Would Tatum Make The All-Time Celtics Starting Five?

[LilRip]

I love the Truth but Tatum is already a better player than Pierce and already has a better career than Pierce. I do not think Tatum needs to win MVP to edge out the Truth, who only got All-NBA 2nd team once in his career.

[Csfan1984]

I love the Truth but Tatum is already a better player than Pierce and already has a better career than Pierce. I do not think Tatum needs to win MVP to edge out the Truth, who only got All-NBA 2nd team once in his career.

There were a lot better SG/SFs during Pierce's run than Tatum. We can understand Pierce not making 1st or 2nd All NBA a bunch of years vs who he was up against for the rewards. That's also not factoring the popularity of some players and some guys were making it on defense alone during his run. So quality of players was up, defense alone could get you on all NBA and there were guys getting popularity votes. Tatum ain't dealing with that to the level of Pierce.

[LilRip]

I love the Truth but Tatum is already a better player than Pierce and already has a better career than Pierce. I do not think Tatum needs to win MVP to edge out the Truth, who only got All-NBA 2nd team once in his career.

There were a lot better SG/SFs during Pierce's run than Tatum. We can understand Pierce not making 1st or 2nd All NBA a bunch of years vs who he was up against for the rewards. That's also not factoring the popularity of some players and some guys were making it on defense alone during his run. So quality of players was up, defense alone could get you on all NBA and there were guys getting popularity votes. Tatum ain't dealing with that to the level of Pierce.

Hard disagree. The politics, popularity, reputation, and all that is still alive and well. Probably even worse because of the rise of social media. The reason Tatum is not dealing with that the way Pierce was is because Tatum is better than his peers. Tatum is the one pushing the other players out of 1st team.

And I will repeat: requiring Tatum to win MVP just so he can surpass Pierce is crazy and not a reasonable benchmark.

[wiley]

I know career wise he's not in the discussion, but I think Rondo over a two year period had some of the best post season numbers in
Celtic playoff history.  Am I wrong that he set some records?

In other words, if we could have that Rondo over a longer period I'd put him at point guard. 

[Who]

I know career wise he's not in the discussion, but I think Rondo over a two year period had some of the best post season numbers in
Celtic playoff history.  Am I wrong that he set some records?

In other words, if we could have that Rondo over a longer period I'd put him at point guard.

Rondo had a 4 year postseason run from 2008-09 to 2011-12. 66 playoffs games. 16pts 10 dimes 7 boards 2 steals a night over 4yr period.

* 2009 - great series against CHI in first round and then very good against ORL
* 2010 - outplayed LeBron in ECSF, made a joke of ORL's PGs in ECF, BOS loses in 7 in the Finals. Rondo plays well all 4 series.
* 2011 - tears apart NYK in first round. MIA in the 2nd round. That was the series where Wade takes out Rondo. Plays with one arm. Valiant effort but he was largely ineffective albeit due to injury.
* 2012 - dominant against ATL, PHI and then superb against MIA in the ECF. 21ppg 11apg 7rpg vs MIA.

41mpg

16.6ppg on 45.6% FG 49.6% TS 92 TS+
10.2apg vs 3.3 turnovers per game
6.8rpg
2.1spg

Phenomenal possession creation for a PG.

[Who]

Cousy should be locked in as first team PG.

Rondo has a legit argument for the 2nd team though. Jo Jo White, Rondo or Dennis Johnson. I see all 3 of those guys as legit candidates.

Rondo's TS+ of 92 is a very bad number. DJ's isn't much better at TS+ of 94. Cousy himself was only a TS+ of 93. None of them were efficient scorers. Jo Jo White was the only efficient scorer of the bunch of them. Actually, he was only a TS+ 97.

I expected Jo Jo White to be average (around 100). A bit below average at 97. Primarily a jump-shooter and prior to the 3pt line. Not enough paints points or trips to the FT line. I suppose it makes sense.

[slamtheking]

I know career wise he's not in the discussion, but I think Rondo over a two year period had some of the best post season numbers in
Celtic playoff history.  Am I wrong that he set some records?

In other words, if we could have that Rondo over a longer period I'd put him at point guard.

Rondo had a 4 year postseason run from 2008-09 to 2011-12. 66 playoffs games. 16pts 10 dimes 7 boards 2 steals a night over 4yr period.

* 2009 - great series against CHI in first round and then very good against ORL
* 2010 - outplayed LeBron in ECSF, made a joke of ORL's PGs in ECF, BOS loses in 7 in the Finals. Rondo plays well all 4 series.
* 2011 - tears apart NYK in first round. MIA in the 2nd round. That was the series where Wade takes out Rondo. Plays with one arm. Valiant effort but he was largely ineffective albeit due to injury.
* 2012 - dominant against ATL, PHI and then superb against MIA in the ECF. 21ppg 11apg 7rpg vs MIA.

41mpg

16.6ppg on 45.6% FG 49.6% TS 92 TS+
10.2apg vs 3.3 turnovers per game
6.8rpg
2.1spg

Phenomenal possession creation for a PG.

The legend of Playoff Rondo was no myth

[Roy H.]

For those ranking Tatum ahead of McHale, keep in mind that Tatum has been Option 1/1a for most of his career, while McHale was never higher than Option 2 and played next to a great scorer in Bird, so Tatum's scoring numbers are going to be higher.

I think there's enough apples-to-oranges with those two that it's pretty hard to gauge. Personally, I think prime McHale with a green light was a bigger force. He could absolutely dominate and did play in the shadow of Bird + injuries. A lot of "what if" there.

That said, Tatum's career numbers will blow McHale away, and it's not like we actually got to test McHale that much as a #1 to prove the theory.

The other thing about McHale is that we only saw him at his absolute apex for one season.  In 1987, he was right there with Larry as a scoring option.  26 ppg on 60% shooting, along with first team all-defense.  And then, he broke his foot and played through it.  He was never quite the same after that.  He was still a legitimately great player, but 1987 McHale was a legit monster.

[Roy H.]

McHale's value goes down if we're playing 2026 basketball, though, which always adds a wrinkle to these sorts of all-timer lists if you're fortunate enough to be spoilt for choice at most spots.

Maybe, but maybe also Tatum's value goes down if they're playing 1986 basketball, because he doesn't have anywhere near the post game that McHale had.

Tatum could not even play PF in 1986.  He would be a prototypical SF though, and would be one of the best in the game at that time, just like now.  I don't consider Tatum a PF in any case.  He is a forward, yes, just not a true power forward.  When he is on the floor as the second big, it is more that the team is playing without a PF.  Kind of like when a football team plays with 3 WR or 2 TE.  The players are still WR or TE, that does not change, the only thing that changes is the number of them on the field.

In 1986, teams could not get away with playing without (2) legitimate bigs on the floor, usually as true C and a true PF.  Some teams played with (2) C or (2) PF, but there were always (2) bigs.  That is not the case today.  A team can play with (1) C and (4) guards, you don't even necessarily have (2) forwards.  There are very few true PF these days and not that many true PGs either.  Combo guards rule. I guess you could classify Tatum as a combo forward in a similar manner as a combo guard, but Tatum is not a big and not a PF now and certainly could not have been one in 1986.

Larry was one of the first guys who could play both as a "true" SF and PF.  He had the size and strength to hang with bullies down low.

[Who]

McHale was unlucky on some of the All-NBA votes.

The league was voting in 2 SFs each year until he broke the pattern in 1987. It was Bird and Dr J for the first 4 years of the 80s, the Bird and B King for 2 years (1984 and 1985), and Bird and Dominique Wilkins in 1986.

McHale has a good argument to being the best PF in the league in a few of the previous seasons. I also like Terry Cummings for this title but McHale always had his number so I'll give the edge to McHale in that battle. Probably for the 3 years prior from 1983-84, 84-85, 85-86 - McHale was the top PF in the league along with 1987 when he got his 1st Team All-NBA selection. I am inclined to favour T Cummings (as a rookie) over McHale in 1982-83. I'd have TC as the 2nd best PF behind McHale from 1983-86 which ends when Barkley and K Malone emerge as superstar talents.

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So it is interesting to look at McHale as the best player in his position in the league for what is probably a 4 year run from 1983-84 to 1986-87 when injury ended his run.

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Maybe Dan Roundfield as the best PF in the league in the previous 2-3 years (1979-80, 80-81, 81-82). Then the long reign of Elvin Hayes throughout most if not all of the 1970s.

Then Barkley and K Malone take over the voting after McHale's injury and later Bird's injury. Bird and Barkley together in 1988. Then Barkley and K Malone for 3 straight years until C Mullin breaks the cycle in 1992 and we get a SF back in there. Then Chuck and Malone