Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?

[Moranis]

I agree.. in fact Rondo even allows opposition teams to go 5 on 4 when defending the Celtics and just stop him from driving to the hoop. I am yet to hear championship teams' #1 guys that got left open and were dared to take jumpers.

  Are people really under the impression that teams lived in fear of Magic Johnson's long range jump shots? Or is it the case that he doesn't meet that magical criteria of a #1 guy?

dude, he was Magic Johnson.

  Yes, he was. And he was the best pg I ever saw. But being Magic Johnson didn't make him a great outside shooter any more than it made him a great defensive pg.

Magic rarely shot from the 3 point line (especially early on), but his mid-range jumper was excellent as was his foul shooting.  His TS% was never under 58% and was only under 60% 3 times in his career.  Rondo's best TS% is 54.3%.  Rondo's career best FT% was his rookie year at 64.7%.  Magic's career average is 84.8%

There is no comparison between Magic's scoring prowess and that of Rondo.  Even through their first 5 seasons, there is no comparison and making that comparison is just plain silly.

[Moranis]

Building around= taking a player who makes everyone on the team a better player, this player has great leadership skills and is simply a winner

Building around a player doesn't necessarily mean an nba champion (john stockton, all time great). 

The Jazz built around Karl Malone, not John Stockton.

[wdleehi]

What about Dwight Howard then? I'm pretty sure he is a guy you can "build around" with since Orlando would be garbage without him. In the 4th quarter, he'll be just as non-existent as ESPN's Chosen one.

Why would Howard be non-existent? 

Hack-a-Howard

Most of the posts are on how Rondo can't hit a shot in crunch time when it's needed most, like in the fourth quarter.

Difference is you can throw the ball down into Howard and either they double him or foul him.  He creates more space for the rest of the team down low vs. Rondo who ends up getting the space on the outside. 


Howard needs a secondary star that can create shots off the dribble at an elite level.  Someone who can really take advantage of the pick and roll with Howard. 


Now I have said before Rondo and Howard would make a good duo.  Almost as good as Paul and Howard.

[Celtics4ever]

I think we can build around Rondo but it's going to take a certain mindset.  Rondo needs to be surrounded by shooters, big men who can catch the ball and I think he would be even better if he had some running mates who ran the court better.  The half court game that helps our vets is a double edge sword for him.   He is most disruptive in the open court in transition which he doesn't see much now.  I am hoping the Johnson kid runs the court because he has tremendous ups and could be a alley opp machine.

While one could build around Rondo, he is not a bonafide franchise player in a classical sense.  It could be done, but one would always be accepting a slag D where they are not playing the PG honest until his shot improves.

[wdleehi]

I think we can build around Rondo but it's going to take a certain mindset.  Rondo needs to be surrounded by shooters, big men who can catch the ball and I think he would be even better if he had some running mates who ran the court better.  The half court game that helps our vets is a double edge sword for him.   He is most disruptive in the open court in transition which he doesn't see much now.  I am hoping the Johnson kid runs the court because he has tremendous ups and could be a alley opp machine.

While one could build around Rondo, he is not a bonafide franchise player in a classical sense.  It could be done, but one would always be accepting a slag D where they are not playing the PG honest until his shot improves.

You can build around his style, but if you want to be a title contender, he should not be the best player on the team.

[bfrombleacher]

I think we can build around Rondo but it's going to take a certain mindset.  Rondo needs to be surrounded by shooters, big men who can catch the ball and I think he would be even better if he had some running mates who ran the court better.  The half court game that helps our vets is a double edge sword for him.   He is most disruptive in the open court in transition which he doesn't see much now.  I am hoping the Johnson kid runs the court because he has tremendous ups and could be a alley opp machine.

While one could build around Rondo, he is not a bonafide franchise player in a classical sense.  It could be done, but one would always be accepting a slag D where they are not playing the PG honest until his shot improves.

You can build around his style, but if you want to be a title contender, he should not be the best player on the team.

Someone already said this a few pages back. Rondo earns a "second best player" salary. However, he does more than that currently and if Ainge surrounds him with fitting pieces, Ainge would be getting more than his money's worth.

[wdleehi]

I think we can build around Rondo but it's going to take a certain mindset.  Rondo needs to be surrounded by shooters, big men who can catch the ball and I think he would be even better if he had some running mates who ran the court better.  The half court game that helps our vets is a double edge sword for him.   He is most disruptive in the open court in transition which he doesn't see much now.  I am hoping the Johnson kid runs the court because he has tremendous ups and could be a alley opp machine.

While one could build around Rondo, he is not a bonafide franchise player in a classical sense.  It could be done, but one would always be accepting a slag D where they are not playing the PG honest until his shot improves.

You can build around his style, but if you want to be a title contender, he should not be the best player on the team.

Someone already said this a few pages back. Rondo earns a "second best player" salary. However, he does more than that currently and if Ainge surrounds him with fitting pieces, Ainge would be getting more than his money's worth.

He does?

Seems to me that there are three stars on this team more likely to have the ball in their hands for the clutch situations. 

[ms.ball]

Because if building a team around Jason Kidd or Gary Payton didn't yield a championship, it definitely won't happen with a team whose best player is Rondo.




You mention having "a couple great scorers," but a truly 'great scorer' is likely to be better than Rondo, and thus the centerpiece of the team.

As others have said, Rondo is very good as a #2 or #3.  Not a player you build around.

Kidd lead his team to two finals appearances when he was not that great of a scorer, but he was a great playmaker defense minded pg who could rebound alah Rondo

Kidd was essentially the leading scorer on those two teams.  And certainly was in the playoffs.  He was a solid foul shooter and had a credible mid-range game, so you couldn't just back off of him or foul him. 

Rondo shoots foul shots like a center, which is embarrassing and he is getting worse, which should never happen.  His mechanic's are terrible and he seemingly has made no effort to correct them.  He just isn't the player Kidd was and he never will be. 

He was essentially the leader scorer averaging right around 15ppg. I think K mart numbers were slightly better then Kidds. With that being said he still wasn't a great scorer, the two years they went to the finals he shot 39% and 41% from the field. The two years Rondo went to the finals he shot 49% and 51% from the field. Neither had a decent % from three point land. And while Kidd FT numbers were better, he only attempted 3 FT's a game. Kidd just became a creditable mid range shooter in the last 5 years, his FT numbers were never at a steady mark his first 10 years. The were up and down as well. They've been around the 80% mark the last 6years. I'm sure there's hope for Rondo to improve.

[wdleehi]

Because if building a team around Jason Kidd or Gary Payton didn't yield a championship, it definitely won't happen with a team whose best player is Rondo.




You mention having "a couple great scorers," but a truly 'great scorer' is likely to be better than Rondo, and thus the centerpiece of the team.

As others have said, Rondo is very good as a #2 or #3.  Not a player you build around.

Kidd lead his team to two finals appearances when he was not that great of a scorer, but he was a great playmaker defense minded pg who could rebound alah Rondo

Kidd was essentially the leading scorer on those two teams.  And certainly was in the playoffs.  He was a solid foul shooter and had a credible mid-range game, so you couldn't just back off of him or foul him. 

Rondo shoots foul shots like a center, which is embarrassing and he is getting worse, which should never happen.  His mechanic's are terrible and he seemingly has made no effort to correct them.  He just isn't the player Kidd was and he never will be. 

He was essentially the leader scorer averaging right around 15ppg. I think K mart numbers were slightly better then Kidds. With that being said he still wasn't a great scorer, the two years they went to the finals he shot 39% and 41% from the field. The two years Rondo went to the finals he shot 49% and 51% from the field. Neither had a decent % from three point land. And while Kidd FT numbers were better, he only attempted 3 FT's a game. Kidd just became a creditable mid range shooter in the last 5 years, his FT numbers were never at a steady mark his first 10 years. The were up and down as well. They've been around the 80% mark the last 6years. I'm sure there's hope for Rondo to improve.

Those teams made the playoffs because the East was so weak and were not a threat to win a title.


I mean one of their biggest challenges in the East those years was Boston. 


Any one think that Boston team would be getting out of the first round of the East the way it is now? 

[bfrombleacher]

I think we can build around Rondo but it's going to take a certain mindset.  Rondo needs to be surrounded by shooters, big men who can catch the ball and I think he would be even better if he had some running mates who ran the court better.  The half court game that helps our vets is a double edge sword for him.   He is most disruptive in the open court in transition which he doesn't see much now.  I am hoping the Johnson kid runs the court because he has tremendous ups and could be a alley opp machine.

While one could build around Rondo, he is not a bonafide franchise player in a classical sense.  It could be done, but one would always be accepting a slag D where they are not playing the PG honest until his shot improves.

You can build around his style, but if you want to be a title contender, he should not be the best player on the team.

Someone already said this a few pages back. Rondo earns a "second best player" salary. However, he does more than that currently and if Ainge surrounds him with fitting pieces, Ainge would be getting more than his money's worth.

He does?

Seems to me that there are three stars on this team more likely to have the ball in their hands for the clutch situations. 

Outside of the fourth quarter, Rondo runs the entire thing. But then this brings us right back to the "#1 player" discussion except now it's for "#2 players".

[ms.ball]

Because if building a team around Jason Kidd or Gary Payton didn't yield a championship, it definitely won't happen with a team whose best player is Rondo.




You mention having "a couple great scorers," but a truly 'great scorer' is likely to be better than Rondo, and thus the centerpiece of the team.

As others have said, Rondo is very good as a #2 or #3.  Not a player you build around.

Kidd lead his team to two finals appearances when he was not that great of a scorer, but he was a great playmaker defense minded pg who could rebound alah Rondo

Kidd was essentially the leading scorer on those two teams.  And certainly was in the playoffs.  He was a solid foul shooter and had a credible mid-range game, so you couldn't just back off of him or foul him. 

Rondo shoots foul shots like a center, which is embarrassing and he is getting worse, which should never happen.  His mechanic's are terrible and he seemingly has made no effort to correct them.  He just isn't the player Kidd was and he never will be. 

He was essentially the leader scorer averaging right around 15ppg. I think K mart numbers were slightly better then Kidds. With that being said he still wasn't a great scorer, the two years they went to the finals he shot 39% and 41% from the field. The two years Rondo went to the finals he shot 49% and 51% from the field. Neither had a decent % from three point land. And while Kidd FT numbers were better, he only attempted 3 FT's a game. Kidd just became a creditable mid range shooter in the last 5 years, his FT numbers were never at a steady mark his first 10 years. The were up and down as well. They've been around the 80% mark the last 6years. I'm sure there's hope for Rondo to improve.

Those teams made the playoffs because the East was so weak and were not a threat to win a title.


I mean one of their biggest challenges in the East those years was Boston. 


Any one think that Boston team would be getting out of the first round of the East the way it is now? 

The East was the same way it is now, about 4-5 real competitors and the rest bottom feeders! 

Dont know if you remember but The Bucks, 76ers, And Boston were all competition and those teams battled in the playoffs.

[BballTim]

I agree.. in fact Rondo even allows opposition teams to go 5 on 4 when defending the Celtics and just stop him from driving to the hoop. I am yet to hear championship teams' #1 guys that got left open and were dared to take jumpers.

  Are people really under the impression that teams lived in fear of Magic Johnson's long range jump shots? Or is it the case that he doesn't meet that magical criteria of a #1 guy?

dude, he was Magic Johnson.

  Yes, he was. And he was the best pg I ever saw. But being Magic Johnson didn't make him a great outside shooter any more than it made him a great defensive pg.

Magic rarely shot from the 3 point line (especially early on), but his mid-range jumper was excellent as was his foul shooting.  His TS% was never under 58% and was only under 60% 3 times in his career.  Rondo's best TS% is 54.3%.  Rondo's career best FT% was his rookie year at 64.7%.  Magic's career average is 84.8%

There is no comparison between Magic's scoring prowess and that of Rondo.  Even through their first 5 seasons, there is no comparison and making that comparison is just plain silly.

  Magic's high TS% was due to his being a 6'9 pg and his ability to get to the rim, not great outside shooting.

[wdleehi]

Because if building a team around Jason Kidd or Gary Payton didn't yield a championship, it definitely won't happen with a team whose best player is Rondo.




You mention having "a couple great scorers," but a truly 'great scorer' is likely to be better than Rondo, and thus the centerpiece of the team.

As others have said, Rondo is very good as a #2 or #3.  Not a player you build around.

Kidd lead his team to two finals appearances when he was not that great of a scorer, but he was a great playmaker defense minded pg who could rebound alah Rondo

Kidd was essentially the leading scorer on those two teams.  And certainly was in the playoffs.  He was a solid foul shooter and had a credible mid-range game, so you couldn't just back off of him or foul him. 

Rondo shoots foul shots like a center, which is embarrassing and he is getting worse, which should never happen.  His mechanic's are terrible and he seemingly has made no effort to correct them.  He just isn't the player Kidd was and he never will be. 

He was essentially the leader scorer averaging right around 15ppg. I think K mart numbers were slightly better then Kidds. With that being said he still wasn't a great scorer, the two years they went to the finals he shot 39% and 41% from the field. The two years Rondo went to the finals he shot 49% and 51% from the field. Neither had a decent % from three point land. And while Kidd FT numbers were better, he only attempted 3 FT's a game. Kidd just became a creditable mid range shooter in the last 5 years, his FT numbers were never at a steady mark his first 10 years. The were up and down as well. They've been around the 80% mark the last 6years. I'm sure there's hope for Rondo to improve.

Those teams made the playoffs because the East was so weak and were not a threat to win a title.


I mean one of their biggest challenges in the East those years was Boston. 


Any one think that Boston team would be getting out of the first round of the East the way it is now? 

The East was the same way it is now, about 4-5 real competitors and the rest bottom feeders! 

Dont know if you remember but The Bucks, 76ers, And Boston were all competition and those teams battled in the playoffs.

They battled each other for the honor of being beaten by the West team.  Those teams were not title contenders. 

Bucks had no big men.

76ers team had good defense and guys that had to get out of the way of AI.

Even the Carter Raptors were a threat in the East. 

A Vince Carter lead team was a threat to go to the finals. 



The East back there is a joke compared to the East now. 

[StartOrien]

Just to be clear here:

We're talking about Rajon Rondo.

And people are making a case for him by citing how he's similar to Magic Johnson and Dwight Howard?

[StartOrien]

I think this is what makes a bunch of us "Rondo haters." There is a case to be made that he could be 'built around,' but it's not by citing that Magic Johnson, greatest point guard of all time, didn't have a great shot. Or that Dwight Howard - best defensive center in at least a decade, athletic freak - also struggles from the free throw line.