Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?

[Moranis]

If you took the best players on each of the Celtics and Nets that year, I still don't think that's a Championship team.

This looks like a championship team to me, or certainly the potential to do it.  Obviously Shaq would have been a problem, but he was a problem for everyone at that time.

PG - Kidd, Anderson, Delk
SG - Pierce, Kittles
SF - Van Horn, Jefferson, Williams
PF - Martin, Walker, McCarty
C - Rogers, Battie

You probably start Walker at SF instead of Van Horn.

A contender if they make a trade for a starting C.  (bye Kittles, Van Horn and Anderson)

Shaq is the only guy that would have given them problems.  None of the other teams out west (or east for that matter) had a dominant center that Rogers, Battie, and even Martin couldn't have contended with. 

[wdleehi]

If you took the best players on each of the Celtics and Nets that year, I still don't think that's a Championship team.

This looks like a championship team to me, or certainly the potential to do it.  Obviously Shaq would have been a problem, but he was a problem for everyone at that time.

PG - Kidd, Anderson, Delk
SG - Pierce, Kittles
SF - Van Horn, Jefferson, Williams
PF - Martin, Walker, McCarty
C - Rogers, Battie

You probably start Walker at SF instead of Van Horn.

A contender if they make a trade for a starting C.  (bye Kittles, Van Horn and Anderson)

Shaq is the only guy that would have given them problems.  None of the other teams out west (or east for that matter) had a dominant center that Rogers, Battie, and even Martin couldn't have contended with. 

Duncan would have been an issue in a 7 game series. 

[indeedproceed]

The same way Kidd at 28-30 was probably more consistent than Kidd at 24-25.

Kidd was always a pretty consistent player. Though you're right to say that in this comparison he had much more time to become the MVP type of player he was.

I hope Rondo can gain some of that consistency with years time. He'll certainly improve, but I don't think he'll be able to reach the same heights J-Kidd did in his prime.

  Here's Kidd's game logs from when he was Rondo's age. Take a look and let me know how consistent he was.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01/gamelog/1998/

To further boost that, here are each players' stats through their first 5 yrs in the league:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rondora01&y1=2011&p2=kiddja01&y2=1999

Very similar. Especially look at their Per-36 numbers.

Rk        Player From   To   G  GS    MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1     Jason Kidd 1995 1999 347 337 12844 4.8 11.9 .402 1.1 3.3 .325 2.5 3.4 .723 1.7 4.1 5.8 8.9 2.0 0.3 3.2 1.9 13.1
2    Rajon Rondo 2007 2011 384 331 12269 5.0 10.3 .486 0.2 0.6 .242 1.9 3.1 .622 1.3 3.7 5.0 8.5 2.2 0.2 2.9 2.6 12.0

And, both players took big strides forward in their 4th and 5th seasons.

Kidd had a much better shooting stroke and was actually improving in those numbers pretty much every year.  Rondo has essentially gotten worse and Rondo is playing on a  better team and with a much lesser role (which means not nearly as many bad shots need to be taken).  

Rondo is not Kidd.  Not even close.

Actually, funny story: Kidd's best scoring year was his 5th year, the last one put into those totals. He was more efficient at age 36 and 35, but he had far fewer attempts and a largely diminished role.

Rondo may or may not improve. Yes, he took a step back this season, but it was also the first year he had a significant injury, and attempted to play through it. Plus, couple that with the entire team basically throwing its self a pity party after the All-Star break, and an unfortunate injury in the second round, and I don't think you can use this year to write Rondo off.

You can say "I don't know if he'll ever get any better", but you can't just hang him out there and say this year has far reaching ramifications.

[StartOrien]

If you took the best players on each of the Celtics and Nets that year, I still don't think that's a Championship team.

This looks like a championship team to me, or certainly the potential to do it.  Obviously Shaq would have been a problem, but he was a problem for everyone at that time.

PG - Kidd, Anderson, Delk
SG - Pierce, Kittles
SF - Van Horn, Jefferson, Williams
PF - Martin, Walker, McCarty
C - Rogers, Battie

You probably start Walker at SF instead of Van Horn.

A contender if they make a trade for a starting C.  (bye Kittles, Van Horn and Anderson)

Shaq is the only guy that would have given them problems.  None of the other teams out west (or east for that matter) had a dominant center that Rogers, Battie, and even Martin couldn't have contended with. 

Duncan would have been an issue in a 7 game series. 

I think any team with a good 5 could give this team some issues.

[BballTim]

The same way Kidd at 28-30 was probably more consistent than Kidd at 24-25.

Kidd was always a pretty consistent player. Though you're right to say that in this comparison he had much more time to become the MVP type of player he was.

I hope Rondo can gain some of that consistency with years time. He'll certainly improve, but I don't think he'll be able to reach the same heights J-Kidd did in his prime.

  Here's Kidd's game logs from when he was Rondo's age. Take a look and let me know how consistent he was.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01/gamelog/1998/

To further boost that, here are each players' stats through their first 5 yrs in the league:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rondora01&y1=2011&p2=kiddja01&y2=1999

Very similar. Especially look at their Per-36 numbers.

Rk        Player From   To   G  GS    MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1     Jason Kidd 1995 1999 347 337 12844 4.8 11.9 .402 1.1 3.3 .325 2.5 3.4 .723 1.7 4.1 5.8 8.9 2.0 0.3 3.2 1.9 13.1
2    Rajon Rondo 2007 2011 384 331 12269 5.0 10.3 .486 0.2 0.6 .242 1.9 3.1 .622 1.3 3.7 5.0 8.5 2.2 0.2 2.9 2.6 12.0

And, both players took big strides forward in their 4th and 5th seasons.

Kidd had a much better shooting stroke and was actually improving in those numbers pretty much every year.  Rondo has essentially gotten worse and Rondo is playing on a  better team and with a much lesser role (which means not nearly as many bad shots need to be taken). 

Rondo is not Kidd.  Not even close.

  Jason Kidd's shooting ability pretty much begins and ends with being a spot up three point shooter and he didn't begin to consistently do that at or above the league average until he was in his 30s.

  Check out his shot locations for the last  years:

  http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Jason%20Kidd

  At the rim? Well below average. 3-9 feet? Abysmal. 10-15 feet? Also abysmal. Well below Rondo from all three ranges. 16-23 feet? Still below average in general, probably still below Rondo. Mind you, this is during the best shooting years of his career.

[ms.ball]

Oh Well last time I checked the West has won the last three championships! So by your standard the East is still weak right?

C'mon. That's just silly. There's no comparison, that was a horrendous conference for the East.

No what silly is to ignore the fact that a 37 win (Pacers) team making into the playoffs is good? How about Philly 41-41 or new York 42-40 making it?  Yes it is more competitive now but the concept is still the same. The top teams are competitors and the bottom half makes it in just becuz you need 8 teams in the playoffs!

I'm sorry, but if you can't concede that point it's awfully hard to take your other points seriously.

And I sorry you were under the impression that I cared if you take my posts seriously!

[BballTim]

I hate to be the anti-numbers guy because it always reads as being either an old man or an idiot, but:

I don't care what the numbers say - Jason Kidd was a better player at that age and you always felt good about him continuing to improve. You knew he was a once in a generation kind of talent. I don't get the same feeling about Rondo.

  Rondo was 24 or so last year and he's at least arguably the best pg in the nba in terms of passing, vision, running an offense and defending. He's among the best rebounders in the  league and well above average at getting to the rim and finishing. Seems like a skill set you don't see on a regular basis as well.

[StartOrien]

  Rondo was 24 or so last year and he's at least arguably the best pg in the nba in terms of passing, vision, running an offense and defending.

I don't think this is accurate. Healthy Chris Paul is leagues ahead of him (and the rest of the NBA for that matter)

[BballTim]

Box scores are a tricky thing, particularly with Rondo. Because there are games where he's absolutely fantastic and it doesn't show up in the stats, and there's other ones where you feel like you're constantly yelling at him to run the ball and then he ends up with a great stat line.

The best I can do this year is show his game log and then point out the amount of games that he has over 5 turnovers:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/gamelog/2011/

But even that's not a great, because I don't think a high turnover rate is always  indicative of the Point Guards play.

  I agree that box scores don't tell the whole story, but can you look at Kidd's stats from the same age and claim that he was more consistent, or even as consistent as Rondo was pre-injury?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01/gamelog/1998/

[BballTim]

  Rondo was 24 or so last year and he's at least arguably the best pg in the nba in terms of passing, vision, running an offense and defending.

I don't think this is accurate. Healthy Chris Paul is leagues ahead of him (and the rest of the NBA for that matter)

  Better in terms of scoring, arguably better at other things, arguably not. But what's a healthy Chris Paul going forward compared to last year's version?

[StartOrien]

I agree that box scores don't tell the whole story, but can you look at Kidd's stats from the same age and claim that he was more consistent, or even as consistent as Rono was pre-injury?

I can' tell you from what I watched, and granted that's obviously not nearly as much as I've watched Rondo, that yes, he was significantly more consistent.

As pointed out above, if you want to keep bringing up numbers you have to also consider the surrounding cast, and what they were asked to do.

[StartOrien]

  Rondo was 24 or so last year and he's at least arguably the best pg in the nba in terms of passing, vision, running an offense and defending.

I don't think this is accurate. Healthy Chris Paul is leagues ahead of him (and the rest of the NBA for that matter)

  Better in terms of scoring, arguably better at other things, arguably not. But what's a healthy Chris Paul going forward compared to last year's version?

His scoring/shooting makes him inarguably better at running an offense, and I think he's by wide margin the best defensive point guard in the league.

Their vision is comparable, Rondo's the more gifted passer.

[BballTim]

I agree that box scores don't tell the whole story, but can you look at Kidd's stats from the same age and claim that he was more consistent, or even as consistent as Rono was pre-injury?

I can' tell you from what I watched, and granted that's obviously not nearly as much as I've watched Rondo, that yes, he was significantly more consistent.

As pointed out above, if you want to keep bringing up numbers you have to also consider the surrounding cast, and what they were asked to do.

  And you're saying that your memories are specifically from the late 80s and early 90s? Also, was he consistently good when you saw him or consistently bad? Were the games you watched from the 20 games where he scored 16 or more or the 20 where he scored 6 or less? The 21 games where he had 12 or more assists, or the 20 where he had 6 or less? How about the 10 or so games where he had 6 or less assists and scored in single digits? Were those the games you saw?

[BballTim]

  Rondo was 24 or so last year and he's at least arguably the best pg in the nba in terms of passing, vision, running an offense and defending.

I don't think this is accurate. Healthy Chris Paul is leagues ahead of him (and the rest of the NBA for that matter)

  Better in terms of scoring, arguably better at other things, arguably not. But what's a healthy Chris Paul going forward compared to last year's version?

His scoring/shooting makes him inarguably better at running an offense

  No it doesn't, any more than scoring/shooting makes Rose or Westbrook better at running an offense.

and I think he's by wide margin the best defensive point guard in the league.

  Aside from any defensive numbers favoring Rondo, nba coaches and gms don't seem to share your opinion.

[StartOrien]

I agree that box scores don't tell the whole story, but can you look at Kidd's stats from the same age and claim that he was more consistent, or even as consistent as Rono was pre-injury?

I can' tell you from what I watched, and granted that's obviously not nearly as much as I've watched Rondo, that yes, he was significantly more consistent.

As pointed out above, if you want to keep bringing up numbers you have to also consider the surrounding cast, and what they were asked to do.

  And you're saying that your memories are specifically from the late 80s and early 90s? Also, was he consistently good when you saw him or consistently bad? Were the games you watched from the 20 games where he scored 16 or more or the 20 where he scored 6 or less? The 21 games where he had 12 or more assists, or the 20 where he had 6 or less? How about the 10 or so games where he had 6 or less assists and scored in single digits? Were those the games you saw?

Ah, my memories of late 1980's Jason Kidd. Those were the days.  Growing up, playing basketball seemingly 24 hours away to distract us from the potential dangers living in Oakland. Just getting on our grind, trying to find a way out, ya know?

We were always playing with older people, man. That's just how good J was. He's running the show in a pickup game with guys sometimes 5-10 years!  And he always won, I swear, I think we must've played like 3,000 games and I think I saw him lose eight. And all eight of those games were against the Glove! How crazy is that?!

Anyways, ya, I got a pretty good look at J Kidd in the late 80's and if there's one thing that's always been burned into my memory it's this - Dude was consistent. Night in, night out. Always brought it. Even after I had to move out here to the East Coast. His best friend moved miles away and I heard it didn't affect his game one bit.

Years later, I can't help but think: What if my moms didn't have to move? What if I stayed in Oaktown? What was in MY future? It's not that I have a bad life now - In fact, I'd say I've got a pretty good one. But it aint THE LIFE, ya know? It's not that NBA life.