Bill Simmons on Rondo

[quidinqui33]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho. 

Thoughts?

6-23 with rondo.  19-32 without him.

Fascinating.

I think it's worth noting that we almost had a winning record before trading Crawford. Jordan fricken Crawford was our starting pg and we were a playoff team in a weak east.   I've always loved rondo, and love his competitiveness, but his inability to want to score the ball is crippling to an offense. With three hof, it may have worked, but moving forward, it really may be time to send him to situation better suited for him (Houston is a good option) and try to get fair value in return.

Double digit assist averages are nice, but it i am craving to have a pg that is willing to put the pressure on defenses by penetrating and having scoring the ball and/or drawing a foul be a legitimate option in addition to the kick out.

[pokeKingCurtis]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho. 

Thoughts?

6-23 with rondo.  19-32 without him.

Fascinating.

I think it's worth noting that we almost had a winning record before trading Crawford. Jordan fricken Crawford was our starting pg and we were a playoff team in a weak east.   I've always loved rondo, and love his competitiveness, but his inability to want to score the ball is crippling to an offense. With three hof, it may have worked, but moving forward, it really may be time to send him to situation better suited for him (Houston is a good option) and try to get fair value in return.

Double digit assist averages are nice, but it i am craving to have a pg that is willing to put the pressure on defenses by penetrating and having scoring the ball and/or drawing a foul be a legitimate option in addition to the kick out.

Is Rondo the only variable, though?

The biggest issue, in my opinion, is that the team is burned out. The Lee and Craw trades hurt morale. Sully's hand injury slowed things down. AB's absence hurt. (Oh, hey, Gerald Wallace too) (And Pressey was injured for a while) (AND KELLY TOO).

Now you have Joel Anthony all awkward. You have Bogans in a bad situation. This is on top of the fact that we have too many PFs.

Again, don't think we've had more than 5 games with the same starting lineup since the J-Craw trade.

We've won quite a few close games. I think taking the wind out of the sails turned many of the close wins to close losses.

Some have called out Brad Stevens's offense - maybe it could stand to improve. But had it not been for all the turmoil, I think we would have kept it together a little better despite teams gearing up for the playoffs and having more footage of us to scout.

[LarBrd33]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho. 

Thoughts?

6-23 with rondo.  19-32 without him.

Fascinating.

I think it's worth noting that we almost had a winning record before trading Crawford. Jordan fricken Crawford was our starting pg and we were a playoff team in a weak east.   I've always loved rondo, and love his competitiveness, but his inability to want to score the ball is crippling to an offense. With three hof, it may have worked, but moving forward, it really may be time to send him to situation better suited for him (Houston is a good option) and try to get fair value in return.

Double digit assist averages are nice, but it i am craving to have a pg that is willing to put the pressure on defenses by penetrating and having scoring the ball and/or drawing a foul be a legitimate option in addition to the kick out.

Is Rondo the only variable, though?

The biggest issue, in my opinion, is that the team is burned out. The Lee and Craw trades hurt morale. Sully's hand injury slowed things down. AB's absence hurt. (Oh, hey, Gerald Wallace too) (And Pressey was injured for a while) (AND KELLY TOO).

Now you have Joel Anthony all awkward. You have Bogans in a bad situation. This is on top of the fact that we have too many PFs.

Again, don't think we've had more than 5 games with the same starting lineup since the J-Craw trade.

We've won quite a few close games. I think taking the wind out of the sails turned many of the close wins to close losses.

Some have called out Brad Stevens's offense - maybe it could stand to improve. But had it not been for all the turmoil, I think we would have kept it together a little better despite teams gearing up for the playoffs and having more footage of us to scout.

I honestly think it's understood that this season was a wash.  Let Rondo go out and do Rondo things... get back to being Rondo.  Don't worry about this season... just get him ready for next year.  I also think that there are several sitting ducks on this team... I'll point to Jeff Green and Bass.  I doubt those guys are here next year.  I think we'll carve out a bigger role for Sully and Oly (and our pick).  I think there will potentially be significant trades.  I think Danny knows that.  I think Stevens knows that.  I think Rondo knows that.  So with that in mind, I don't think a ton of time has been spent really honing in and polishing the system.  Considering that Rondo has played off-and-on during a short section of the season, I don't think the players have had a chance to really even get into a consistent flow and rhythm.  So honestly, I don't read too much into the win/loss struggles.  It's more just interesting that both last year and this year, the team has adapted and played more "natural" ball-sharing basketball when Rondo sat.  It's resulted in a higher percentage of wins. 

Still, I think Rondo is a really quality player and with the right system and teammates, he can flourish.   We've seen him play effective basketball alongside the big 3.    Glad he's had a chance to work out his post-injury kinks in a low-pressure environment where mistakes and losses have been borderline encouraged. 

[Mr Green]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho.

Thoughts?

Hypocrit is my thought.   I thought you wanted us to tank?  Shouldn't you be happy with the results?

I don't get this response at all.  The first post included some of the most basic, incontrovertible stats that there could be.  Over 2 seasons (and it is actually 3 if you go back one more season) our team record is better without Rondo playing.  For the portion of last season where we were winning less with Rondo, he was setting records for assists (but I guess he would play even better if it were the playoffs).  You can draw any conclusion you want from that but it is hard to rationally conclude that Rondo makes all the other players better.

You can craft counter arguments, last season PP and KG got healthier at the same time Rondo got injured, Rondo only plays his best in the playoffs, our schedule is easier when Rondo was injured, Rondo is tanking on purpose this year more than other players are tanking.  But calling it hypocritical?  That I don't get.

I believe Rondo is over rated and his trade value is diminishing.  I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball.  I also think Rondo is good and could help the right team (such as the Lakers or Houston or even Detroit).  I think the best outcome for all would be a good draft day trade where Rondo goes to a team that is better suited to Rondo's talents and we get a fair package of young players and picks.

You say this VermontGreen:  "I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball."  How do you KNOW this or have any proof to think this?  Name ONE NBA player to come back from ACL reconstruction and be more than a +15 player in PER less than 14-15 months after the surgery.  I will accept ONE example, but would certainly prefer MORE than one.  Rose was around a +10 coming back OVER 16 months after surgery, prior to getting hurt again this year. 

I would love to see some examples Vermont Green. 

Smitty77

First, I said "I think", not "I KNOW" because there is no way to know.  Some athletes come back from knee surgery and play great (Adrian Peterson), others have difficulty including recurrences (Derrick Rose).  Since it is impossible to know what is going on with Rondo's knee, I have to base my opinion on what I see of his play on the court.  Based on what I see, it is my opinion that he looks fine physically/athletically and I don't expect that an offseason is going to result in any meaningful leap in his production or ability.

Are you suggesting that "you KNOW" the condition of his knee?  Can you give examples of something you see on the court that suggests he is favoring his knee or that athleticism is limited?  I don't begrudge you the point that someone could watch the game and come to a different opinion but I would challenge you if you feel you "know" any more than I "know".

I challenged YOU to give me ONE example of a player that went thru ACL reconstruction and was near a +15 PER within 14-15 months of the surgery date.  You gave me NO examples.  Peterson plays football and had a remarkable recovery.  I just want ONE NBA player as an example.  I really want MORE than one, but will actually SETTLE for one.

You, nor I, have ANY idea how Rondo is feeling about his knee.  The FACT that Rondo is average 9.7 assists on THIS offensively challenged team is astonishing to me, this quickly after his ACL surgery.  Sure, he is not expending too much energy on the defensive side, but why would he risk re-injury to make a defensive stop or two when we are, if truth be told, TRYING to LOSE games??  What incentive does Rondo have to give 110% on defense, as he has NOTHING to prove, except to people like you (and he could really care less what you and others think of him!!!). 

Others have noticed Rondo seemingly limping or favoring his unrepaired leg, and I will defer to them, as they have more than likely seen more Celtics' games this year than have I.  I only have NBATV, and not the League Pass, this year.  Therefore, I defer to others (including yourself if you have league pass) regarding IF RR is 100%.  I think Rondo recently said he was "getting CLOSE to 100%!"  Even those seeing more games than I have really have NO idea.  Only Rondo and likely his doctor truly know how that knee is doing.

Smitty77

David West.

[Smitty77]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho.

Thoughts?

Hypocrit is my thought.   I thought you wanted us to tank?  Shouldn't you be happy with the results?

I don't get this response at all.  The first post included some of the most basic, incontrovertible stats that there could be.  Over 2 seasons (and it is actually 3 if you go back one more season) our team record is better without Rondo playing.  For the portion of last season where we were winning less with Rondo, he was setting records for assists (but I guess he would play even better if it were the playoffs).  You can draw any conclusion you want from that but it is hard to rationally conclude that Rondo makes all the other players better.

You can craft counter arguments, last season PP and KG got healthier at the same time Rondo got injured, Rondo only plays his best in the playoffs, our schedule is easier when Rondo was injured, Rondo is tanking on purpose this year more than other players are tanking.  But calling it hypocritical?  That I don't get.

I believe Rondo is over rated and his trade value is diminishing.  I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball.  I also think Rondo is good and could help the right team (such as the Lakers or Houston or even Detroit).  I think the best outcome for all would be a good draft day trade where Rondo goes to a team that is better suited to Rondo's talents and we get a fair package of young players and picks.

You say this VermontGreen:  "I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball."  How do you KNOW this or have any proof to think this?  Name ONE NBA player to come back from ACL reconstruction and be more than a +15 player in PER less than 14-15 months after the surgery.  I will accept ONE example, but would certainly prefer MORE than one.  Rose was around a +10 coming back OVER 16 months after surgery, prior to getting hurt again this year. 

I would love to see some examples Vermont Green. 

Smitty77

First, I said "I think", not "I KNOW" because there is no way to know.  Some athletes come back from knee surgery and play great (Adrian Peterson), others have difficulty including recurrences (Derrick Rose).  Since it is impossible to know what is going on with Rondo's knee, I have to base my opinion on what I see of his play on the court.  Based on what I see, it is my opinion that he looks fine physically/athletically and I don't expect that an offseason is going to result in any meaningful leap in his production or ability.

Are you suggesting that "you KNOW" the condition of his knee?  Can you give examples of something you see on the court that suggests he is favoring his knee or that athleticism is limited?  I don't begrudge you the point that someone could watch the game and come to a different opinion but I would challenge you if you feel you "know" any more than I "know".

I challenged YOU to give me ONE example of a player that went thru ACL reconstruction and was near a +15 PER within 14-15 months of the surgery date.  You gave me NO examples.  Peterson plays football and had a remarkable recovery.  I just want ONE NBA player as an example.  I really want MORE than one, but will actually SETTLE for one.

You, nor I, have ANY idea how Rondo is feeling about his knee.  The FACT that Rondo is average 9.7 assists on THIS offensively challenged team is astonishing to me, this quickly after his ACL surgery.  Sure, he is not expending too much energy on the defensive side, but why would he risk re-injury to make a defensive stop or two when we are, if truth be told, TRYING to LOSE games??  What incentive does Rondo have to give 110% on defense, as he has NOTHING to prove, except to people like you (and he could really care less what you and others think of him!!!). 

Others have noticed Rondo seemingly limping or favoring his unrepaired leg, and I will defer to them, as they have more than likely seen more Celtics' games this year than have I.  I only have NBATV, and not the League Pass, this year.  Therefore, I defer to others (including yourself if you have league pass) regarding IF RR is 100%.  I think Rondo recently said he was "getting CLOSE to 100%!"  Even those seeing more games than I have really have NO idea.  Only Rondo and likely his doctor truly know how that knee is doing.

Smitty77

David West.

His points per game went from 18 DOWN to 13!!!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1177651-10-nba-players-that-suffered-torn-acls-and-recovered-better-than-ever/page/5

Smitty77

[LilRip]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho.

Thoughts?

Hypocrit is my thought.   I thought you wanted us to tank?  Shouldn't you be happy with the results?

I don't get this response at all.  The first post included some of the most basic, incontrovertible stats that there could be.  Over 2 seasons (and it is actually 3 if you go back one more season) our team record is better without Rondo playing.  For the portion of last season where we were winning less with Rondo, he was setting records for assists (but I guess he would play even better if it were the playoffs).  You can draw any conclusion you want from that but it is hard to rationally conclude that Rondo makes all the other players better.

You can craft counter arguments, last season PP and KG got healthier at the same time Rondo got injured, Rondo only plays his best in the playoffs, our schedule is easier when Rondo was injured, Rondo is tanking on purpose this year more than other players are tanking.  But calling it hypocritical?  That I don't get.

I believe Rondo is over rated and his trade value is diminishing.  I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball.  I also think Rondo is good and could help the right team (such as the Lakers or Houston or even Detroit).  I think the best outcome for all would be a good draft day trade where Rondo goes to a team that is better suited to Rondo's talents and we get a fair package of young players and picks.

You say this VermontGreen:  "I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball."  How do you KNOW this or have any proof to think this?  Name ONE NBA player to come back from ACL reconstruction and be more than a +15 player in PER less than 14-15 months after the surgery.  I will accept ONE example, but would certainly prefer MORE than one.  Rose was around a +10 coming back OVER 16 months after surgery, prior to getting hurt again this year. 

I would love to see some examples Vermont Green. 

Smitty77

First, I said "I think", not "I KNOW" because there is no way to know.  Some athletes come back from knee surgery and play great (Adrian Peterson), others have difficulty including recurrences (Derrick Rose).  Since it is impossible to know what is going on with Rondo's knee, I have to base my opinion on what I see of his play on the court.  Based on what I see, it is my opinion that he looks fine physically/athletically and I don't expect that an offseason is going to result in any meaningful leap in his production or ability.

Are you suggesting that "you KNOW" the condition of his knee?  Can you give examples of something you see on the court that suggests he is favoring his knee or that athleticism is limited?  I don't begrudge you the point that someone could watch the game and come to a different opinion but I would challenge you if you feel you "know" any more than I "know".

I challenged YOU to give me ONE example of a player that went thru ACL reconstruction and was near a +15 PER within 14-15 months of the surgery date.  You gave me NO examples.  Peterson plays football and had a remarkable recovery.  I just want ONE NBA player as an example.  I really want MORE than one, but will actually SETTLE for one.

You, nor I, have ANY idea how Rondo is feeling about his knee.  The FACT that Rondo is average 9.7 assists on THIS offensively challenged team is astonishing to me, this quickly after his ACL surgery.  Sure, he is not expending too much energy on the defensive side, but why would he risk re-injury to make a defensive stop or two when we are, if truth be told, TRYING to LOSE games??  What incentive does Rondo have to give 110% on defense, as he has NOTHING to prove, except to people like you (and he could really care less what you and others think of him!!!). 

Others have noticed Rondo seemingly limping or favoring his unrepaired leg, and I will defer to them, as they have more than likely seen more Celtics' games this year than have I.  I only have NBATV, and not the League Pass, this year.  Therefore, I defer to others (including yourself if you have league pass) regarding IF RR is 100%.  I think Rondo recently said he was "getting CLOSE to 100%!"  Even those seeing more games than I have really have NO idea.  Only Rondo and likely his doctor truly know how that knee is doing.

Smitty77

David West.

His points per game went from 18 DOWN to 13!!!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1177651-10-nba-players-that-suffered-torn-acls-and-recovered-better-than-ever/page/5

Smitty77

i don't understand your challenge then. i thought you wanted 15+ PER and David West registered a PER of 18. Lower than his previous year (when he registered a PER of 20), but 18 is still above the 15 threshold you set.

Now you're complaining about his PPG, while disregarding that he went from the Hornets (a team that featured only CP3) where West led his team in USG, to being an offseason acquisition for the Pacers (a team that already featured Danny Granger, Roy Hibbert and a just-blossoming Paul George) where West ended up only 4th in USG on that team.

[BballTim]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho. 

Thoughts?

  LA Clippers this year with Paul 42-18 .700 without Paul 13-6 .684

  Why don't you explain exactly what you think the Clips having a virtually identical winning percentage with and without Chris Paul says about his play and his impact on the team and then we can figure out what it's supposed to mean about Rondo.

This is one of those questions you really can't answer without speculation aiding your own agenda (the impersonal 'you', not you, Tim, I mean anyone). If you wanted to discredit Rondo, you could say some pap about Paul's leadership even on the bench setting a strong example. If you wanted to support Rondo, you could say some stuff about overall talent on the team and a culture of accountability and winning fostered by Doc and faith from management.

  That's true, but only in the case where you can't take a broader view of the situation and realize that if your argument sounds preposterous when it's applied to players that you favor then it's probably not a great argument to be making. I think that the authors of the bulk of the criticisms about Rondo would be incredulous if they read similar posts about any other player in their 20s that's a regular at the all-star game.

[celtsfan44]

Rondo should be dealt.   He is a poor fit with this team moving forward and especially Stevens ball that stresses ball movement and shooting.   Why even hire Stevens to have Rondo pound the ball?  Rondo needs to be on a team with 2-3 star scorers to better hide his deficiencies.    Celtics have none and paying Rondo will make it tougher to get these needed scorers.

Al Jefferson, Danny Manning and Bonzi Wells all put up 15+ PER seasons the first season back from ACL tears.

Rondo may improve a bit next year but in general players do not perform better their 2nd season back from ACL surgery.   Some players do but many do not.   

Figure Rondo's performance is somewhere halfway between this year and 2012-13.

That isn't nearly good enough for the money he will want nor is it good enough to win with him being one of the top 3 players on the team.   

[Smitty77]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho.

Thoughts?

Hypocrit is my thought.   I thought you wanted us to tank?  Shouldn't you be happy with the results?

I don't get this response at all.  The first post included some of the most basic, incontrovertible stats that there could be.  Over 2 seasons (and it is actually 3 if you go back one more season) our team record is better without Rondo playing.  For the portion of last season where we were winning less with Rondo, he was setting records for assists (but I guess he would play even better if it were the playoffs).  You can draw any conclusion you want from that but it is hard to rationally conclude that Rondo makes all the other players better.

You can craft counter arguments, last season PP and KG got healthier at the same time Rondo got injured, Rondo only plays his best in the playoffs, our schedule is easier when Rondo was injured, Rondo is tanking on purpose this year more than other players are tanking.  But calling it hypocritical?  That I don't get.

I believe Rondo is over rated and his trade value is diminishing.  I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball.  I also think Rondo is good and could help the right team (such as the Lakers or Houston or even Detroit).  I think the best outcome for all would be a good draft day trade where Rondo goes to a team that is better suited to Rondo's talents and we get a fair package of young players and picks.

You say this VermontGreen:  "I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball."  How do you KNOW this or have any proof to think this?  Name ONE NBA player to come back from ACL reconstruction and be more than a +15 player in PER less than 14-15 months after the surgery.  I will accept ONE example, but would certainly prefer MORE than one.  Rose was around a +10 coming back OVER 16 months after surgery, prior to getting hurt again this year. 

I would love to see some examples Vermont Green. 

Smitty77

First, I said "I think", not "I KNOW" because there is no way to know.  Some athletes come back from knee surgery and play great (Adrian Peterson), others have difficulty including recurrences (Derrick Rose).  Since it is impossible to know what is going on with Rondo's knee, I have to base my opinion on what I see of his play on the court.  Based on what I see, it is my opinion that he looks fine physically/athletically and I don't expect that an offseason is going to result in any meaningful leap in his production or ability.

Are you suggesting that "you KNOW" the condition of his knee?  Can you give examples of something you see on the court that suggests he is favoring his knee or that athleticism is limited?  I don't begrudge you the point that someone could watch the game and come to a different opinion but I would challenge you if you feel you "know" any more than I "know".

I challenged YOU to give me ONE example of a player that went thru ACL reconstruction and was near a +15 PER within 14-15 months of the surgery date.  You gave me NO examples.  Peterson plays football and had a remarkable recovery.  I just want ONE NBA player as an example.  I really want MORE than one, but will actually SETTLE for one.

You, nor I, have ANY idea how Rondo is feeling about his knee.  The FACT that Rondo is average 9.7 assists on THIS offensively challenged team is astonishing to me, this quickly after his ACL surgery.  Sure, he is not expending too much energy on the defensive side, but why would he risk re-injury to make a defensive stop or two when we are, if truth be told, TRYING to LOSE games??  What incentive does Rondo have to give 110% on defense, as he has NOTHING to prove, except to people like you (and he could really care less what you and others think of him!!!). 

Others have noticed Rondo seemingly limping or favoring his unrepaired leg, and I will defer to them, as they have more than likely seen more Celtics' games this year than have I.  I only have NBATV, and not the League Pass, this year.  Therefore, I defer to others (including yourself if you have league pass) regarding IF RR is 100%.  I think Rondo recently said he was "getting CLOSE to 100%!"  Even those seeing more games than I have really have NO idea.  Only Rondo and likely his doctor truly know how that knee is doing.

Smitty77

David West.

His points per game went from 18 DOWN to 13!!!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1177651-10-nba-players-that-suffered-torn-acls-and-recovered-better-than-ever/page/5

Smitty77

i don't understand your challenge then. i thought you wanted 15+ PER and David West registered a PER of 18. Lower than his previous year (when he registered a PER of 20), but 18 is still above the 15 threshold you set.

Now you're complaining about his PPG, while disregarding that he went from the Hornets (a team that featured only CP3) where West led his team in USG, to being an offseason acquisition for the Pacers (a team that already featured Danny Granger, Roy Hibbert and a just-blossoming Paul George) where West ended up only 4th in USG on that team.

Were do you find his PER for that year when he averaged only 13 points per game??  Please share the link with me.

Thanks,

Smitty77

[Smitty77]

Rondo should be dealt.   He is a poor fit with this team moving forward and especially Stevens ball that stresses ball movement and shooting.   Why even hire Stevens to have Rondo pound the ball?  Rondo needs to be on a team with 2-3 star scorers to better hide his deficiencies.    Celtics have none and paying Rondo will make it tougher to get these needed scorers.

Al Jefferson, Danny Manning and Bonzi Wells all put up 15+ PER seasons the first season back from ACL tears.

Rondo may improve a bit next year but in general players do not perform better their 2nd season back from ACL surgery.   Some players do but many do not.   

Figure Rondo's performance is somewhere halfway between this year and 2012-13.

That isn't nearly good enough for the money he will want nor is it good enough to win with him being one of the top 3 players on the team.

Please show me the link where you got this info about their PER.  Also, two of those are BIG men and Bonzi was a SF I believe.  NONE of these are PG's, correct?  Please share the link.

You said this:  "in general players do not perform better their 2nd season back from ACL surgery.   Some players do but many do not."  Please provide data supporting this.

Thanks,

Smitty

[Mr Green]

This year:  6-23 (.206) with Rondo...   18-32 (.360) without him.

Last year:  20-23 (.465) with Rondo... 21-17 (.552) without him.

... but those assists, tho.

Thoughts?

Hypocrit is my thought.   I thought you wanted us to tank?  Shouldn't you be happy with the results?

I don't get this response at all.  The first post included some of the most basic, incontrovertible stats that there could be.  Over 2 seasons (and it is actually 3 if you go back one more season) our team record is better without Rondo playing.  For the portion of last season where we were winning less with Rondo, he was setting records for assists (but I guess he would play even better if it were the playoffs).  You can draw any conclusion you want from that but it is hard to rationally conclude that Rondo makes all the other players better.

You can craft counter arguments, last season PP and KG got healthier at the same time Rondo got injured, Rondo only plays his best in the playoffs, our schedule is easier when Rondo was injured, Rondo is tanking on purpose this year more than other players are tanking.  But calling it hypocritical?  That I don't get.

I believe Rondo is over rated and his trade value is diminishing.  I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball.  I also think Rondo is good and could help the right team (such as the Lakers or Houston or even Detroit).  I think the best outcome for all would be a good draft day trade where Rondo goes to a team that is better suited to Rondo's talents and we get a fair package of young players and picks.

You say this VermontGreen:  "I think he is plenty healthy to play his best basketball."  How do you KNOW this or have any proof to think this?  Name ONE NBA player to come back from ACL reconstruction and be more than a +15 player in PER less than 14-15 months after the surgery.  I will accept ONE example, but would certainly prefer MORE than one.  Rose was around a +10 coming back OVER 16 months after surgery, prior to getting hurt again this year. 

I would love to see some examples Vermont Green. 

Smitty77

First, I said "I think", not "I KNOW" because there is no way to know.  Some athletes come back from knee surgery and play great (Adrian Peterson), others have difficulty including recurrences (Derrick Rose).  Since it is impossible to know what is going on with Rondo's knee, I have to base my opinion on what I see of his play on the court.  Based on what I see, it is my opinion that he looks fine physically/athletically and I don't expect that an offseason is going to result in any meaningful leap in his production or ability.

Are you suggesting that "you KNOW" the condition of his knee?  Can you give examples of something you see on the court that suggests he is favoring his knee or that athleticism is limited?  I don't begrudge you the point that someone could watch the game and come to a different opinion but I would challenge you if you feel you "know" any more than I "know".

I challenged YOU to give me ONE example of a player that went thru ACL reconstruction and was near a +15 PER within 14-15 months of the surgery date.  You gave me NO examples.  Peterson plays football and had a remarkable recovery.  I just want ONE NBA player as an example.  I really want MORE than one, but will actually SETTLE for one.

You, nor I, have ANY idea how Rondo is feeling about his knee.  The FACT that Rondo is average 9.7 assists on THIS offensively challenged team is astonishing to me, this quickly after his ACL surgery.  Sure, he is not expending too much energy on the defensive side, but why would he risk re-injury to make a defensive stop or two when we are, if truth be told, TRYING to LOSE games??  What incentive does Rondo have to give 110% on defense, as he has NOTHING to prove, except to people like you (and he could really care less what you and others think of him!!!). 

Others have noticed Rondo seemingly limping or favoring his unrepaired leg, and I will defer to them, as they have more than likely seen more Celtics' games this year than have I.  I only have NBATV, and not the League Pass, this year.  Therefore, I defer to others (including yourself if you have league pass) regarding IF RR is 100%.  I think Rondo recently said he was "getting CLOSE to 100%!"  Even those seeing more games than I have really have NO idea.  Only Rondo and likely his doctor truly know how that knee is doing.

Smitty77

David West.

His points per game went from 18 DOWN to 13!!!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1177651-10-nba-players-that-suffered-torn-acls-and-recovered-better-than-ever/page/5

Smitty77

i don't understand your challenge then. i thought you wanted 15+ PER and David West registered a PER of 18. Lower than his previous year (when he registered a PER of 20), but 18 is still above the 15 threshold you set.

Now you're complaining about his PPG, while disregarding that he went from the Hornets (a team that featured only CP3) where West led his team in USG, to being an offseason acquisition for the Pacers (a team that already featured Danny Granger, Roy Hibbert and a just-blossoming Paul George) where West ended up only 4th in USG on that team.

Were do you find his PER for that year when he averaged only 13 points per game??  Please share the link with me.

Thanks,

Smitty77

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westda01.html

[PhoSita]

Sheesh, guys, take it easy with the nested quotes.

[Fafnir]

Sheesh, guys, take it easy with the nested quotes.

Yeah I'm going to start chainsaw editing if necessary, impossible to read atm.

[Q_FBE]

Sorry, it has been a while since I posted. I am not sure what I think of this Rondo debate. I know he is looking for a near max extension with the Celtics but as of now, he has not earned it. Perhaps he wants out of here and he will get his wish on draft night, particularly if Danny takes Dante Exum who appears to be a dynamite future PG in this league. Still Danny needs to make a big time move with Rondo or auction him off for assets at the next trading deadline (assuming we pick 7th or 8th and end up with BPA Marcus Smart who might not play up to us last name) and we go through a 2nd rebuilding season. Realistically, Danny needed to blow the team up after the 2012 season but he didn't have the heart to do that to Doc, KG, and Pierce.

There is a lot of uncertainty with the Celtics right now (just like there is a lot of uncertainty with my engineering career being ruthlessly jerked around by corporate manangement). I guess I have to hope for the best.

[nzea]

Perfect storm for a Celtics win..tonight

No Walker for Bobcats......this doomed them.
Celtics don't have Rondo....who I think is tanking at least on personal level to get talent on this cruddy team

The rest of the Celtics shot lights out . 

Pressey is playing for his life, a contract , everything......we wants to make it in the NBA .

Even if costs the Celtics future talent needed to contend one day

Stevens ...is wrong thinking he can coach any group of NBA talent to a title......maybe in College , not in the NBA where there are LeBrons around.

He is stubborn .....Rondo , Joel , Babb should have played to ensure a loss.

Danny ..probably wants to tank
Rondo.....wants to tank
Stevens .....thinks sitting a few players tarnishes his reputation ..... .....he ain't tanking at all ....not even a little bit .....during the last games to help us get a better draft choice.

Everybody is NOT on the same page on this rebuild

Rondo will leave .....Stevens is being hardheaded .....Danny a man of his word not to make him sit players.....

So there it is .....a screwed up mess.

Yes, we should sit players when the league is looking for evidence of tanking. That could cost us the pick. Steven's sin;t being hardheaded but he'll lose the respect of everybody in the league if he legitimately starts tanking.