Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?

[PosImpos]

I hate to be the anti-numbers guy because it always reads as being either an old man or an idiot, but:

I don't care what the numbers say - Jason Kidd was a better player at that age and you always felt good about him continuing to improve. You knew he was a once in a generation kind of talent. I don't get the same feeling about Rondo.

  Rondo was 24 or so last year and he's at least arguably the best pg in the nba in terms of passing, vision, running an offense and defending. He's among the best rebounders in the  league and well above average at getting to the rim and finishing. Seems like a skill set you don't see on a regular basis as well.

I don't disagree with any of this.  Rondo is very good at those things, and his skillset is certainly unique.  He is a very good player, one of the top players at his position. 

This doesn't mean that he is the sort of player around which it is a good idea to build a team.  In my opinion, you build a team around a player that can be a force on both ends of the floor.  A team with such a "franchise player" will be successful even though that player is the most productive on both ends in almost every game.  I just don't see how Rondo can be that kind of player.

[LilRip]

silly CB posters.

Obviously Rajon Rondo is better than Magic Johnson and Kidd could've brought home that championship over the Shaq-Kobe Lakers twice in a row if only he were as good as Rondo, because a prime Kerry Kittles, Van Horn, and Kenyon Martin are a much better supporting cast than Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett.

[StartOrien]

Maybe this is a question for another thread, but I'll at least pose it here:

If you were to start a team and you could start your team with any member of the Celtics - for one year, and one year only - who'd you pick?

I'm really torn between Rondo, KG and Pierce.

[BballTim]

I hate to be the anti-numbers guy because it always reads as being either an old man or an idiot, but:

I don't care what the numbers say - Jason Kidd was a better player at that age and you always felt good about him continuing to improve. You knew he was a once in a generation kind of talent. I don't get the same feeling about Rondo.

  Rondo was 24 or so last year and he's at least arguably the best pg in the nba in terms of passing, vision, running an offense and defending. He's among the best rebounders in the  league and well above average at getting to the rim and finishing. Seems like a skill set you don't see on a regular basis as well.

I don't disagree with any of this.  Rondo is very good at those things, and his skillset is certainly unique.  He is a very good player, one of the top players at his position. 

This doesn't mean that he is the sort of player around which it is a good idea to build a team.  In my opinion, you build a team around a player that can be a force on both ends of the floor.  A team with such a "franchise player" will be successful even though that player is the most productive on both ends in almost every game.  I just don't see how Rondo can be that kind of player.

  Players like that are exceedingly rare. But I still think that if Rondo can up his ft% a little that he's capable of being an effective late game player. He's already a player that can dominate games on the offensive end, but that dominance is dismissed as unimportant in this discussion because he's breaking down a defense and getting an assist as opposed to scoring.

[BballTim]

Anyways, ya, I got a pretty good look at J Kidd in the late 80's and if there's one thing that's always been burned into my memory it's this - Dude was consistent. Night in, night out. Always brought it. Even after I had to move out here to the East Coast. His best friend moved miles away and I heard it didn't affect his game one bit.

  Okay, so even though Kidd had lots of great games and a fair amount of stinkers, we're marking him down as consistent. Got it.

[Moranis]

  Rondo was 24 or so last year and he's at least arguably the best pg in the nba in terms of passing, vision, running an offense and defending.

I don't think this is accurate. Healthy Chris Paul is leagues ahead of him (and the rest of the NBA for that matter)

  Better in terms of scoring, arguably better at other things, arguably not. But what's a healthy Chris Paul going forward compared to last year's version?

His scoring/shooting makes him inarguably better at running an offense

  No it doesn't, any more than scoring/shooting makes Rose or Westbrook better at running an offense.

Rose and Westbrook are more a scorer then a PG, in the Iverson mode (both are better shooters then Iverson, but still very much scorers).  Paul is much more a pure PG in the Nash mode.

[StartOrien]

Anyways, ya, I got a pretty good look at J Kidd in the late 80's and if there's one thing that's always been burned into my memory it's this - Dude was consistent. Night in, night out. Always brought it. Even after I had to move out here to the East Coast. His best friend moved miles away and I heard it didn't affect his game one bit.

  Okay, so even though Kidd had lots of great games and a fair amount of stinkers, we're marking him down as consistent. Got it.

It was different times back then, my man. We were all wearing neon, bringing our boom boxes around, everybody was talking about how good looking Madonna was, and Jason Kidd was consistently great night in and night out. But that's what it was like to be a High Schooler in Oakland back in the 80's

[indeedproceed]

I agree that box scores don't tell the whole story, but can you look at Kidd's stats from the same age and claim that he was more consistent, or even as consistent as Rono was pre-injury?

I can' tell you from what I watched, and granted that's obviously not nearly as much as I've watched Rondo, that yes, he was significantly more consistent.

As pointed out above, if you want to keep bringing up numbers you have to also consider the surrounding cast, and what they were asked to do.

  And you're saying that your memories are specifically from the late 80s and early 90s? Also, was he consistently good when you saw him or consistently bad? Were the games you watched from the 20 games where he scored 16 or more or the 20 where he scored 6 or less? The 21 games where he had 12 or more assists, or the 20 where he had 6 or less? How about the 10 or so games where he had 6 or less assists and scored in single digits? Were those the games you saw?

Ah, my memories of late 1980's Jason Kidd. Those were the days.  Growing up, playing basketball seemingly 24 hours away to distract us from the potential dangers living in Oakland. Just getting on our grind, trying to find a way out, ya know?

We were always playing with older people, man. That's just how good J was. He's running the show in a pickup game with guys sometimes 5-10 years!  And he always won, I swear, I think we must've played like 3,000 games and I think I saw him lose eight. And all eight of those games were against the Glove! How crazy is that?!

Anyways, ya, I got a pretty good look at J Kidd in the late 80's and if there's one thing that's always been burned into my memory it's this - Dude was consistent. Night in, night out. Always brought it. Even after I had to move out here to the East Coast. His best friend moved miles away and I heard it didn't affect his game one bit.

Years later, I can't help but think: What if my moms didn't have to move? What if I stayed in Oaktown? What was in MY future? It's not that I have a bad life now - In fact, I'd say I've got a pretty good one. But it aint THE LIFE, ya know? It's not that NBA life.

What if Caine had gone with Stacy to watch him play college ball. What if Ricky had run in a cross pattern weave to avoid the shotgun shells?

What if Carlito had never trusted Pachanga? You think he would've gotten on that train?

We'll never know, bro.

[StartOrien]

What if Caine had gone with Stacy to watch him play college ball. What if Ricky had run in a cross pattern weave to avoid the shotgun shells?

What if Carlito had never trusted Pachanga? You think he would've gotten on that train?

We'll never know, bro

I suppose you're right. And I'll continue to polish the floors of the gymnasium with all the passion I have left in my heart.

I'll embrace my role as the kind-hearted janitor with a dark past. And I'll teach these kids how to love... not just the game of basketball, but LIFE.

[BballTim]

  Rondo was 24 or so last year and he's at least arguably the best pg in the nba in terms of passing, vision, running an offense and defending.

I don't think this is accurate. Healthy Chris Paul is leagues ahead of him (and the rest of the NBA for that matter)

  Better in terms of scoring, arguably better at other things, arguably not. But what's a healthy Chris Paul going forward compared to last year's version?

His scoring/shooting makes him inarguably better at running an offense

  No it doesn't, any more than scoring/shooting makes Rose or Westbrook better at running an offense.

Rose and Westbrook are more a scorer then a PG, in the Iverson mode (both are better shooters then Iverson, but still very much scorers).  Paul is much more a pure PG in the Nash mode.

  Also, the earth is fairly round and the sky tends to take on a bluish tint.

  And I would seriously question whether Rose or (especially) Westbrook are better shooters than AI. There's no way either of them hit very many mid-range jumpers with 2-3 defenders draped all over them.

[BballTim]

It was different times back then, my man. We were all wearing neon, bringing our boom boxes around, everybody was talking about how good looking Madonna was, and Jason Kidd was consistently great night in and night out. But that's what it was like to be a High Schooler in Oakland back in the 80's

  My head is starting to hurt.

[StartOrien]

[indeedproceed]

What if Caine had gone with Stacy to watch him play college ball. What if Ricky had run in a cross pattern weave to avoid the shotgun shells?

What if Carlito had never trusted Pachanga? You think he would've gotten on that train?

We'll never know, bro

I suppose you're right. And I'll continue to polish the floors of the gymnasium with all the passion I have left in my heart.

I'll embrace my role as the kind-hearted janitor with a dark past. And I'll teach these kids how to love... not just the game of basketball, but LIFE.

And just think man, if you hadn't of gotten that DWI, you would never have been sentences to that community service and met that troupe of troubled children. You would never have reconnected with Hans, or helped Charlie find a father figure. Where would Kat be right now, you know? Probably playing NHLPA 93 instead of actual hockey.

[mgent]

  Rondo was 24 or so last year and he's at least arguably the best pg in the nba in terms of passing, vision, running an offense and defending.

I don't think this is accurate. Healthy Chris Paul is leagues ahead of him (and the rest of the NBA for that matter)

  Better in terms of scoring, arguably better at other things, arguably not. But what's a healthy Chris Paul going forward compared to last year's version?

His scoring/shooting makes him inarguably better at running an offense, and I think he's by wide margin the best defensive point guard in the league.

Their vision is comparable, Rondo's the more gifted passer.

No, no, and no.

Chris Paul camps in the passing lanes, that doesn't make him the best defensive PG.  He gets steals, but not in a Tony Allen-like fashion.  Other than his impressive steal numbers, I don't see any reason that would support your opinion, and definitely nothing that would make it more credible than the head coaches' opinions that voted Rondo for the past 2 years.

Their vision is in no way comparable.  I wouldn't dare compare Rondo's vision to anyone currently in the league aside from Kidd.

And there's no chance Paul is better at running an offense.  How many players does he really "run"?  I count David West.  I can see the argument that his jump shot or his double teams makes him better at running the pick and roll, but if we're talking about getting the whole team involved in all varieties of plays, it's Rondo.  Chris Paul is a master at creating space in a 1 or 2 man game, but that doesn't automatically make him better at running the offense overall.





Passing is the only category where they're comparable.  But how the heck are you going to compare pure passing?  Have them stand next to each other and hit targets?  Maybe if Rondo ever makes his way over to the Skills Challenge we'll finally see someone break Deron's record.  Hopefully he goes up against Paul (who btw has lost 4 times, more losses than anyone else has appearances)

[indeedproceed]

Chris Paul camps in the passing lanes, that doesn't make him the best defensive PG.  He gets steals, but not in a Tony Allen-like fashion.  Other than his impressive steal numbers, I don't see any reason that would support your opinion, and definitely nothing that would make it more credible than the head coaches' opinions that voted Rondo for the past 2 years.

If you put the name "Rondo" where you had "Paul", you'd be equally correct.

Rajon Rondo played most of his career in front of KG and Perkins. That advantage alone allows him to be a much much better defender.

Besides, Kyle Lowry is the best defensive PG in the NBA right meow.