If I had a chance to trade Smart For Elfrid Peyton I would do it in a heartbeat

[colincb]

In terms of from where and how he shoots as a 20 year old rookie, Payton looks a lot like a certain former Celtics PG:

http://bkref.com/tiny/KjWAw

Interesting that Rondo's rookie stats are a solid notch above Smart's. I love the way people keep saying Rondo is/was a bad shooter even though Smart can't shoot and Rondo had better shooting stats as a rookie. Had more steals too. Basically had more of everything that's useful. But hey. Smart plays with effort I guess. Which is sad. I mean you play with this legendary effort, but still can't get it done. I know. I know. I'm a troll. Smart just plays soooooo haaarrrddd. He would neeevvverrr dog it. I know.

Smart has the better shooting stats using eFG% and TS% than Rondo and both were better than Peyton.  No one playing as many minutes as Peyton has a worse true shooting percentage this season.  The three worse players with more than 1,000 minutes were Josh Smith, Peyton, and Rondo. All the players ranked worse were scrubs with less than half as many minutes played. Smart was ranked 211th compared to Peyton's 433rd ranking.

[MBunge]

In terms of from where and how he shoots as a 20 year old rookie, Payton looks a lot like a certain former Celtics PG:

http://bkref.com/tiny/KjWAw

Interesting that Rondo's rookie stats are a solid notch above Smart's. I love the way people keep saying Rondo is/was a bad shooter even though Smart can't shoot and Rondo had better shooting stats as a rookie. Had more steals too. Basically had more of everything that's useful. But hey. Smart plays with effort I guess. Which is sad. I mean you play with this legendary effort, but still can't get it done. I know. I know. I'm a troll. Smart just plays soooooo haaarrrddd. He would neeevvverrr dog it. I know.

Through their first 23 games...

Rondo 39% from the field, 14% from 3, 3.6 points, 2.5 rebounds, 2.3 assists.

Smart 40% from the field, 35% from 3, 6.5 points, 2.2 rebounds, 2.7 assists.

Statistically speaking, Smart isn't just equalling Rondo.  He's beating him.

Mike

[Boris Badenov]

In terms of from where and how he shoots as a 20 year old rookie, Payton looks a lot like a certain former Celtics PG:

http://bkref.com/tiny/KjWAw

Interesting that Rondo's rookie stats are a solid notch above Smart's. I love the way people keep saying Rondo is/was a bad shooter even though Smart can't shoot and Rondo had better shooting stats as a rookie. Had more steals too. Basically had more of everything that's useful. But hey. Smart plays with effort I guess. Which is sad. I mean you play with this legendary effort, but still can't get it done. I know. I know. I'm a troll. Smart just plays soooooo haaarrrddd. He would neeevvverrr dog it. I know.

I'm wondering what it is about Rondo's shooting stats that's better than Smart's, he took more 2pters and FTs but he shot worse on 2s, 3s, and FTs.  Rondo is a good comp for Payton, but he and Smart are totally different players

He compares/projects better to Kyle Lowry: http://bkref.com/tiny/AFKir

EDIT:  Looking at it more, I'm actually amazed at how well Payton and Rondo's rookie seasons compare.  That doesn't necessarily mean that Payton will be as good as Rondo, but it's almost uncanny

That was my general thinking too.

Not sure about the Lowry comp for Smart though. The thing that leaps out at me about Smart is how many 3s he takes compared to all those other guys. I mean, he takes twice as many 3s as 2s. It's quite unusual...particularly given his background.

[hwangjini_1]

In terms of from where and how he shoots as a 20 year old rookie, Payton looks a lot like a certain former Celtics PG:

http://bkref.com/tiny/KjWAw

Interesting that Rondo's rookie stats are a solid notch above Smart's. I love the way people keep saying Rondo is/was a bad shooter even though Smart can't shoot and Rondo had better shooting stats as a rookie. Had more steals too. Basically had more of everything that's useful. But hey. Smart plays with effort I guess. Which is sad. I mean you play with this legendary effort, but still can't get it done. I know. I know. I'm a troll. Smart just plays soooooo haaarrrddd. He would neeevvverrr dog it. I know.

I'm wondering what it is about Rondo's shooting stats that's better than Smart's, he took more 2pters and FTs but he shot worse on 2s, 3s, and FTs.  Rondo is a good comp for Payton, but he and Smart are totally different players

He compares/projects better to Kyle Lowry: http://bkref.com/tiny/AFKir

EDIT:  Looking at it more, I'm actually amazed at how well Payton and Rondo's rookie seasons compare.  That doesn't necessarily mean that Payton will be as good as Rondo, but it's almost uncanny

That was my general thinking too.

Not sure about the Lowry comp for Smart though. The thing that leaps out at me about Smart is how many 3s he takes compared to all those other guys. I mean, he takes twice as many 3s as 2s. It's quite unusual...particularly given his background.

perhaps an artifact of playing within CBS' system this year.

[BitterJim]

In terms of from where and how he shoots as a 20 year old rookie, Payton looks a lot like a certain former Celtics PG:

http://bkref.com/tiny/KjWAw

Interesting that Rondo's rookie stats are a solid notch above Smart's. I love the way people keep saying Rondo is/was a bad shooter even though Smart can't shoot and Rondo had better shooting stats as a rookie. Had more steals too. Basically had more of everything that's useful. But hey. Smart plays with effort I guess. Which is sad. I mean you play with this legendary effort, but still can't get it done. I know. I know. I'm a troll. Smart just plays soooooo haaarrrddd. He would neeevvverrr dog it. I know.

I'm wondering what it is about Rondo's shooting stats that's better than Smart's, he took more 2pters and FTs but he shot worse on 2s, 3s, and FTs.  Rondo is a good comp for Payton, but he and Smart are totally different players

He compares/projects better to Kyle Lowry: http://bkref.com/tiny/AFKir

EDIT:  Looking at it more, I'm actually amazed at how well Payton and Rondo's rookie seasons compare.  That doesn't necessarily mean that Payton will be as good as Rondo, but it's almost uncanny

That was my general thinking too.

Not sure about the Lowry comp for Smart though. The thing that leaps out at me about Smart is how many 3s he takes compared to all those other guys. I mean, he takes twice as many 3s as 2s. It's quite unusual...particularly given his background.

perhaps an artifact of playing within CBS' system this year.

Yeah, it seems to be related to him playing off ball more than being the ball handler. I hope he works on his penetrating soon, his shooting looks good but getting to the rack like he did in college would help a lot

[kraidstar]

Neither player is very good.  I wouldn't do this trade because it is simply trading crap for crap.  However, I wouldn't be upset if it happened.

Edit: in addition,  "heart" and "toughness" are frequently just euphemisms for talentless.

Ill think about that when those words are used to describe guys like Duncan, KG, Kobe, etc.

+1
and marc gasol, the less-skilled of the gasol brothers, and yet the far superior defender. if pau had his little brother's heart and toughness he'd have been just as good as hakeem.
the same could be said for a lot of other players too. most players in this league have great physical talent but don't have the mind/will/heart to dominate with it.

[kraidstar]

Saying someone is competitive and has heart does not mean they aren't good players. KG is a huge one and that's just one example (I can give many more if you want).

Why is it that a lot of people hate more on our own players while propping up other players? Every day I check this site, there is only one person who currently plays for the Celtics that people don't trash and that's Z (new guys and Young don't count but I can imagine a year from now after unmet expectations). Everyone else gets a "bad player" thread at least every other week. GWall rarely plays and people still talk bad about him LOL.

I'm not saying you have to love our guys but man, can they get a break at all?

Smart isn't automatically a great player= bum
AB isn't good at every single aspect of the game= DA that contract is the worst ever
Bass not a star=bum
Pressey 3-4th PG who racks up DNP= worst player ever (okay, 2nd, ppl still mad about Fab)
KO not even through 2nd season, horribly  inconsistent= Giannis is a god
GWall= DA messed us up for years give up a first to get rid of him
Sully= Allstar one day and horrible fatty the next

 

I'm glad the players don't seem to meet up with a lot of you (that or you lie face2face), they always say good things about the fans.

You seem to mistake opinions for facts.

The reality with this forum is that most of the fans here are homers, who will take opinions as a rub on their players, then completely right a post about why the opinion of that person is wrong. Which is funny because all it shows is that they somehow think they can prove with the stats that they discount themselves because it's "only 22 games" or he is "still young"

Opinions are based on Facts, and history, also physical abilities

Many people have said Smart is no the most ahtletic, while Elfrid is extremely atheltic
Many have said Smart cannot finish or does not play above the rim, while Elfrid does all those better.....

so my opinion is that Elfird will be a very good pentrator and good finisher to the basket , while smart will probably never be that good.....

See that is the opinion based on scouts who have watched these guys play, they have based it on athleticism as well, which seems like Smart has not got too much of,

And what do you know? You can see that Smart is not a driver, a finisher, a go to the hoop type player.


The people who talk out of there butts so to speak are not the ones saying Smart wont be as good, its the ones who think he will be a star or a very good player.

It doesn't matter if it's an opinion or not if it doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense.

Also, this may come as a shock to you but scouts have been wrong MANY TIMES too.  I could own the Celtics if I was paid in nickles every time a scout was wrong. Equally as shocking, scouts are giving their opinions too, no matter what they base it on. Any bum off the street can use the same data they use and be as right/wrong as a scout can be. Yes, some people can have a better understanding of how to judge players but just look at how many people who are drafted and aren't playing in the league the next few seasons... who helped decide to pick them? What do you know? Scouts. I'm not sure, maybe it was Joe Blow who chose Fab Melo (one of thousands)? 

I won't believe you really think all or even a great majority of opinions are based on facts, history, and physical abilities.

*Avery Bradley is a terrible player
*Avery Bradley is a great player

Give you both sides of the spectrum. Now, just with those small examples, tell me how either one of those opinions are based on any of those things.

Many people (loads of scouts) say that this person or that person is the next Bird, Jordan, etc. when they step up to the big leagues they are nothing more than the next bust.

I said before

Avery Bradley will not be starter on a good team that wants to win one , why? because hes undersized, and lacks basketball IQ .....DONE DEAL

What you get on Celticsblog

"Bradley can do backdoor cuts, him and Rondo will be special, hes can be really good"


That is what you get here. Not reality based facts. This is the NBA not college.

AB was already a starter on a team that wanted to win one. Your theory hasn't been proven right just b/c AB was injured and required surgery. What happens from here on out doesn't matter because you are already factually wrong!

I can see I'm wasting time with you, here I am trying to have a conversation with someone who is just trying to be condescending and failing. You can say what you want from here.

DONE DEAL

+1
and that team was playing like garbage before AB took over as starter. when not asked to be a leading scorer he was extremely effective, the c's probably beat the heat if he had stayed healthy all the way through the playoffs.

[chlldaddy]

This is the problem now with a lot of people. We WANT to trade everyone BEFORE we actually give them a chance to show what they have. I want Smart period. He is on my team and my team drafted him and had faith he was who we needed at the 6 pick so I support him 100 percent!!!!

[celtics2030]

Payton won the game for Orlando tonight , 8 minutes remaining in the game he checks and ...


Scores 12 points, 3 assists, 3 rebounds ,1 steal, 4-4 from the line, 4-4 from the field, All in the 4th


finished with 15,6,5,2 steals

He did something that Smart cannot do, take it to the basket.

Maybe If Smart can take it to the basket I will change my tune.

[Boris Badenov]

Payton won the game for Orlando tonight , 8 minutes remaining in the game he checks and ...


Scores 12 points, 3 assists, 3 rebounds ,1 steal, 4-4 from the line, 4-4 from the field, All in the 4th


finished with 15,6,5,2 steals

He did something that Smart cannot do, take it to the basket.

Maybe If Smart can take it to the basket I will change my tune.

Well then, I guess those 8 minutes of basketball settle the entire matter.

[celtics2030]

Payton won the game for Orlando tonight , 8 minutes remaining in the game he checks and ...


Scores 12 points, 3 assists, 3 rebounds ,1 steal, 4-4 from the line, 4-4 from the field, All in the 4th


finished with 15,6,5,2 steals

He did something that Smart cannot do, take it to the basket.

Maybe If Smart can take it to the basket I will change my tune.

Well then, I guess those 8 minutes of basketball settle the entire matter.

I guess so , for you they seem to.

Although , thankfully Marcus Smart has done nothing but shoot three pointers today...so nobody will bump this thread tonight.

[greenrunsdeep41]

Saying someone is competitive and has heart does not mean they aren't good players. KG is a huge one and that's just one example (I can give many more if you want).

Why is it that a lot of people hate more on our own players while propping up other players? Every day I check this site, there is only one person who currently plays for the Celtics that people don't trash and that's Z (new guys and Young don't count but I can imagine a year from now after unmet expectations). Everyone else gets a "bad player" thread at least every other week. GWall rarely plays and people still talk bad about him LOL.

I'm not saying you have to love our guys but man, can they get a break at all?

Smart isn't automatically a great player= bum
AB isn't good at every single aspect of the game= DA that contract is the worst ever
Bass not a star=bum
Pressey 3-4th PG who racks up DNP= worst player ever (okay, 2nd, ppl still mad about Fab)
KO not even through 2nd season, horribly  inconsistent= Giannis is a god
GWall= DA messed us up for years give up a first to get rid of him
Sully= Allstar one day and horrible fatty the next

 

I'm glad the players don't seem to meet up with a lot of you (that or you lie face2face), they always say good things about the fans.

You seem to mistake opinions for facts.

The reality with this forum is that most of the fans here are homers, who will take opinions as a rub on their players, then completely right a post about why the opinion of that person is wrong. Which is funny because all it shows is that they somehow think they can prove with the stats that they discount themselves because it's "only 22 games" or he is "still young"

Opinions are based on Facts, and history, also physical abilities

Many people have said Smart is no the most ahtletic, while Elfrid is extremely atheltic
Many have said Smart cannot finish or does not play above the rim, while Elfrid does all those better.....

so my opinion is that Elfird will be a very good pentrator and good finisher to the basket , while smart will probably never be that good.....

See that is the opinion based on scouts who have watched these guys play, they have based it on athleticism as well, which seems like Smart has not got too much of,

And what do you know? You can see that Smart is not a driver, a finisher, a go to the hoop type player.


The people who talk out of there butts so to speak are not the ones saying Smart wont be as good, its the ones who think he will be a star or a very good player.

So what you are saying is that based on what scouts say about a player or how a player is currently playing is all they will ever be? Im sorry but you are not making much sense. Players, especially at a young age are dynamic in the sense that they can change and add to their strengths. What i surmised from your post is that you believe that because posters here justify their opinions with "he is young" that they are wrong and players cannot get better?

Well under that understanding we can both agree that neither Peyton or Smart are championship caliber players currently and because "they are just young" isn't a good enough reason to believe that they ever will be then neither of them can become one. So why even bother with this post because under your rational were not winning a ship either way. So lets keep our scrub who will never get better.

Im an artist, and I'm constantly running into the limiting conversation about something like a CNC machine and people saying well you can't create with that its not using your hand, the machine is doing the work. See, the conversation is pointless, there will always be some new machine, some new thing that does something different and we can never know what it is until its success or failure comes to fruition. Therefore what we do as fans or critics, is try to find traits of things that we believe will lead to success. And when i critique Paytons game vs Smarts, ill take Smart every day of the week. He has soul, something you can't teach, something a lot of guys learn too late in their careers. Ask Pierce, Ray, and Garnett. They all almost waited too long to decide to put their easy going aloof playing styles aside. Rondo is a perfect example, he is above the process. Well heres some news, no one is above the process. And i could never know for certain, but it seems to me that Smart has what it takes from day one. Payton is going to have to learn that through battle.

[celtics2030]

Your post is ridiculous.

Yes I rather listen to scouts

not some guy like you who says Marcus Smart has  "SOUL" lol

and also saying that Ray , Pierce, Garnett, learned that later in their careers...3 HOF players your talking about

your delusional. You have to be.

[greenrunsdeep41]

Your post is ridiculous.

Yes I rather listen to scouts

not some guy like you who says Marcus Smart has  "SOUL" lol

and also saying that Ray , Pierce, Garnett, learned that later in their careers...3 HOF players your talking about

your delusional. You have to be.

First off, Im not sure if you can interpret words successfully. So you should re read my post. Im just saying that what scouts say about a guy in his current state is not all he will ever become. I don't think i need to quantify that. I'm almost sure that, if you follow sports, you are familiar with plenty of examples.

Secondly, how many championships/playoff series did any of those guys win before coming here? I can count on one hand, the same hand would have zero rings on it.

[BitterJim]

Your post is ridiculous.

Yes I rather listen to scouts

not some guy like you who says Marcus Smart has  "SOUL" lol

and also saying that Ray , Pierce, Garnett, learned that later in their careers...3 HOF players your talking about

your delusional. You have to be.

I have to wonder what scouts you're talking about that rank Payton above Smart, I can't think of a single Mock Draft or player ranking that had Payton taken before Smart

Also: What's with all the insults? People disagreeing with you is no reason to imply that they're in drugs or call them delusional