Bill Simmons on Rondo

[Vermont Green]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho.

Thoughts?

Hypocrit is my thought.   I thought you wanted us to tank?  Shouldn't you be happy with the results?

I don't get this response at all.  The first post included some of the most basic, incontrovertible stats that there could be.  Over 2 seasons (and it is actually 3 if you go back one more season) our team record is better without Rondo playing.  For the portion of last season where we were winning less with Rondo, he was setting records for assists (but I guess he would play even better if it were the playoffs).  You can draw any conclusion you want from that but it is hard to rationally conclude that Rondo makes all the other players better.

You can craft counter arguments, last season PP and KG got healthier at the same time Rondo got injured, Rondo only plays his best in the playoffs, our schedule is easier when Rondo was injured, Rondo is tanking on purpose this year more than other players are tanking.  But calling it hypocritical?  That I don't get.

I believe Rondo is over rated and his trade value is diminishing.  I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball.  I also think Rondo is good and could help the right team (such as the Lakers or Houston or even Detroit).  I think the best outcome for all would be a good draft day trade where Rondo goes to a team that is better suited to Rondo's talents and we get a fair package of young players and picks.

[BballTim]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho. 

Thoughts?

  LA Clippers this year with Paul 42-18 .700 without Paul 13-6 .684

  Why don't you explain exactly what you think the Clips having a virtually identical winning percentage with and without Chris Paul says about his play and his impact on the team and then we can figure out what it's supposed to mean about Rondo.

[lightspeed5]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho. 

Thoughts?

he knows we're tanking.

[pokeKingCurtis]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho. 

Thoughts?

he knows we're tanking.

I see he's been lurking Celticsblog.

Lar should not be provoking Rondo then.

[Smitty77]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho.

Thoughts?

Hypocrit is my thought.   I thought you wanted us to tank?  Shouldn't you be happy with the results?

I don't get this response at all.  The first post included some of the most basic, incontrovertible stats that there could be.  Over 2 seasons (and it is actually 3 if you go back one more season) our team record is better without Rondo playing.  For the portion of last season where we were winning less with Rondo, he was setting records for assists (but I guess he would play even better if it were the playoffs).  You can draw any conclusion you want from that but it is hard to rationally conclude that Rondo makes all the other players better.

You can craft counter arguments, last season PP and KG got healthier at the same time Rondo got injured, Rondo only plays his best in the playoffs, our schedule is easier when Rondo was injured, Rondo is tanking on purpose this year more than other players are tanking.  But calling it hypocritical?  That I don't get.

I believe Rondo is over rated and his trade value is diminishing.  I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball.  I also think Rondo is good and could help the right team (such as the Lakers or Houston or even Detroit).  I think the best outcome for all would be a good draft day trade where Rondo goes to a team that is better suited to Rondo's talents and we get a fair package of young players and picks.

You say this VermontGreen:  "I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball."  How do you KNOW this or have any proof to think this?  Name ONE NBA player to come back from ACL reconstruction and be more than a +15 player in PER less than 14-15 months after the surgery.  I will accept ONE example, but would certainly prefer MORE than one.  Rose was around a +10 coming back OVER 16 months after surgery, prior to getting hurt again this year. 

I would love to see some examples Vermont Green. 

Smitty77

[Vermont Green]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho.

Thoughts?

Hypocrit is my thought.   I thought you wanted us to tank?  Shouldn't you be happy with the results?

I don't get this response at all.  The first post included some of the most basic, incontrovertible stats that there could be.  Over 2 seasons (and it is actually 3 if you go back one more season) our team record is better without Rondo playing.  For the portion of last season where we were winning less with Rondo, he was setting records for assists (but I guess he would play even better if it were the playoffs).  You can draw any conclusion you want from that but it is hard to rationally conclude that Rondo makes all the other players better.

You can craft counter arguments, last season PP and KG got healthier at the same time Rondo got injured, Rondo only plays his best in the playoffs, our schedule is easier when Rondo was injured, Rondo is tanking on purpose this year more than other players are tanking.  But calling it hypocritical?  That I don't get.

I believe Rondo is over rated and his trade value is diminishing.  I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball.  I also think Rondo is good and could help the right team (such as the Lakers or Houston or even Detroit).  I think the best outcome for all would be a good draft day trade where Rondo goes to a team that is better suited to Rondo's talents and we get a fair package of young players and picks.

You say this VermontGreen:  "I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball."  How do you KNOW this or have any proof to think this?  Name ONE NBA player to come back from ACL reconstruction and be more than a +15 player in PER less than 14-15 months after the surgery.  I will accept ONE example, but would certainly prefer MORE than one.  Rose was around a +10 coming back OVER 16 months after surgery, prior to getting hurt again this year. 

I would love to see some examples Vermont Green. 

Smitty77

First, I said "I think", not "I KNOW" because there is no way to know.  Some athletes come back from knee surgery and play great (Adrian Peterson), others have difficulty including recurrences (Derrick Rose).  Since it is impossible to know what is going on with Rondo's knee, I have to base my opinion on what I see of his play on the court.  Based on what I see, it is my opinion that he looks fine physically/athletically and I don't expect that an offseason is going to result in any meaningful leap in his production or ability.

Are you suggesting that "you KNOW" the condition of his knee?  Can you give examples of something you see on the court that suggests he is favoring his knee or that athleticism is limited?  I don't begrudge you the point that someone could watch the game and come to a different opinion but I would challenge you if you feel you "know" any more than I "know".

[Smitty77]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho.

Thoughts?

Hypocrit is my thought.   I thought you wanted us to tank?  Shouldn't you be happy with the results?

I don't get this response at all.  The first post included some of the most basic, incontrovertible stats that there could be.  Over 2 seasons (and it is actually 3 if you go back one more season) our team record is better without Rondo playing.  For the portion of last season where we were winning less with Rondo, he was setting records for assists (but I guess he would play even better if it were the playoffs).  You can draw any conclusion you want from that but it is hard to rationally conclude that Rondo makes all the other players better.

You can craft counter arguments, last season PP and KG got healthier at the same time Rondo got injured, Rondo only plays his best in the playoffs, our schedule is easier when Rondo was injured, Rondo is tanking on purpose this year more than other players are tanking.  But calling it hypocritical?  That I don't get.

I believe Rondo is over rated and his trade value is diminishing.  I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball.  I also think Rondo is good and could help the right team (such as the Lakers or Houston or even Detroit).  I think the best outcome for all would be a good draft day trade where Rondo goes to a team that is better suited to Rondo's talents and we get a fair package of young players and picks.

You say this VermontGreen:  "I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball."  How do you KNOW this or have any proof to think this?  Name ONE NBA player to come back from ACL reconstruction and be more than a +15 player in PER less than 14-15 months after the surgery.  I will accept ONE example, but would certainly prefer MORE than one.  Rose was around a +10 coming back OVER 16 months after surgery, prior to getting hurt again this year. 

I would love to see some examples Vermont Green. 

Smitty77

First, I said "I think", not "I KNOW" because there is no way to know.  Some athletes come back from knee surgery and play great (Adrian Peterson), others have difficulty including recurrences (Derrick Rose).  Since it is impossible to know what is going on with Rondo's knee, I have to base my opinion on what I see of his play on the court.  Based on what I see, it is my opinion that he looks fine physically/athletically and I don't expect that an offseason is going to result in any meaningful leap in his production or ability.

Are you suggesting that "you KNOW" the condition of his knee?  Can you give examples of something you see on the court that suggests he is favoring his knee or that athleticism is limited?  I don't begrudge you the point that someone could watch the game and come to a different opinion but I would challenge you if you feel you "know" any more than I "know".

I challenged YOU to give me ONE example of a player that went thru ACL reconstruction and was near a +15 PER within 14-15 months of the surgery date.  You gave me NO examples.  Peterson plays football and had a remarkable recovery.  I just want ONE NBA player as an example.  I really want MORE than one, but will actually SETTLE for one.

You, nor I, have ANY idea how Rondo is feeling about his knee.  The FACT that Rondo is average 9.7 assists on THIS offensively challenged team is astonishing to me, this quickly after his ACL surgery.  Sure, he is not expending too much energy on the defensive side, but why would he risk re-injury to make a defensive stop or two when we are, if truth be told, TRYING to LOSE games??  What incentive does Rondo have to give 110% on defense, as he has NOTHING to prove, except to people like you (and he could really care less what you and others think of him!!!). 

Others have noticed Rondo seemingly limping or favoring his unrepaired leg, and I will defer to them, as they have more than likely seen more Celtics' games this year than have I.  I only have NBATV, and not the League Pass, this year.  Therefore, I defer to others (including yourself if you have league pass) regarding IF RR is 100%.  I think Rondo recently said he was "getting CLOSE to 100%!"  Even those seeing more games than I have really have NO idea.  Only Rondo and likely his doctor truly know how that knee is doing.

Smitty77

[indeedproceed]

What incentive does Rondo have to give 110% on defense, as he has NOTHING to prove, except to people like you (and he could really care less what you and others think of him!!!). 

Ideally the fact that he's paid upwards of $11 million dollars and the notion that he's a tough competitor that can't stand losing would be enough incentive to give at least 100% on a fairly frequent basis.

Not that guys don't take off nights, don't get demoralized on losing teams, and such. Just the notion that somehow he needs incentive to play defense is a bit gross. If losing games is enough of a reason for people to condone or excuse Rondo giving less than his all, why should we expect any of the guys to give it 100%? He's supposed to be the leader, and if that's how things are, its leading by terrible example.

That said, I'm not worried about Rondo, don't care about this controversy. Just the logic there is a bit wrong to me.

[indeedproceed]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho. 

Thoughts?

  LA Clippers this year with Paul 42-18 .700 without Paul 13-6 .684

  Why don't you explain exactly what you think the Clips having a virtually identical winning percentage with and without Chris Paul says about his play and his impact on the team and then we can figure out what it's supposed to mean about Rondo.

This is one of those questions you really can't answer without speculation aiding your own agenda (the impersonal 'you', not you, Tim, I mean anyone). If you wanted to discredit Rondo, you could say some pap about Paul's leadership even on the bench setting a strong example. If you wanted to support Rondo, you could say some stuff about overall talent on the team and a culture of accountability and winning fostered by Doc and faith from management.

[Tr1boy]

What incentive does Rondo have to give 110% on defense, as he has NOTHING to prove, except to people like you (and he could really care less what you and others think of him!!!). 

Ideally the fact that he's paid upwards of $11 million dollars and the notion that he's a tough competitor that can't stand losing would be enough incentive to give at least 100% on a fairly frequent basis.

Not that guys don't take off nights, don't get demoralized on losing teams, and such. Just the notion that somehow he needs incentive to play defense is a bit gross. If losing games is enough of a reason for people to condone or excuse Rondo giving less than his all, why should we expect any of the guys to give it 100%? He's supposed to be the leader, and if that's how things are, its leading by terrible example.

That said, I'm not worried about Rondo, don't care about this controversy. Just the logic there is a bit wrong to me.

exactly. Why even comeback to play if your going to play like crap? Just sit out the rest of the year then.

Real games shouldn't be used as platforms to practice your game or mess around. You play to win.

[Donoghus]

What incentive does Rondo have to give 110% on defense, as he has NOTHING to prove, except to people like you (and he could really care less what you and others think of him!!!). 

Ideally the fact that he's paid upwards of $11 million dollars and the notion that he's a tough competitor that can't stand losing would be enough incentive to give at least 100% on a fairly frequent basis.

Not that guys don't take off nights, don't get demoralized on losing teams, and such. Just the notion that somehow he needs incentive to play defense is a bit gross. If losing games is enough of a reason for people to condone or excuse Rondo giving less than his all, why should we expect any of the guys to give it 100%? He's supposed to be the leader, and if that's how things are, its leading by terrible example.

That said, I'm not worried about Rondo, don't care about this controversy. Just the logic there is a bit wrong to me.

exactly. Why even comeback to play if your going to play like crap? Just sit out the rest of the year then.

Real games shouldn't be used as platforms to practice your game or mess around. You play to win.

You think someone knows that they're going to play like crap when they come back or not?  Coming off ACL surgery?  You have to be kidding me.  That's nonsense.

He has to come back at some point.  It's called rehabilitation and all the practice in the world isn't going to substitute for actual games.  That's why he's playing in actual games right now.

I can also guarantee that Stevens is working different sets out there with Rondo this time of year to see what works & what doesn't.    Sure, winning is the ultimate end goal but these games can also be used for experimentation and help start to set the foundation for what you have next season.

[Smitty77]

What incentive does Rondo have to give 110% on defense, as he has NOTHING to prove, except to people like you (and he could really care less what you and others think of him!!!). 

Ideally the fact that he's paid upwards of $11 million dollars and the notion that he's a tough competitor that can't stand losing would be enough incentive to give at least 100% on a fairly frequent basis.

Not that guys don't take off nights, don't get demoralized on losing teams, and such. Just the notion that somehow he needs incentive to play defense is a bit gross. If losing games is enough of a reason for people to condone or excuse Rondo giving less than his all, why should we expect any of the guys to give it 100%? He's supposed to be the leader, and if that's how things are, its leading by terrible example.

That said, I'm not worried about Rondo, don't care about this controversy. Just the logic there is a bit wrong to me.

exactly. Why even comeback to play if your going to play like crap? Just sit out the rest of the year then.

Real games shouldn't be used as platforms to practice your game or mess around. You play to win.

You think someone knows that they're going to play like crap when they come back or not?  Coming off ACL surgery?  You have to be kidding me.  That's nonsense.

He has to come back at some point.  It's called rehabilitation and all the practice in the world isn't going to substitute for actual games.  That's why he's playing in actual games right now.

I can also guarantee that Stevens is working different sets out there with Rondo this time of year to see what works & what doesn't.    Sure, winning is the ultimate end goal but these games can also be used for experimentation and help start to set the foundation for what you have next season.

The logic may seem flawed, but the fact remains that I am waiting for someone, anyone, to tell me an NBA player that has come back in this time frame and in this number of games following an ACL reconstruction that has had an over 15 PER so quickly.  I don't think RR is taking nights off on offense, but he is likely NOT giving 100% on defense and going for steals and taking charges like he will likely do next year and in following years post-rehab.

Smitty77

I am not arguing with you Donoghus:-)))  I think WE are mostly on the same page.  I wasn't clear about defining RR not giving 100%.  I think he is giving close to 100% effort on offense EXCEPT for driving dangerously to the hole like he used to do.

[BballTim]

What incentive does Rondo have to give 110% on defense, as he has NOTHING to prove, except to people like you (and he could really care less what you and others think of him!!!). 

Ideally the fact that he's paid upwards of $11 million dollars and the notion that he's a tough competitor that can't stand losing would be enough incentive to give at least 100% on a fairly frequent basis.

Not that guys don't take off nights, don't get demoralized on losing teams, and such. Just the notion that somehow he needs incentive to play defense is a bit gross. If losing games is enough of a reason for people to condone or excuse Rondo giving less than his all, why should we expect any of the guys to give it 100%? He's supposed to be the leader, and if that's how things are, its leading by terrible example.

That said, I'm not worried about Rondo, don't care about this controversy. Just the logic there is a bit wrong to me.

exactly. Why even comeback to play if your going to play like crap? Just sit out the rest of the year then.

Real games shouldn't be used as platforms to practice your game or mess around. You play to win.

  So KG should have waited until 2012 or so to come back from his knee injury?

[LarBrd33]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho. 

Thoughts?

6-23 with rondo.  19-32 without him.

Fascinating.

[pokeKingCurtis]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho. 

Thoughts?

6-23 with rondo.  19-32 without him.

Fascinating.

Gotta sneak in that last word.

NOW I HAVE THE LAST WORD!