Author Topic: Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?  (Read 75441 times)

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Offline StartOrien

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Jason Kidd is slightly more applicable, though even past the fact that the East was really weak during his rein, he was a much more consistent player than Rondo.

Offline bfrombleacher

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I think this is what makes a bunch of us "Rondo haters." There is a case to be made that he could be 'built around,' but it's not by citing that Magic Johnson, greatest point guard of all time, didn't have a great shot. Or that Dwight Howard - best defensive center in at least a decade, athletic freak - also struggles from the free throw line.

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Offline BballTim

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I think this is what makes a bunch of us "Rondo haters." There is a case to be made that he could be 'built around,' but it's not by citing that Magic Johnson, greatest point guard of all time, didn't have a great shot. Or that Dwight Howard - best defensive center in at least a decade, athletic freak - also struggles from the free throw line.

  Nobody used Magic's shooting or Dwight's ft shooting to claim that we should build around Rondo. But it's reasonable to keep a little historical context in these discussions. Rondo's not the only player that ever had a weak outside shot. He's not the only player that's ever been left alone on the perimeter. But you see threads from "Rondo haters" that he scores like Dennis Rodman or that he shoots like Ben Wallace.

Offline BballTim

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Jason Kidd is slightly more applicable, though even past the fact that the East was really weak during his rein, he was a much more consistent player than Rondo.

  Even if you ignore the fact that Rondo's consistent when he's healthy, it should be unsurprising that Kidd might have been more consistent when he was 28-30 than Rondo at 24-25. The same way Kidd at 28-30 was probably more consistent than Kidd at 24-25.

Offline StartOrien

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Even if you ignore the fact that Rondo's consistent when he's healthy,

At this point in his career, that is not an accurate statement.

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The same way Kidd at 28-30 was probably more consistent than Kidd at 24-25.

Kidd was always a pretty consistent player. Though you're right to say that in this comparison he had much more time to become the MVP type of player he was.

I hope Rondo can gain some of that consistency with years time. He'll certainly improve, but I don't think he'll be able to reach the same heights J-Kidd did in his prime.

Offline StartOrien

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I think this is what makes a bunch of us "Rondo haters." There is a case to be made that he could be 'built around,' but it's not by citing that Magic Johnson, greatest point guard of all time, didn't have a great shot. Or that Dwight Howard - best defensive center in at least a decade, athletic freak - also struggles from the free throw line.

  Nobody used Magic's shooting or Dwight's ft shooting to claim that we should build around Rondo.

Yes. Yes, they were.

This is a thread questioning if Rondo is a building block, not a random facts thread. They were presented to support an argument.

Offline StartOrien

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As far as what I think, I don't think he can be 'the guy.'

I think his ceiling is probably a better version of Tony Parker in his prime. A great PG, could be an NBA champion, even a possible NBA finals, but he's not going to be the top guy on the team.

Again, I think there's a really small pool of NBA PG's that you'd build your team around. I don't think Rondo can get to that very exclusive club.

Offline BballTim

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Even if you ignore the fact that Rondo's consistent when he's healthy,

At this point in his career, that is not an accurate statement.


  Go back to the first couple of months of the season where he was fairly healthy and show me 5-6 bad games.

Offline BballTim

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I think this is what makes a bunch of us "Rondo haters." There is a case to be made that he could be 'built around,' but it's not by citing that Magic Johnson, greatest point guard of all time, didn't have a great shot. Or that Dwight Howard - best defensive center in at least a decade, athletic freak - also struggles from the free throw line.

  Nobody used Magic's shooting or Dwight's ft shooting to claim that we should build around Rondo.

Yes. Yes, they were.

This is a thread questioning if Rondo is a building block, not a random facts thread. They were presented to support an argument.

  The argument that Rondo isn't the only player that's ever had a below average jump shot, which is clearly true. As for the "not a random facts thread", what makes a couple of posts about Magic's shooting all that different than a couple of posts of Kidd's consistency when he was younger?

Offline BballTim

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The same way Kidd at 28-30 was probably more consistent than Kidd at 24-25.

Kidd was always a pretty consistent player. Though you're right to say that in this comparison he had much more time to become the MVP type of player he was.

I hope Rondo can gain some of that consistency with years time. He'll certainly improve, but I don't think he'll be able to reach the same heights J-Kidd did in his prime.

  Here's Kidd's game logs from when he was Rondo's age. Take a look and let me know how consistent he was.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01/gamelog/1998/

Re: Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?
« Reply #100 on: September 02, 2011, 10:56:52 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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Box scores are a tricky thing, particularly with Rondo. Because there are games where he's absolutely fantastic and it doesn't show up in the stats, and there's other ones where you feel like you're constantly yelling at him to run the ball and then he ends up with a great stat line.

The best I can do this year is show his game log and then point out the amount of games that he has over 5 turnovers:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/gamelog/2011/

But even that's not a great, because I don't think a high turnover rate is always  indicative of the Point Guards play.

Re: Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?
« Reply #101 on: September 02, 2011, 10:58:13 AM »

Offline ms.ball

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Because if building a team around Jason Kidd or Gary Payton didn't yield a championship, it definitely won't happen with a team whose best player is Rondo.




You mention having "a couple great scorers," but a truly 'great scorer' is likely to be better than Rondo, and thus the centerpiece of the team.

As others have said, Rondo is very good as a #2 or #3.  Not a player you build around.
Kidd lead his team to two finals appearances when he was not that great of a scorer, but he was a great playmaker defense minded pg who could rebound alah Rondo
Kidd was essentially the leading scorer on those two teams.  And certainly was in the playoffs.  He was a solid foul shooter and had a credible mid-range game, so you couldn't just back off of him or foul him. 

Rondo shoots foul shots like a center, which is embarrassing and he is getting worse, which should never happen.  His mechanic's are terrible and he seemingly has made no effort to correct them.  He just isn't the player Kidd was and he never will be. 
He was essentially the leader scorer averaging right around 15ppg. I think K mart numbers were slightly better then Kidds. With that being said he still wasn't a great scorer, the two years they went to the finals he shot 39% and 41% from the field. The two years Rondo went to the finals he shot 49% and 51% from the field. Neither had a decent % from three point land. And while Kidd FT numbers were better, he only attempted 3 FT's a game. Kidd just became a creditable mid range shooter in the last 5 years, his FT numbers were never at a steady mark his first 10 years. The were up and down as well. They've been around the 80% mark the last 6years. I'm sure there's hope for Rondo to improve.


Those teams made the playoffs because the East was so weak and were not a threat to win a title.


I mean one of their biggest challenges in the East those years was Boston. 


Any one think that Boston team would be getting out of the first round of the East the way it is now? 
The East was the same way it is now, about 4-5 real competitors and the rest bottom feeders! 

Dont know if you remember but The Bucks, 76ers, And Boston were all competition and those teams battled in the playoffs.


They battled each other for the honor of being beaten by the West team.  Those teams were not title contenders. 

Bucks had no big men.

76ers team had good defense and guys that had to get out of the way of AI.

Even the Carter Raptors were a threat in the East. 

A Vince Carter lead team was a threat to go to the finals. 



The East back there is a joke compared to the East now. 
Oh Well last time I checked the West has won the last three championships! So by your standard the East is still weak right?
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Re: Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?
« Reply #102 on: September 02, 2011, 11:01:30 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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Oh Well last time I checked the West has won the last three championships! So by your standard the East is still weak right?

C'mon. That's just silly. There's no comparison, that was a horrendous conference for the East.

Re: Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?
« Reply #103 on: September 02, 2011, 11:05:24 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Because if building a team around Jason Kidd or Gary Payton didn't yield a championship, it definitely won't happen with a team whose best player is Rondo.




You mention having "a couple great scorers," but a truly 'great scorer' is likely to be better than Rondo, and thus the centerpiece of the team.

As others have said, Rondo is very good as a #2 or #3.  Not a player you build around.
Kidd lead his team to two finals appearances when he was not that great of a scorer, but he was a great playmaker defense minded pg who could rebound alah Rondo
Kidd was essentially the leading scorer on those two teams.  And certainly was in the playoffs.  He was a solid foul shooter and had a credible mid-range game, so you couldn't just back off of him or foul him. 

Rondo shoots foul shots like a center, which is embarrassing and he is getting worse, which should never happen.  His mechanic's are terrible and he seemingly has made no effort to correct them.  He just isn't the player Kidd was and he never will be. 
He was essentially the leader scorer averaging right around 15ppg. I think K mart numbers were slightly better then Kidds. With that being said he still wasn't a great scorer, the two years they went to the finals he shot 39% and 41% from the field. The two years Rondo went to the finals he shot 49% and 51% from the field. Neither had a decent % from three point land. And while Kidd FT numbers were better, he only attempted 3 FT's a game. Kidd just became a creditable mid range shooter in the last 5 years, his FT numbers were never at a steady mark his first 10 years. The were up and down as well. They've been around the 80% mark the last 6years. I'm sure there's hope for Rondo to improve.


Those teams made the playoffs because the East was so weak and were not a threat to win a title.


I mean one of their biggest challenges in the East those years was Boston. 


Any one think that Boston team would be getting out of the first round of the East the way it is now? 
The East was the same way it is now, about 4-5 real competitors and the rest bottom feeders! 

Dont know if you remember but The Bucks, 76ers, And Boston were all competition and those teams battled in the playoffs.


They battled each other for the honor of being beaten by the West team.  Those teams were not title contenders. 

Bucks had no big men.

76ers team had good defense and guys that had to get out of the way of AI.

Even the Carter Raptors were a threat in the East. 

A Vince Carter lead team was a threat to go to the finals. 



The East back there is a joke compared to the East now. 
Oh Well last time I checked the West has won the last three championships! So by your standard the East is still weak right?


If you can't tell the difference between the East since the Boston team formed and the East when Philly and NJ made the finals, I don't know what to say. 


Re: Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?
« Reply #104 on: September 02, 2011, 11:06:28 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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The same way Kidd at 28-30 was probably more consistent than Kidd at 24-25.

Kidd was always a pretty consistent player. Though you're right to say that in this comparison he had much more time to become the MVP type of player he was.

I hope Rondo can gain some of that consistency with years time. He'll certainly improve, but I don't think he'll be able to reach the same heights J-Kidd did in his prime.

  Here's Kidd's game logs from when he was Rondo's age. Take a look and let me know how consistent he was.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01/gamelog/1998/

To further boost that, here are each players' stats through their first 5 yrs in the league:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rondora01&y1=2011&p2=kiddja01&y2=1999

Very similar. Especially look at their Per-36 numbers.

Rk        Player From   To   G  GS    MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1     Jason Kidd 1995 1999 347 337 12844 4.8 11.9 .402 1.1 3.3 .325 2.5 3.4 .723 1.7 4.1 5.8 8.9 2.0 0.3 3.2 1.9 13.1
2    Rajon Rondo 2007 2011 384 331 12269 5.0 10.3 .486 0.2 0.6 .242 1.9 3.1 .622 1.3 3.7 5.0 8.5 2.2 0.2 2.9 2.6 12.0

And, both players took big strides forward in their 4th and 5th seasons.

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