Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?

[StartOrien]

Chris Paul camps in the passing lanes, that doesn't make him the best defensive PG.  He gets steals, but not in a Tony Allen-like fashion.  Other than his impressive steal numbers, I don't see any reason that would support your opinion, and definitely nothing that would make it more credible than the head coaches' opinions that voted Rondo for the past 2 years.

If you put the name "Rondo" where you had "Paul", you'd be equally correct.

Ugh, ya, I was ready to let this one go. But then I saw that:

You can argue that Rondo defends the way he does because he's had KG and Perk behind him, but let's not pretend that he doesn't exactly fit the description your provided above.

[BballTim]

Chris Paul camps in the passing lanes, that doesn't make him the best defensive PG.  He gets steals, but not in a Tony Allen-like fashion.  Other than his impressive steal numbers, I don't see any reason that would support your opinion, and definitely nothing that would make it more credible than the head coaches' opinions that voted Rondo for the past 2 years.

If you put the name "Rondo" where you had "Paul", you'd be equally correct.

Rajon Rondo played most of his career in front of KG and Perkins. That advantage alone allows him to be a much much better defender.

Besides, Kyle Lowry is the best defensive PG in the NBA right meow.

  Rondo's been voted the best or among the best perimeter and on the ball defender in the league in the nba's gm surveys. It's not all Perk and KG. He was also a very good defender his rookie year when Perk was struggling with injuries and KG was toiling away in Minny.

[ms.ball]

Oh Well last time I checked the West has won the last three championships! So by your standard the East is still weak right?

C'mon. That's just silly. There's no comparison, that was a horrendous conference for the East.

No what silly is to ignore the fact that a 37 win (Pacers) team making into the playoffs is good? How about Philly 41-41 or new York 42-40 making it?  Yes it is more competitive now but the concept is still the same. The top teams are competitors and the bottom half makes it in just becuz you need 8 teams in the playoffs!

The top half do not compare.


The top half of this season would put the top half of then at the bottom half. 

Throw in Atlanta, not all of the top 4 teams of then might not make the playoffs of today.



Not every playoff team is equal. 

Your most likely right. Same could be said about the western teams! I'm not saying that the East of then is on the same competitive level as it now.

No.


They had the Shaq Lakers
The Duncan Spurs
The Kings with Webber

Teams that not only would be threats to win a title but possible be favorite to win. 

So you think the Shaq Lakers which consists of Foxx, Devin George and Horry could beat the 2009-2010 squad of L.O., Pau, Bynum, and Artest? Do you think Paja, Bibby, and Vlade would be favored over Durant, Westbrook, and Perk? Do you see the Mavs of then Nash, finley, Bradley Beating the Mavs of today Terry, Kidd, Chandler?

We are in a new era of basketball then 10 years ago. The point I was trying to make is those teams were competitors for that era of basketball! Maybe I didn't convey that clearly in my previous post.

[StartOrien]

So you think the Shaq Lakers which consists of Foxx, Devin George and Horry could beat the 2009-2010 squad of L.O., Pau, Bynum, and Artest? Do you think Paja, Bibby, and Vlade would be favored over Durant, Westbrook, and Perk? Do you see the Mavs of then Nash, finley, Bradley Beating the Mavs of today Terry, Kidd, Chandler?

Yes.
Yes.
No.

[StartOrien]

I made a comment in the 'who will cave first' thread.

This thread is the opposite of that.

[indeedproceed]

Chris Paul camps in the passing lanes, that doesn't make him the best defensive PG.  He gets steals, but not in a Tony Allen-like fashion.  Other than his impressive steal numbers, I don't see any reason that would support your opinion, and definitely nothing that would make it more credible than the head coaches' opinions that voted Rondo for the past 2 years.

If you put the name "Rondo" where you had "Paul", you'd be equally correct.

Rajon Rondo played most of his career in front of KG and Perkins. That advantage alone allows him to be a much much better defender.

Besides, Kyle Lowry is the best defensive PG in the NBA right meow.

  Rondo's been voted the best or among the best perimeter and on the ball defender in the league in the nba's gm surveys. It's not all Perk and KG. He was also a very good defender his rookie year when Perk was struggling with injuries and KG was toiling away in Minny.

Well I'd expect you of all people to understand that those 'GM Survey' things are about as reliable as popularity contests. Rondo is a very good defender. Chris Paul is a very good defender. It is not a coincidence though that the guy who gets the most press for being an elite defender plays in front of KG and Perk (or did).

[Moranis]

 Rondo was 24 or so last year and he's at least arguably the best pg in the nba in terms of passing, vision, running an offense and defending.

I don't think this is accurate. Healthy Chris Paul is leagues ahead of him (and the rest of the NBA for that matter)

  Better in terms of scoring, arguably better at other things, arguably not. But what's a healthy Chris Paul going forward compared to last year's version?

His scoring/shooting makes him inarguably better at running an offense, and I think he's by wide margin the best defensive point guard in the league.

Their vision is comparable, Rondo's the more gifted passer.

No, no, and no.

Chris Paul camps in the passing lanes, that doesn't make him the best defensive PG.  He gets steals, but not in a Tony Allen-like fashion.  Other than his impressive steal numbers, I don't see any reason that would support your opinion, and definitely nothing that would make it more credible than the head coaches' opinions that voted Rondo for the past 2 years.

Their vision is in no way comparable.  I wouldn't dare compare Rondo's vision to anyone currently in the league aside from Kidd.

And there's no chance Paul is better at running an offense.  How many players does he really "run"?  I count David West.  I can see the argument that his jump shot or his double teams makes him better at running the pick and roll, but if we're talking about getting the whole team involved in all varieties of plays, it's Rondo.  Chris Paul is a master at creating space in a 1 or 2 man game, but that doesn't automatically make him better at running the offense overall.





Passing is the only category where they're comparable.  But how the heck are you going to compare pure passing?  Have them stand next to each other and hit targets?  Maybe if Rondo ever makes his way over to the Skills Challenge we'll finally see someone break Deron's record.  Hopefully he goes up against Paul (who btw has lost 4 times, more losses than anyone else has appearances)

You mean when Paul was injured.  What happened 3 years ago when Paul wasn't injured?

[StartOrien]

Hopefully he goes up against Paul (who btw has lost 4 times, more losses than anyone else has appearances)

How did I miss this? We're talking about the skills competition right now? The only event someone could dream of that's less exciting than the Rising Star Hot Spots?

[BballTim]

It is not a coincidence though that the guy who gets the most press for being an elite defender plays in front of KG and Perk (or did).

  Or, in fact, it could be. It seems that your argument is that playing with KG and Perk precludes Rondo from being considered the best defender. I don't think that's the case.

  

[Moranis]

BTW last year, Paul's opponents had a PER of 16.3, Rondo's was 17.5.  Turnovers were the same, shooting percentage about the same.  Paul's guy had more assists and slightly less rebounds and committed more fouls.  Paul's guy shot less (hence more passes and turnovers) and likewise scored less.

I'd says statistically they were pretty darn similar on the defensive end of the floor, at least according to 82games.com.

[indeedproceed]

Hopefully he goes up against Paul (who btw has lost 4 times, more losses than anyone else has appearances)

How did I miss this? We're talking about the skills competition right now? The only event someone could dream of that's less exciting than the Rising Star Hot Spots?

"The NBA Skills Competition: Not Giving A Crap Since 2001"

It is not a coincidence though that the guy who gets the most press for being an elite defender plays in front of KG and Perk (or did).

  Or, in fact, it could be. It seems that your argument is that playing with KG and Perk precludes Rondo from being considered the best defender. I don't think that's the case.

Well, that's not the case. What precludes Rondo from being the 'arbitrarily anointed best defensive PG' in my mind is that he is in fact not the best defensive PG. Neither is Chris Paul. Kyle Lowry is the best defensive PG in basketball right now. But, Paul and Rondo are right there.

But point guard is a hard position to gauge defensively anyways. Its a lot easier to see who the bad ones are than the good ones.   

[BballTim]

 Rondo was 24 or so last year and he's at least arguably the best pg in the nba in terms of passing, vision, running an offense and defending.

I don't think this is accurate. Healthy Chris Paul is leagues ahead of him (and the rest of the NBA for that matter)

  Better in terms of scoring, arguably better at other things, arguably not. But what's a healthy Chris Paul going forward compared to last year's version?

His scoring/shooting makes him inarguably better at running an offense, and I think he's by wide margin the best defensive point guard in the league.

Their vision is comparable, Rondo's the more gifted passer.

No, no, and no.

Chris Paul camps in the passing lanes, that doesn't make him the best defensive PG.  He gets steals, but not in a Tony Allen-like fashion.  Other than his impressive steal numbers, I don't see any reason that would support your opinion, and definitely nothing that would make it more credible than the head coaches' opinions that voted Rondo for the past 2 years.

Their vision is in no way comparable.  I wouldn't dare compare Rondo's vision to anyone currently in the league aside from Kidd.

And there's no chance Paul is better at running an offense.  How many players does he really "run"?  I count David West.  I can see the argument that his jump shot or his double teams makes him better at running the pick and roll, but if we're talking about getting the whole team involved in all varieties of plays, it's Rondo.  Chris Paul is a master at creating space in a 1 or 2 man game, but that doesn't automatically make him better at running the offense overall.





Passing is the only category where they're comparable.  But how the heck are you going to compare pure passing?  Have them stand next to each other and hit targets?  Maybe if Rondo ever makes his way over to the Skills Challenge we'll finally see someone break Deron's record.  Hopefully he goes up against Paul (who btw has lost 4 times, more losses than anyone else has appearances)

You mean when Paul was injured.  What happened 3 years ago when Paul wasn't injured?

  Three years ago CP3 was the best defensive pg in the league. That was his 4th year as a starter and Rondo's 2nd, and it generally takes a few years to get to be a good defender. A valid question is, are we all sure that CP3's knee ever be as healthy as it was 3 years ago? Because there's a lot of debate on the issue.

[StartOrien]

Hopefully he goes up against Paul (who btw has lost 4 times, more losses than anyone else has appearances)

How did I miss this? We're talking about the skills competition right now? The only event someone could dream of that's less exciting than the Rising Star Hot Spots?

"The NBA Skills Competition: Not Giving A Crap Since 2001"

It is not a coincidence though that the guy who gets the most press for being an elite defender plays in front of KG and Perk (or did).

  Or, in fact, it could be. It seems that your argument is that playing with KG and Perk precludes Rondo from being considered the best defender. I don't think that's the case.

Well, that's not the case. What precludes Rondo from being the 'arbitrarily anointed best defensive PG' in my mind is that he is in fact not the best defensive PG. Neither is Chris Paul. Kyle Lowry is the best defensive PG in basketball right now. But, Paul and Rondo are right there.

But point guard is a hard position to gauge defensively anyways. Its a lot easier to see who the bad ones are than the good ones.   

[indeedproceed]

You leave Chris Bosh outta this. He's gone through enough without me embarrassing him in a basketball debate.

[StartOrien]

  Three years ago CP3 was the best defensive pg in the league. That was his 4th year as a starter and Rondo's 2nd, and it generally takes a few years to get to be a good defender. A valid question is, are we all sure that CP3's knee ever be as healthy as it was 3 years ago? Because there's a lot of debate on the issue.

Steals aren't always indicative of your play, but he did lead the league in steals 4 of 6 years, including his rookie season.

I'd say he was the best PG in the league since his sophomore season.