Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?

[Roy H.]

Oh Well last time I checked the West has won the last three championships! So by your standard the East is still weak right?

C'mon. That's just silly. There's no comparison, that was a horrendous conference for the East.

I agree with you and wdleehi; the East back then was terrible.  I mean, a team that won 52 games was the #1 seed in the East in 2002.  I think, at the very least, the top four teams in today's East -- Miami, Chicago, Boston, and Orlando -- all would have been easy #1 seeds back in that era.

I will say, I think that if you'd swapped Kidd with Rondo on those Nets teams, they probably would have ended up in the same position.  I think they would have been good enough to get through the East, but not to win a championship.

[StartOrien]

I hate to be the anti-numbers guy because it always reads as being either an old man or an idiot, but:

I don't care what the numbers say - Jason Kidd was a better player at that age and you always felt good about him continuing to improve. You knew he was a once in a generation kind of talent. I don't get the same feeling about Rondo.

[StartOrien]

Even then, if your goal was to win a championship - Jason Kidd in his prime couldn't be the best player on your team.

[indeedproceed]

I hate to be the anti-numbers guy because it always reads as being either an old man or an idiot, but:

I don't care what the numbers say - Jason Kidd was a better player at that age and you always felt good about him continuing to improve. You knew he was a once in a generation kind of talent. I don't get the same feeling about Rondo.

Well one thing that helps your argument is that Rondo's per-36 numbers have been pretty stagnant the last 3 years (actually dropping in efficiency for the first time in his career this season), but for his career over the past 5 years he's only averaged 32 mpg. Kidd had the same per-36 production but managed it in on average 5+ more minutes per game.

Even then, if your goal was to win a championship - Jason Kidd in his prime couldn't be the best player on your team.

Hard to tell. Prime Kittles, Van Horn, and Kenyon Martin aren't scrubs, but they're not championship caliber running mates either.

[ms.ball]

Box scores are a tricky thing, particularly with Rondo. Because there are games where he's absolutely fantastic and it doesn't show up in the stats, and there's other ones where you feel like you're constantly yelling at him to run the ball and then he ends up with a great stat line.

The best I can do this year is show his game log and then point out the amount of games that he has over 5 turnovers:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/gamelog/2011/

But even that's not a great, because I don't think a high turnover rate is always  indicative of the Point Guards play.

they only thing about this is it also shows his assits as well!  Trying to Point out his  turnovers can easily be overlooked becuz of his great assits rate!  He only had one game with less then 5 assits, 28 with at least 10 assits and 12 games with 15 assits. Oh and two 20 assits games!

[StartOrien]

Quote from: StartOrien on Today at 11:14:18 am
Even then, if your goal was to win a championship - Jason Kidd in his prime couldn't be the best player on your team.

Hard to tell. Prime Kittles, Van Horn, and Kenyon Martin aren't scrubs, but they're not championship caliber running mates either.

Certainly not scrubs, but you're right. Definitely not Championship caliber.

At the same time, how much of an improvement in quality running mates could he have until he's not "the #1 guy." I think in this case, you'd have to assemble a 2000's Detroit Pistons lineup, and that's awfully difficult to do.

If you took the best players on each of the Celtics and Nets that year, I still don't think that's a Championship team.

[ms.ball]

Oh Well last time I checked the West has won the last three championships! So by your standard the East is still weak right?

C'mon. That's just silly. There's no comparison, that was a horrendous conference for the East.

No what silly is to ignore the fact that a 37 win (Pacers) team making into the playoffs is good? How about Philly 41-41 or new York 42-40 making it?  Yes it is more competitive now but the concept is still the same. The top teams are competitors and the bottom half makes it in just becuz you need 8 teams in the playoffs!

[wdleehi]

Oh Well last time I checked the West has won the last three championships! So by your standard the East is still weak right?

C'mon. That's just silly. There's no comparison, that was a horrendous conference for the East.

No what silly is to ignore the fact that a 37 win (Pacers) team making into the playoffs is good? How about Philly 41-41 or new York 42-40 making it?  Yes it is more competitive now but the concept is still the same. The top teams are competitors and the bottom half makes it in just becuz you need 8 teams in the playoffs!

The top half do not compare.


The top half of this season would put the top half of then at the bottom half. 

Throw in Atlanta, not all of the top 4 teams of then might not make the playoffs of today.



Not every playoff team is equal. 

[StartOrien]

Oh Well last time I checked the West has won the last three championships! So by your standard the East is still weak right?

C'mon. That's just silly. There's no comparison, that was a horrendous conference for the East.

No what silly is to ignore the fact that a 37 win (Pacers) team making into the playoffs is good? How about Philly 41-41 or new York 42-40 making it?  Yes it is more competitive now but the concept is still the same. The top teams are competitors and the bottom half makes it in just becuz you need 8 teams in the playoffs!

I'm sorry, but if you can't concede that point it's awfully hard to take your other points seriously.

[Fafnir]

Oh Well last time I checked the West has won the last three championships! So by your standard the East is still weak right?

C'mon. That's just silly. There's no comparison, that was a horrendous conference for the East.

No what silly is to ignore the fact that a 37 win (Pacers) team making into the playoffs is good? How about Philly 41-41 or new York 42-40 making it?  Yes it is more competitive now but the concept is still the same. The top teams are competitors and the bottom half makes it in just becuz you need 8 teams in the playoffs!

If you just look at point differential and SRS you can see how much weaker the East was that year.

The Nets had an SRS of 3.67 for the number one team in the East in 2001-2002.

The Celtics, Heat, Magic, and Bulls all had SRS of 4.83 or higher this past year. You can't just declare the top 4 seeds contenders every year. Sometimes the top contenders are all in the same conference.

[Moranis]

The same way Kidd at 28-30 was probably more consistent than Kidd at 24-25.

Kidd was always a pretty consistent player. Though you're right to say that in this comparison he had much more time to become the MVP type of player he was.

I hope Rondo can gain some of that consistency with years time. He'll certainly improve, but I don't think he'll be able to reach the same heights J-Kidd did in his prime.

  Here's Kidd's game logs from when he was Rondo's age. Take a look and let me know how consistent he was.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01/gamelog/1998/

To further boost that, here are each players' stats through their first 5 yrs in the league:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rondora01&y1=2011&p2=kiddja01&y2=1999

Very similar. Especially look at their Per-36 numbers.

Rk        Player From   To   G  GS    MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1     Jason Kidd 1995 1999 347 337 12844 4.8 11.9 .402 1.1 3.3 .325 2.5 3.4 .723 1.7 4.1 5.8 8.9 2.0 0.3 3.2 1.9 13.1
2    Rajon Rondo 2007 2011 384 331 12269 5.0 10.3 .486 0.2 0.6 .242 1.9 3.1 .622 1.3 3.7 5.0 8.5 2.2 0.2 2.9 2.6 12.0

And, both players took big strides forward in their 4th and 5th seasons.

Kidd had a much better shooting stroke and was actually improving in those numbers pretty much every year.  Rondo has essentially gotten worse and Rondo is playing on a  better team and with a much lesser role (which means not nearly as many bad shots need to be taken). 

Rondo is not Kidd.  Not even close.

[Moranis]

If you took the best players on each of the Celtics and Nets that year, I still don't think that's a Championship team.

This looks like a championship team to me, or certainly the potential to do it.  Obviously Shaq would have been a problem, but he was a problem for everyone at that time.

PG - Kidd, Anderson, Delk
SG - Pierce, Kittles
SF - Van Horn, Jefferson, Williams
PF - Martin, Walker, McCarty
C - Rogers, Battie

[ms.ball]

Oh Well last time I checked the West has won the last three championships! So by your standard the East is still weak right?

C'mon. That's just silly. There's no comparison, that was a horrendous conference for the East.

No what silly is to ignore the fact that a 37 win (Pacers) team making into the playoffs is good? How about Philly 41-41 or new York 42-40 making it?  Yes it is more competitive now but the concept is still the same. The top teams are competitors and the bottom half makes it in just becuz you need 8 teams in the playoffs!

The top half do not compare.


The top half of this season would put the top half of then at the bottom half. 

Throw in Atlanta, not all of the top 4 teams of then might not make the playoffs of today.



Not every playoff team is equal. 

Your most likely right. Same could be said about the western teams! I'm not saying that the East of then is on the same competitive level as it now.

[wdleehi]

If you took the best players on each of the Celtics and Nets that year, I still don't think that's a Championship team.

This looks like a championship team to me, or certainly the potential to do it.  Obviously Shaq would have been a problem, but he was a problem for everyone at that time.

PG - Kidd, Anderson, Delk
SG - Pierce, Kittles
SF - Van Horn, Jefferson, Williams
PF - Martin, Walker, McCarty
C - Rogers, Battie

You probably start Walker at SF instead of Van Horn.

A contender if they make a trade for a starting C.  (bye Kittles, Van Horn and Anderson)

[wdleehi]

Oh Well last time I checked the West has won the last three championships! So by your standard the East is still weak right?

C'mon. That's just silly. There's no comparison, that was a horrendous conference for the East.

No what silly is to ignore the fact that a 37 win (Pacers) team making into the playoffs is good? How about Philly 41-41 or new York 42-40 making it?  Yes it is more competitive now but the concept is still the same. The top teams are competitors and the bottom half makes it in just becuz you need 8 teams in the playoffs!

The top half do not compare.


The top half of this season would put the top half of then at the bottom half. 

Throw in Atlanta, not all of the top 4 teams of then might not make the playoffs of today.



Not every playoff team is equal. 

Your most likely right. Same could be said about the western teams! I'm not saying that the East of then is on the same competitive level as it now.

No.


They had the Shaq Lakers
The Duncan Spurs
The Kings with Webber

Teams that not only would be threats to win a title but possible be favorite to win.