JT > PP

[staticcc]

Payton Pritchard? Yes I agree.

[gouki88]

Payton Pritchard? Yes I agree.

Not by much!

[celticsclay]

Another aspect of the Captain's game that we haven't necessarily seen from Tatum:  the sheer toughness and leadership. 

Pierce was always the man in Boston.  He could be immature at times, but he also could be a vocal leader.  He was also tough as nails.  The stabbing, the playing after losing teeth.

Have we seen anything like that from Tatum?  I mean, a lack of moments where he showed toughness isn't necessarily his fault.  He's been durable and consistent.  But, it's something added for Pierce, where he galvanized teams around him.  Even his "wheelchair moment" at the time was inspirational, even if that was allegedly due to GI issues, haha.

On our current team, I think it's Marcus that's the leader, with JB stepping up at times.  Tatum is more of a "lead by example" guy.  Does that matter?

Walker was always the leader of the team when they were together and then it was KG.  I just don't see that comparison.

Oh?  The guy who is nicknamed "the Captain" (co-captain since 2000, solo captain since 2003) wasn't a leader on the team?

And haven't you commented multiple times on how KG wasn't really a leader, or was a poor leader?

KG was always a bully and was always about himself.  He only picked on weaker younger players.  He never went after guys like Shaq.  Just a pure classic bully under any definition of the word.  And I do believe that is a large reason why his Wolves teams always flamed out.  It was only when two guys came in that didn't put up KG's crap that the Wolves had a successful season and they both basically bolted the minute they had a chance.  KG was a great player, but he was a terrible teammate.  That held true in Boston as well, but Pierce and Allen didn't put up with his crap either and the 3 of them collectively were just better than everyone else.  I actually think KG is pretty similar to Michael Jordan personality wise, KG just wasn't as good as Jordan so he didn't win like him.

Oh wow. How did you find the receipt here? I haven’t been able to find posts since we lost the search feature. Definitely some prime examples of flip flopping on the board.

[Roy H.]

Another aspect of the Captain's game that we haven't necessarily seen from Tatum:  the sheer toughness and leadership. 

Pierce was always the man in Boston.  He could be immature at times, but he also could be a vocal leader.  He was also tough as nails.  The stabbing, the playing after losing teeth.

Have we seen anything like that from Tatum?  I mean, a lack of moments where he showed toughness isn't necessarily his fault.  He's been durable and consistent.  But, it's something added for Pierce, where he galvanized teams around him.  Even his "wheelchair moment" at the time was inspirational, even if that was allegedly due to GI issues, haha.

On our current team, I think it's Marcus that's the leader, with JB stepping up at times.  Tatum is more of a "lead by example" guy.  Does that matter?

Walker was always the leader of the team when they were together and then it was KG.  I just don't see that comparison.

Oh?  The guy who is nicknamed "the Captain" (co-captain since 2000, solo captain since 2003) wasn't a leader on the team?

And haven't you commented multiple times on how KG wasn't really a leader, or was a poor leader?

KG was always a bully and was always about himself.  He only picked on weaker younger players.  He never went after guys like Shaq.  Just a pure classic bully under any definition of the word.  And I do believe that is a large reason why his Wolves teams always flamed out.  It was only when two guys came in that didn't put up KG's crap that the Wolves had a successful season and they both basically bolted the minute they had a chance.  KG was a great player, but he was a terrible teammate.  That held true in Boston as well, but Pierce and Allen didn't put up with his crap either and the 3 of them collectively were just better than everyone else.  I actually think KG is pretty similar to Michael Jordan personality wise, KG just wasn't as good as Jordan so he didn't win like him.

Oh wow. How did you find the receipt here? I haven’t been able to find posts since we lost the search feature. Definitely some prime examples of flip flopping on the board.

The search function isn't gone, it's just not easily accessible anymore:

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?action=search

[nickagneta]

If you are measuring Tatum against Pierce's entire career, yes Pierce is better. Tatum still has a lot to do to be "better" than the entiretyof Paul Pierce over a career.

That said, at a similar age, Tatum is much better. Tatum at 23 has been the best player on 2, possibly three, ECF teams. He has never missed the playoffs. He will have made 2 All-NBA teams and 3 All-Star teams, being a starter in one. He is at his age 23 year, a top 10, maybe top 8 player in the league.

At his age 23 year Pierce had yet to play in the playoffs, so never was a best player on any ECF teams. He had yet to be an All-Star or All-NBA player. And he was nowhere near a top 10 player in the league.

If Tatum continues his trajectory and adds titles, plural titles(I think he will), he will be a top 3 Celtic all-time far surpassing Pierce's career and showing he was better than Pierce from extremely early on in their careers.

[angryguy77]

Are we comparing wheelchair PP or upright PP? Need clarification before giving my .02.

[Moranis]

If you are measuring Tatum against Pierce's entire career, yes Pierce is better. Tatum still has a lot to do to be "better" than the entiretyof Paul Pierce over a career.

That said, at a similar age, Tatum is much better. Tatum at 23 has been the best player on 2, possibly three, ECF teams. He has never missed the playoffs. He will have made 2 All-NBA teams and 3 All-Star teams, being a starter in one. He is at his age 23 year, a top 10, maybe top 8 player in the league.

At his age 23 year Pierce had yet to play in the playoffs, so never was a best player on any ECF teams. He had yet to be an All-Star or All-NBA player. And he was nowhere near a top 10 player in the league.

If Tatum continues his trajectory and adds titles, plural titles(I think he will), he will be a top 3 Celtic all-time far surpassing Pierce's career and showing he was better than Pierce from extremely early on in their careers.

Career sure, but are you arguing that Pierce in his prime was better than Tatum is right now?  Because that was the question posed in the opening post of this thread.

[Roy H.]

If you are measuring Tatum against Pierce's entire career, yes Pierce is better. Tatum still has a lot to do to be "better" than the entiretyof Paul Pierce over a career.

That said, at a similar age, Tatum is much better. Tatum at 23 has been the best player on 2, possibly three, ECF teams. He has never missed the playoffs. He will have made 2 All-NBA teams and 3 All-Star teams, being a starter in one. He is at his age 23 year, a top 10, maybe top 8 player in the league.

At his age 23 year Pierce had yet to play in the playoffs, so never was a best player on any ECF teams. He had yet to be an All-Star or All-NBA player. And he was nowhere near a top 10 player in the league.

If Tatum continues his trajectory and adds titles, plural titles(I think he will), he will be a top 3 Celtic all-time far surpassing Pierce's career and showing he was better than Pierce from extremely early on in their careers.

A few quibbles:  Tatum was only the best player on one ECF team, in the bubble.  In 2018, after Kyrie's injury, there wasn't really a "best player"; Horford was best in the first round, Tatum in the second, and JB in the Conference Finals.

Tatum's 24 now.  At age 24, Pierce also took his team to the ECF.  He was a one-time all-star at age 24, but should have made a second team (25 / 6 / 3 in 2001).  Pierce was All-NBA in 2003.  If you compare Pierce in 2002 to Tatum this year, the stats are very similar, with advanced stats favoring Pierce quite a bit.

Pierce's peak was basically at 24, and he maintained that for several years.  Hopefully Tatum has more room to grow.

[Moranis]

If you are measuring Tatum against Pierce's entire career, yes Pierce is better. Tatum still has a lot to do to be "better" than the entiretyof Paul Pierce over a career.

That said, at a similar age, Tatum is much better. Tatum at 23 has been the best player on 2, possibly three, ECF teams. He has never missed the playoffs. He will have made 2 All-NBA teams and 3 All-Star teams, being a starter in one. He is at his age 23 year, a top 10, maybe top 8 player in the league.

At his age 23 year Pierce had yet to play in the playoffs, so never was a best player on any ECF teams. He had yet to be an All-Star or All-NBA player. And he was nowhere near a top 10 player in the league.

If Tatum continues his trajectory and adds titles, plural titles(I think he will), he will be a top 3 Celtic all-time far surpassing Pierce's career and showing he was better than Pierce from extremely early on in their careers.

A few quibbles:  Tatum was only the best player on one ECF team, in the bubble.  In 2018, after Kyrie's injury, there wasn't really a "best player"; Horford was best in the first round, Tatum in the second, and JB in the Conference Finals.

Tatum's 24 now.  At age 24, Pierce also took his team to the ECF.  He was a one-time all-star at age 24, but should have made a second team (25 / 6 / 3 in 2001).  Pierce was All-NBA in 2003.  If you compare Pierce in 2002 to Tatum this year, the stats are very similar, with advanced stats favoring Pierce quite a bit.

Pierce's peak was basically at 24, and he maintained that for several years.  Hopefully Tatum has more room to grow.

Tatum was the best player in 2018 or at least the most important. 

Depends on the advanced stats you look at.  This year vs. Pierce in 2002, Tatum has a better TRB%, AST%, and TOV% with a better TS%.  Tatum's on/off differential per 100 possession is also better along with his regular old +- per 100 possessions.  Tatum also led the league in DWS and is more than likely going to be 1st Team All NBA.  This year the team won more games than 2002. 

[nickagneta]

If you are measuring Tatum against Pierce's entire career, yes Pierce is better. Tatum still has a lot to do to be "better" than the entiretyof Paul Pierce over a career.

That said, at a similar age, Tatum is much better. Tatum at 23 has been the best player on 2, possibly three, ECF teams. He has never missed the playoffs. He will have made 2 All-NBA teams and 3 All-Star teams, being a starter in one. He is at his age 23 year, a top 10, maybe top 8 player in the league.

At his age 23 year Pierce had yet to play in the playoffs, so never was a best player on any ECF teams. He had yet to be an All-Star or All-NBA player. And he was nowhere near a top 10 player in the league.

If Tatum continues his trajectory and adds titles, plural titles(I think he will), he will be a top 3 Celtic all-time far surpassing Pierce's career and showing he was better than Pierce from extremely early on in their careers.

A few quibbles:  Tatum was only the best player on one ECF team, in the bubble.  In 2018, after Kyrie's injury, there wasn't really a "best player"; Horford was best in the first round, Tatum in the second, and JB in the Conference Finals.

Tatum's 24 now.  At age 24, Pierce also took his team to the ECF.  He was a one-time all-star at age 24, but should have made a second team (25 / 6 / 3 in 2001).  Pierce was All-NBA in 2003.  If you compare Pierce in 2002 to Tatum this year, the stats are very similar, with advanced stats favoring Pierce quite a bit.

Pierce's peak was basically at 24, and he maintained that for several years.  Hopefully Tatum has more room to grow.

Tatum was 23 for 64 games of this season. Because of the 7 month span between birthdays you have to go by "age season" not strictly how old a player is upon entering the playoffs, so I disagree with your comments there. That's why I stated age 23 year later in my post when comparing them.

[Roy H.]

If you are measuring Tatum against Pierce's entire career, yes Pierce is better. Tatum still has a lot to do to be "better" than the entiretyof Paul Pierce over a career.

That said, at a similar age, Tatum is much better. Tatum at 23 has been the best player on 2, possibly three, ECF teams. He has never missed the playoffs. He will have made 2 All-NBA teams and 3 All-Star teams, being a starter in one. He is at his age 23 year, a top 10, maybe top 8 player in the league.

At his age 23 year Pierce had yet to play in the playoffs, so never was a best player on any ECF teams. He had yet to be an All-Star or All-NBA player. And he was nowhere near a top 10 player in the league.

If Tatum continues his trajectory and adds titles, plural titles(I think he will), he will be a top 3 Celtic all-time far surpassing Pierce's career and showing he was better than Pierce from extremely early on in their careers.

A few quibbles:  Tatum was only the best player on one ECF team, in the bubble.  In 2018, after Kyrie's injury, there wasn't really a "best player"; Horford was best in the first round, Tatum in the second, and JB in the Conference Finals.

Tatum's 24 now.  At age 24, Pierce also took his team to the ECF.  He was a one-time all-star at age 24, but should have made a second team (25 / 6 / 3 in 2001).  Pierce was All-NBA in 2003.  If you compare Pierce in 2002 to Tatum this year, the stats are very similar, with advanced stats favoring Pierce quite a bit.

Pierce's peak was basically at 24, and he maintained that for several years.  Hopefully Tatum has more room to grow.

Tatum was 23 for 64 games of this season. Because of the 7 month span between birthdays you have to go by "age season" not strictly how old a player is upon entering the playoffs, so I disagree with your comments there. That's why I stated age 23 year later in my post when comparing them.

Eh.  Pierce was 24 years, 190 days old when the 2002 playoffs started.  Tatum was 24 years, 45 days old when this season's playoffs started.  So, 145 days difference.  Less than five months difference.  I don't see that as a major discrepancy. 

[Big333223]

Last night was interesting for this discussion.

On the one hand, Tatum struggled with his offense in a way Pierce rarely did. Not because he wasn't making shots but because there were stretches in the first half where Tatum looked like he forgot how to play basketball. How many times did he dribble into a crowd and lose the ball in the first half? Pierce would get methodical in these situations. He would've gotten himself to the line or gotten into his step-back midrange game. The shots might not have fallen (Pierce certainly had cold stretches) but he would've known how to react. Tatum isn't there yet.

On the other hand...

Tatum finished with 10 assists last night. That level of creation for others is something Pierce didn't really learn until he was past his prime as a scorer. That Tatum already has that is an argument in Tatum's favor.

[sgrogan]

I think its close and we are watching Tatum pass Pierce in real time.

Thru 4 seasons Pierce had 1 All-stars, 1 All-NBA (3rd Team) and MVP votes in 2 seasons (highest 11th)
Thru 4 seasons Tatum had 2 All-stars, 1 All NBA (3rd Team) and MVP votes in 1 season (12th)

In year 5 Pierce was All-Star, All-NBA (3rd) Team, MVP votes (11th)
Tatum is All-Star and expected to do better than 3rd team ALL-NBA and better than 11th in MVP Voting.

Tatum seems to be more efficient, but if you look at the league adjusted numbers it's not as clear. Pierce performed better relative to his pears in stats like TS%, even though the raw number is lower than Tatum's.

Tatum has certainly had more playoff success to this point, but he has had a far superior cast. If Brown = Antione, what about Kyrie, Horford, Hayward, even Kemba?

I think Pierce reached his peak around year 5 and maintained it for about a decade.
I don't think Tatum has reached his peak yet, and if he does in a year or two he should be able to maintain that high peak for a similar amount of time.

So I's say Tatum = PP
If it isn't Tatum > PP as soon as this years playoffs I'll be disappointed.

[Roy H.]

On the other hand...

Tatum finished with 10 assists last night. That level of creation for others is something Pierce didn't really learn until he was past his prime as a scorer. That Tatum already has that is an argument in Tatum's favor.

You think?  Pierce averaged 6.7 assists in the 2003 playoffs, for instance.  He didn't hit double digits a lot in the playoffs, but I think he was a pretty good creator even early on. 

[gouki88]

Are we comparing wheelchair PP or upright PP? Need clarification before giving my .02.