Author Topic: Bill Simmons on Rondo  (Read 33157 times)

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Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #75 on: April 15, 2014, 11:42:41 AM »

Offline Sixth Man

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Rondo is a great player - too bad he is uncoachable.

Based on what?

Won't implement a passing offense, walks the ball up the court, takes forever to initiate a play, constantly gambles on defense, frequently eschews the obvious and effective pass in favor of a "highlight" assist attempt, etc.  I think all this has been discussed (and argued over) to death here.  On the other hand, he has great athletic ability, rare court vision, superb passing skill, rare rebounding skill for a PG and has become a respectable jump shooter.  He has very high BBIQ, but doesn't always utilize it.  Superb competitior, also.

He is not nearly the player he should be, IMHO.  Oh, and by the way, he's a terrible FT shooter (but you already knew that...).

Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #76 on: April 15, 2014, 11:50:13 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Rondo and vitor for asik and a houston first would make me happy
That would make me extremely unhappy.

Why acquire Asik while shipping out Rondo? He's not super young and needs a new contract himself in the same FA year.

Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #77 on: April 15, 2014, 11:58:40 AM »

Offline NYDan

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I'm not sure I'm ready to trade Rondo after seeing his sample size this season, still a very big fan of his talents and he does things on the court that can't be taught. But I'm really starting to question whether or not he is compatible with the motion offense Stevens wants to run and has run successfully when Rondo hasn't played. Perhaps Rondo is indeed playing to tank to an extent, or at least relying on old habits due to not having a full season in this system. I don't believe it, but it would at least provide a reason to wait until next season for those looking to judge his play without caveats (that and not being 100%).

Rondo may be at a crossroads as a Celtic, much like Pierce was when Doc came to town. I have no doubt the coaching staff is looking to meet him halfway but an adjustment in his game is necessary in order for him to reach a new level that seemingly clashes with his natural tendencies. I'm rooting him to follow in #34's footsteps and become a legitimate fast break point guard that keeps the ball moving instead of being the lone initiator at the top of the key, I just haven't seen strong evidence that's been happening to close out the year.

Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #78 on: April 15, 2014, 12:01:40 PM »

Offline ddb

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I have maintained all along that if Boston lands a Top 3 pick in this years draft that Rondo is about as good as gone.  And I like the Lakers or Houston as the trade partner. 

If Boston lands outside of the Top 3 then that pick will be packaged in some sort of blockbuster deal to bring in star talent to join Rondo in Boston. 

People, like Bill Simmons and many others tend to overreact when it comes to Rajon.  If he played out of his mind this season (coming off major knee surgery mind you) and helped the Celtics win games then people would flip that he's ruining their lottery chances.  Or if he took the season to get his legs back and get some reps as the team mounted up the losses (what actually happened) then people are bashing him as a guy that cannot win without other great players around him.  It's a lose/lose situation for Rondo.

My stance.  First of all, he's a Point Guard who's best asset is creating for others.  Well, if he doesn't have good players that can make plays around him then his best skill is underutilized.  RONDO NEEDS GOOD PLAYERS AROUND HIM TO MAXIMIZE HIS ABILITY.  This isn't rocket science.  Rondo IS NOT Steph Curry or the type that is going to shoot his way to 35-40 pts. 

the second thing on Rondo shouldn't be a surprise either.  BECAUSE he's not a Steph Curry like shooter/scorer he CANNOT be a go-to guy or the "best" player on a good team.  He can be the facilitator...he can be a floor general.  but if you want him to be the best player then you're bound to be disappointed. 

that said, if you bring in Kevin Love and Omer Asik to team up with Rondo then suddenly you are 90% better on both ends of the floor.  You have a post defender (Asik) who acts as a safety valve on D....then you  have a dynamic offensive, GO-TO player on offense.  Also, Kevin Love is the best outlet passer in basketball which kick starts and encourages the team to run...

let this all play out.  Lets not bash Rondo.  He did exactly what we needed him to do this season.  Get back, gets some reps in and minimize his frustration with losing.  Personally, I feel like Danny, Wyc and Brad all sat down with Rondo and explained to him the plan.  I feel like Rondo is "in" on it. 

lets relax

Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #79 on: April 15, 2014, 12:11:06 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Rondo is a great player - too bad he is uncoachable.

Based on what?

Won't implement a passing offense, walks the ball up the court, takes forever to initiate a play, constantly gambles on defense, frequently eschews the obvious and effective pass in favor of a "highlight" assist attempt, etc.  I think all this has been discussed (and argued over) to death here.  On the other hand, he has great athletic ability, rare court vision, superb passing skill, rare rebounding skill for a PG and has become a respectable jump shooter.  He has very high BBIQ, but doesn't always utilize it.  Superb competitior, also.

He is not nearly the player he should be, IMHO.  Oh, and by the way, he's a terrible FT shooter (but you already knew that...).

So he has pros & cons just like every other player in the league.  How does any of the above make him uncoachable, though?

When I think uncoachable, I think guys who are selfish, clash with teammates, fight with coaches, have a "get mine" mentality.  Generally, someone who would also be considered a "cancer".

Rondo's been in the league for 8 years now.  Sure, he's butted heads with both teammates & coaches at times but in a minor sense.   

In terms of what he's doing on the court?  I just don't see uncoachable.  This season has been a combination of coming back from injury and playing with a less than stellar supporting cast.  His play has been up & down and I don't think his skill set suits being THE guy but he's one helluva complementary player. 

I just have never seen "uncoachable" with the guy.   


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Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #80 on: April 15, 2014, 01:11:58 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Rondo is a great player - too bad he is uncoachable.

Based on what?

Won't implement a passing offense, walks the ball up the court, takes forever to initiate a play, constantly gambles on defense, frequently eschews the obvious and effective pass in favor of a "highlight" assist attempt, etc.  I think all this has been discussed (and argued over) to death here.  On the other hand, he has great athletic ability, rare court vision, superb passing skill, rare rebounding skill for a PG and has become a respectable jump shooter.  He has very high BBIQ, but doesn't always utilize it.  Superb competitior, also.

He is not nearly the player he should be, IMHO.  Oh, and by the way, he's a terrible FT shooter (but you already knew that...).

So he has pros & cons just like every other player in the league.  How does any of the above make him uncoachable, though?

When I think uncoachable, I think guys who are selfish, clash with teammates, fight with coaches, have a "get mine" mentality.  Generally, someone who would also be considered a "cancer".

Rondo's been in the league for 8 years now.  Sure, he's butted heads with both teammates & coaches at times but in a minor sense.   

In terms of what he's doing on the court?  I just don't see uncoachable.  This season has been a combination of coming back from injury and playing with a less than stellar supporting cast.  His play has been up & down and I don't think his skill set suits being THE guy but he's one helluva complementary player. 

I just have never seen "uncoachable" with the guy.   
There have been numerous instances of the bold with Rondo though.  I mean him and Rivers almost came to blows at one point. 
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Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #81 on: April 15, 2014, 01:22:18 PM »

Offline Sixth Man

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Rondo is a great player - too bad he is uncoachable.

Based on what?

Won't implement a passing offense, walks the ball up the court, takes forever to initiate a play, constantly gambles on defense, frequently eschews the obvious and effective pass in favor of a "highlight" assist attempt, etc.  I think all this has been discussed (and argued over) to death here.  On the other hand, he has great athletic ability, rare court vision, superb passing skill, rare rebounding skill for a PG and has become a respectable jump shooter.  He has very high BBIQ, but doesn't always utilize it.  Superb competitior, also.

He is not nearly the player he should be, IMHO.  Oh, and by the way, he's a terrible FT shooter (but you already knew that...).

So he has pros & cons just like every other player in the league.  How does any of the above make him uncoachable, though?

When I think uncoachable, I think guys who are selfish, clash with teammates, fight with coaches, have a "get mine" mentality.  Generally, someone who would also be considered a "cancer".

Rondo's been in the league for 8 years now.  Sure, he's butted heads with both teammates & coaches at times but in a minor sense.   

In terms of what he's doing on the court?  I just don't see uncoachable.  This season has been a combination of coming back from injury and playing with a less than stellar supporting cast.  His play has been up & down and I don't think his skill set suits being THE guy but he's one helluva complementary player. 

I just have never seen "uncoachable" with the guy.   

Both Rivers and Stevens are avowed proponents of a passing offense (look at how the Clips play these days).  Rondo didn't play that way during the last few seasons under Doc and he has continued, when available, to pound the ball up the floor, taking 12, 14, 16 seconds to begin to initiate a play.  That might have worked most of the time with semi-fossilized but still great offensive options named Pierce, Garnett or Allen, but it's death on an offensively-challenged young squad.  How are young players going to improve on offense in that kind of an environment? 

RR's obsession with Sportscenter-worthy highlight assists is well-known to Celts fans of the last few years. Ditto for his incessant attempts to ballhawk on defense.  If he doesn't make the steal, his man is going to the rim for dunk, easy shot, or assist.  Those are hallmark symptoms of someone with Uncoachability Disease. 

Hard to comment about off-the-court stuff, since we, as fans, are rarely privy to what really goes on, but I think it's clear that he was AWOL in LA for his birthday day off.  As a Sacramento area resident, I can fully sympathize with RR for preferring to celebrate in LA, instead ( ;D), but he could have simply asked for, and likely received, permission to stay behind on his off-game.  The fact that he didn't speaks volumes about how he sees himself in relation to his coach and teammates.  I would bet that he wouldn't have dreamed of doing that if PP and KG were still around.

Finally, an uncoachable player may always be a "cancer" in your eyes, but I think that's an awfully explosive metaphor to use, even if the tumor in question is not benign... ;)

After seeing the Heinsohn, Ainge and Simmons comments recently, I have to think that the Celts organization has already made the decision to move RR on to another team.  If they do, I will follow and cheer him, because in addition to his many flaws, he's also a genius player who QB'd us to a title and has provided Celts fans with many brilliant memories.  I'll never forget how he played the fourth quarter against Miami in the playoffs after a dislocated elbow - what an incredible competitor!  However, I think both RR and the Celts will be better served by a trade.  Imagine RR on the Rockets, or even the Lakers...
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 01:41:00 PM by Sixth Man »

Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #82 on: April 15, 2014, 04:06:03 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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Shooting is not the only basketball skill there is.  Rondo's elite passing and ball handling skills won't go away.
but when you lose a step, you can't hit the passes because you aren't in the same position on the floor.  You can't do a killer crossover (as an example), if your knee is weaker or slower.  That is the problem with Rondo right now.  His best attributes were based in a large part on his physical gifts, he just doesn't have those physical gifts anymore.  He has to learn how to play differently, something he has never demonstrated a real ability to do.  He isn't a guy that can morph into a spot up shooter, or a back you down and post you up type PG.  He isn't going to blow by anyone off the dribble.  His game was and is based on his physical attributes, which he just doesn't have right now.  He should be able to get some of that back as his knee gets stronger, but he will never be the player he once was physically, so he is going to have to change his game a bit.  I have very little confidence that he will be able to make the adjustments he will need to make to be an all star PG again.  He will still be very good, but I see a guy that is at best a title contenders 3rd best player where pre-injury I think he could have been the 2nd best player (though not the second scoring option).

He may never be as athletic as he was before the injury, but I expect him to look more explosive and more comfortable driving the basketball again by next season. 

And I think it bordering on criminal how many of you don't recognize how skillful Rondo is at finding the open man and delivering the basketball.  There is a theory that this skill is simply a by-product of his athleticism and/or the teammates he's played with. 

Rajon Rondo is one of the best basketball passers of the last twenty years.  I'd honestly say in the top five, along with Johnson, Nash, Kidd, and Stockton.  That fact that this isn't recognized as skill more often really hurts my basketball sensibilities.

Yeah I feel that Rondo is being unappreciated on this site....

Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #83 on: April 15, 2014, 05:05:29 PM »

Offline CapnDunks

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Rondo always selectively plays with effort. If a game isn't important to win, he doesn't play. This whole season wasn't important. Rondo didn't try to win. Why would he?

He played well enough so we can see he'll recover from injury. Maybe he won't adapt... but that would shock me.

Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #84 on: April 15, 2014, 06:13:58 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Shooting is not the only basketball skill there is.  Rondo's elite passing and ball handling skills won't go away.
but when you lose a step, you can't hit the passes because you aren't in the same position on the floor.

  That explains why he's been leading the league in assists since the beginning of February, and why he's shown almost zero decrease in assists despite the dearth of offensive talent around him.

Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #85 on: April 15, 2014, 06:27:01 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo's physical gifts were good enough to get 8 points, 14 assists, 11 rebounds and 2 steals in 35 minutes against Philly today.

As difficult to parse a box score as any we've seen from Rondo.

I think part of what makes Rondo so polarizing is there's a major disconnect between "winning basketball" Rondo and "putting up numbers across the box score" Rondo.  Sometimes the two overlap.  Often they don't.

  That's true of every player though, isn't it? How many players only put up big numbers in wins and not losses?

Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #86 on: April 15, 2014, 06:35:51 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo is a great player - too bad he is uncoachable.

Based on what?

Won't implement a passing offense, walks the ball up the court, takes forever to initiate a play, constantly gambles on defense, frequently eschews the obvious and effective pass in favor of a "highlight" assist attempt, etc.  I think all this has been discussed (and argued over) to death here.  On the other hand, he has great athletic ability, rare court vision, superb passing skill, rare rebounding skill for a PG and has become a respectable jump shooter.  He has very high BBIQ, but doesn't always utilize it.  Superb competitior, also.

He is not nearly the player he should be, IMHO.  Oh, and by the way, he's a terrible FT shooter (but you already knew that...).

So he has pros & cons just like every other player in the league.  How does any of the above make him uncoachable, though?

When I think uncoachable, I think guys who are selfish, clash with teammates, fight with coaches, have a "get mine" mentality.  Generally, someone who would also be considered a "cancer".

Rondo's been in the league for 8 years now.  Sure, he's butted heads with both teammates & coaches at times but in a minor sense.   

In terms of what he's doing on the court?  I just don't see uncoachable.  This season has been a combination of coming back from injury and playing with a less than stellar supporting cast.  His play has been up & down and I don't think his skill set suits being THE guy but he's one helluva complementary player. 

I just have never seen "uncoachable" with the guy.   

Both Rivers and Stevens are avowed proponents of a passing offense (look at how the Clips play these days).  Rondo didn't play that way during the last few seasons under Doc and he has continued, when available, to pound the ball up the floor, taking 12, 14, 16 seconds to begin to initiate a play.  That might have worked most of the time with semi-fossilized but still great offensive options named Pierce, Garnett or Allen, but it's death on an offensively-challenged young squad.  How are young players going to improve on offense in that kind of an environment? 


  Rondo doesn't take 12+ seconds to begin to initiate plays. That's a pretty wild exaggeration. And Doc goes to the Clips and CP spends the first few months of the season averaging 12 or so assists/game. If you're claiming he doesn't run a point guard-centric offense then the evidence doesn't back you up.

Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #87 on: April 15, 2014, 06:40:01 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Rondo's physical gifts were good enough to get 8 points, 14 assists, 11 rebounds and 2 steals in 35 minutes against Philly today.

As difficult to parse a box score as any we've seen from Rondo.

I think part of what makes Rondo so polarizing is there's a major disconnect between "winning basketball" Rondo and "putting up numbers across the box score" Rondo.  Sometimes the two overlap.  Often they don't.

  That's true of every player though, isn't it? How many players only put up big numbers in wins and not losses?

Rondo had the only double digit positive +/- on our team that game and it was +16.  The next closest was Bass who had +8, so Rondo literally doubled the next best player.  The other two positive were Green at +1 and Bradley at +6, so Rondo literally had a better +/- than all of the positive +/- guys on our team combined.

Our second point guard, Phil Pressey, had -24 in 15 minutes against a team that just set the record for consecutive losses in NBA history.  Really let that sink in.  Rondo is an elite player, but one that requires talent around him to reach his true potential.  Even with the band of role players and people who shouldn't be in the NBA on the team this year, he would have taken the assist title were he eligible.  Right now, we just don't have a lot of NBA players on our roster and the only one that is genuinely talented is Rondo.  I don't know what else to say. 

Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #88 on: April 15, 2014, 06:41:16 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Rajon Rondo is one of the best basketball passers of the last twenty years.  I'd honestly say in the top five, along with Johnson, Nash, Kidd, and Stockton.  That fact that this isn't recognized as skill more often really hurts my basketball sensibilities.

Obviously this wasn't intended to be any sort of a definitive list, but I'd put Jason 'White Chocolate' Williams on that list before at least half of those guys.

There's a guy who really is underrated, at least when it comes to passing.

Also, you're talking about Magic Johnson, right?
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Re: Bill Simmons on Rondo
« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2014, 06:41:35 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rajon Rondo is one of the best basketball passers of the last twenty years.  I'd honestly say in the top five, along with Johnson, Nash, Kidd, and Stockton.  That fact that this isn't recognized as skill more often really hurts my basketball sensibilities.

  It's pretty ridiculous. Unsurprising though.