finish. 

Edit: Pierce was a good player, and was for a long time.  A HOFer, but he wasn't an elite player or talent.  He had 1 top 10 season in his entire career and rarely was a top 15 player.  Tatum this past year had a better individual season than any season in Pierce's career and frankly it isn't all that close.  Tatum is just flat out better than Pierce.

Edit x2: Also, I never said Pierce wasn't a leader, I said he wasn't THE leader.  Much the same way Smart is THE leader, but Tatum is absolutely A leader of the team.  I just found the puffing up up Pierce with the denigration of Tatum to be a bridge too far. 

[ETNCeltics]

I love PP, but to me, there's no comparison to be made. Tatum is better in almost every facet of the game.

[ETNCeltics]

I’m in the Tatum > Pierce camp. But one thing I’ll say is that Pierce had that quality where, when the stakes were high and we needed a bucket, you just felt like Pierce was gonna get it. Tatum isn’t quite to that point but I think he will be. Game 1 certainly helped his case.

Yep was gonna say. JT needs to close more games. But plenty of time for him to do that. He's been closing more this calendar year.

PP laid an awful lot of playoff eggs from 2009-2012 or we'd be working on banner 19 instead of 18. His reputation as a closer is a bit overblown.

[Big333223]

I love PP, but to me, there's no comparison to be made. Tatum is better in almost every facet of the game.

The thing about Pierce was that he was a better player than a lot of guys who were more talented than him.

Vince Carter was much more talented than Pierce. More athletic and more coordinated. But Pierce was the better player because he knew how to maximize the things he could do and had that never-say-die attitude. His greatness wasn't generated from his talent but from his relentlessness.

Tatum is definitely a more talented player than Pierce was and he's on the path to being better but he's still learning things and figuring out consistency over the course of a season. Which is right where he should be at this age.

[liam]

JT is much better than Pierce ever was! Tatum is already an A list superstar! If he stays healthy and in Boston, he'll be on a level with Russell and Bird!!

Hope so...

[Roy H.]

I’m in the Tatum > Pierce camp. But one thing I’ll say is that Pierce had that quality where, when the stakes were high and we needed a bucket, you just felt like Pierce was gonna get it. Tatum isn’t quite to that point but I think he will be. Game 1 certainly helped his case.

Yep was gonna say. JT needs to close more games. But plenty of time for him to do that. He's been closing more this calendar year.

PP laid an awful lot of playoff eggs from 2009-2012 or we'd be working on banner 19 instead of 18. His reputation as a closer is a bit overblown.

Which title did we miss out on due to Pierce?

[gouki88]

I’m in the Tatum > Pierce camp. But one thing I’ll say is that Pierce had that quality where, when the stakes were high and we needed a bucket, you just felt like Pierce was gonna get it. Tatum isn’t quite to that point but I think he will be. Game 1 certainly helped his case.

Yep was gonna say. JT needs to close more games. But plenty of time for him to do that. He's been closing more this calendar year.

PP laid an awful lot of playoff eggs from 2009-2012 or we'd be working on banner 19 instead of 18. His reputation as a closer is a bit overblown.

Which title did we miss out on due to Pierce?

Him and Ray Allen were both absolutely awful in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals. Combined for 8-29 from the field.

But the refs had a big say in that one, so it's hard to blame those guys

[Moranis]

I’m in the Tatum > Pierce camp. But one thing I’ll say is that Pierce had that quality where, when the stakes were high and we needed a bucket, you just felt like Pierce was gonna get it. Tatum isn’t quite to that point but I think he will be. Game 1 certainly helped his case.

Yep was gonna say. JT needs to close more games. But plenty of time for him to do that. He's been closing more this calendar year.

PP laid an awful lot of playoff eggs from 2009-2012 or we'd be working on banner 19 instead of 18. His reputation as a closer is a bit overblown.

Which title did we miss out on due to Pierce?

Him and Ray Allen were both absolutely awful in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals. Combined for 8-29 from the field.

But the refs had a big say in that one, so it's hard to blame those guys

2009 ECS, game 7.  Pierce was 4 of 13 and 1 of 5 from 3. 16 points, but just 2 rebounds, 3 assists and was -21.  He was better in game 6 (also an Orlando win) but was far from good at 6 of 14 (0-3) for 17 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists and was -10 in the 8 point loss.  I have no idea if they would have beaten Cleveland in the ECF or LA in the Finals, but Pierce came up very small after Boston built a 3-2 lead against Orlando.

As you mentioned, the next year they were up 3-2 on the Lakers before getting blitzed off the court scoring just 67 points in game 6 and then losing game 7 by 4.  In game 6, Pierce was -26, the next closest C's were at -18.  He scored just 13 points and had 5 turnovers with just 4 rebounds and 2 assists.  He was more active in game 7, but was just 5 of 15 overall but was just 1 of 4 in the 3rd quarter and 1 of 5 in the 4th quarter.  Boston had a 9 point lead at the end of the 1st quarter and then was outscored by 3, 2, and 8 in the next 3.

In 2012, Boston took the mostly Boshless Heat to 7 games in the ECF.  Pierce for the series shot 34.4% from the field and was an awful 26.3% from 3.  Poor rebounding and passing.  Once Bosh came back, it would have been difficult for Boston to win, but certainly not with Pierce being unable to hit the broad side of a barn. 

Even in the pre-KG era, Pierce had quite a few stinkers.  In the close-out game against the Nets in the ECF in 02, Pierce was 5 of 16 (2 of 7) for just 14 points adding a horrid 4 turnovers and 5 fouls with 7 boards and 4 assists.  Boston had a 10 point halftime lead, Pierce was 2 of 7 for just 7 points in the 2nd half.  And he wasn't much better in game 5 overall, but in a game that was a 3 point Nets lead entering the 4th quarter, Pierce was 0-1 for 0 points and was -17 in the quarter (8.5 minutes) before being pulled when the game was out of reach. 

Pierce had some epic games, like the game 7 battle with Lebron in 08 (Pierce had 41 to Lebron's 45 in the close 5 point Boston win), and I do think games like that cloud reality on the type of player Pierce actually was.