Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?

[KCattheStripe]

Because if building a team around Jason Kidd or Gary Payton didn't yield a championship, it definitely won't happen with a team whose best player is Rondo.




You mention having "a couple great scorers," but a truly 'great scorer' is likely to be better than Rondo, and thus the centerpiece of the team.

As others have said, Rondo is very good as a #2 or #3.  Not a player you build around.

Kidd lead his team to two finals appearances when he was not that great of a scorer, but he was a great playmaker defense minded pg who could rebound alah Rondo

We will likely not see the East as weak as it was then as long as Rondo is a premier PG. Keep in mind NJ was at best the fifth best team in the NBA those years but the best in the east. The second best team in the east might have been the 7th or 8th best team overall.

Also keep in mind that they didn't win and were destroyed by Shaq and Duncan led teams.

[bfrombleacher]

Can we or can we not acquire pieces to construct a facsimile of the 2008 champs in the '12 free agency with OJ Mayo and Robin Lopez being a more athletic Ray Allen and a longer Perk respectively?

[Roy H.]

Can we or can we not acquire pieces to construct a facsimile of the 2008 champs in the '12 free agency with OJ Mayo and Robin Lopez being a more athletic Ray Allen and a longer Perk respectively?

It's not really realistic to project that team to mirror the '08 team.

Pierce is 4 years older.  KG is either gone, or 4 years older.  Lopez was terrible last year, and wasn't as good as Perk.  O.J. Mayo is nowhere near as good as Ray, and certainly doesn't have his clutch ability.

[Kane3387]

I laugh at that the notion that you can't build around a top 5 NBA point guard. Regardless of whether or not that pg's got a jumpshot. It's just silly. And

How many times has a team won a championship when their best player was their PG?

Isiah, Magic and....

Billups, Maybe Walt Frazier also.

[Kane3387]

Is Andrew Bynum considered an elite defensive post presence now?  Even if he was, he played 17 mpg and 24 mpg on those two championship squads.

Having good bigs who can control the paint is important.  Of course, having good guards who can attack the paint is also important.  Something like 20 out of the last 25 champions have had an all-star guard on their team (or in the case of the 2004 Pistons, a deserving all-star who was also Finals MVP).  That's more than the number who had an all-star big man during that time period.

(If we're going to treat all "bigs" as equivalent, then it probably makes sense to discuss guards the same way.  Jordan, Kobe, etc., are all similar to PGs in that the ball is almost always in their hands.)

Mavs: ?
Lakers: Kobe
Lakers: Kobe
Celtics: Ray (kind of a push)
Spurs: Parker/Manu
Heat: Wade
Spurs: Parker/Manu
Pistons: Rip/Billups
Lakers: Kobe
Again
Again
Spurs: ?
Bulls: Jordan
Bulls: Jordan
Bulls: Jordan
Rockets: ? Clyde Drexler
ROckets: ?

[Kane3387]

Because if building a team around Jason Kidd or Gary Payton didn't yield a championship, it definitely won't happen with a team whose best player is Rondo.




You mention having "a couple great scorers," but a truly 'great scorer' is likely to be better than Rondo, and thus the centerpiece of the team.

As others have said, Rondo is very good as a #2 or #3.  Not a player you build around.

Kidd lead his team to two finals appearances when he was not that great of a scorer, but he was a great playmaker defense minded pg who could rebound alah Rondo

We will likely not see the East as weak as it was then as long as Rondo is a premier PG. Keep in mind NJ was at best the fifth best team in the NBA those years but the best in the east. The second best team in the east might have been the 7th or 8th best team overall.

Also keep in mind that they didn't win and were destroyed by Shaq and Duncan led teams.

That typically happens when the fifth best team plays the first or second best team... Especially in a 2-3-2 format.

[Kane3387]

Can we or can we not acquire pieces to construct a facsimile of the 2008 champs in the '12 free agency with OJ Mayo and Robin Lopez being a more athletic Ray Allen and a longer Perk respectively?

It's not really realistic to project that team to mirror the '08 team.

Pierce is 4 years older.  KG is either gone, or 4 years older.  Lopez was terrible last year, and wasn't as good as Perk.  O.J. Mayo is nowhere near as good as Ray, and certainly doesn't have his clutch ability.

Agreed there is no comparison. You also can't duplicate the hunger and tenacity that team consistently played with on a nightly basis. That team collectively was of one mind and purpose. The will of Doc and the Big 3 really created a common purpose that took precedent for every individual player. Posey, Sam, PJ, Perk, and Rondo all played with the single purpose of winning a title.

To think Robin Lopez and OJ Mayo will be that way is foolish.

[Moranis]

Because if building a team around Jason Kidd or Gary Payton didn't yield a championship, it definitely won't happen with a team whose best player is Rondo.




You mention having "a couple great scorers," but a truly 'great scorer' is likely to be better than Rondo, and thus the centerpiece of the team.

As others have said, Rondo is very good as a #2 or #3.  Not a player you build around.

Kidd lead his team to two finals appearances when he was not that great of a scorer, but he was a great playmaker defense minded pg who could rebound alah Rondo

We will likely not see the East as weak as it was then as long as Rondo is a premier PG. Keep in mind NJ was at best the fifth best team in the NBA those years but the best in the east. The second best team in the east might have been the 7th or 8th best team overall.

Also keep in mind that they didn't win and were destroyed by Shaq and Duncan led teams.

The Lakers destroyed them, the Spurs not so much.  Of course the Lakers destroyed everyone except the Kings that year.

[Moranis]

Can we or can we not acquire pieces to construct a facsimile of the 2008 champs in the '12 free agency with OJ Mayo and Robin Lopez being a more athletic Ray Allen and a longer Perk respectively?

It's not really realistic to project that team to mirror the '08 team.

Pierce is 4 years older.  KG is either gone, or 4 years older.  Lopez was terrible last year, and wasn't as good as Perk.  O.J. Mayo is nowhere near as good as Ray, and certainly doesn't have his clutch ability.

I think Lopez would be pretty similar to Perkins on the Celtics (if KG is still around).  He isn't quite the banger Perk is, but he is more mobile and more a threat offensively.  If KG is still around, I think they compliment each other well.

Mayo isn't the shooter Allen is, no question, but he is much more athletic and provides different sort of matchup problems for opposing defenses. 

Rondo is better then he was.  Pierce is still money down the stretch, but Mayo would definitely have to provide more throughout the course of a game then Allen would have, and I'm  ok with that.

With all that said, that team isn't beating the Heat.  The Heat are just too good.  For the Celtics to beat the Heat in a series, they need a premier player, preferably in the post.  Dwight Howard would certainly fill that role.

[Roy H.]

Can we or can we not acquire pieces to construct a facsimile of the 2008 champs in the '12 free agency with OJ Mayo and Robin Lopez being a more athletic Ray Allen and a longer Perk respectively?

It's not really realistic to project that team to mirror the '08 team.

Pierce is 4 years older.  KG is either gone, or 4 years older.  Lopez was terrible last year, and wasn't as good as Perk.  O.J. Mayo is nowhere near as good as Ray, and certainly doesn't have his clutch ability.

I think Lopez would be pretty similar to Perkins on the Celtics (if KG is still around).  He isn't quite the banger Perk is, but he is more mobile and more a threat offensively.  If KG is still around, I think they compliment each other well.

Mayo isn't the shooter Allen is, no question, but he is much more athletic and provides different sort of matchup problems for opposing defenses. 

Rondo is better then he was.  Pierce is still money down the stretch, but Mayo would definitely have to provide more throughout the course of a game then Allen would have, and I'm  ok with that.

With all that said, that team isn't beating the Heat.  The Heat are just too good.  For the Celtics to beat the Heat in a series, they need a premier player, preferably in the post.  Dwight Howard would certainly fill that role.

Mayo is a headcase who scored 11.3 points last year, shot 40.7% from the field, and contributed very little in terms of rebounding, assists, or defense.  I just don't think he's ever going to be good enough to take Ray's role, let alone take over some of Pierce's, too.

As for Lopez, here are some stats poster The Walker Wiggle provided during this summer's CB Draft:

Synergy ranks him 460th in the NBA in points per play defense after he yielded a team-worst 1.08 ppp to go with 52.8 percent shooting.

Lopez was particularly bad in post-up situations, as opponents shot 59.3 percent against him, scored 55.6 percent of the time and averaged 1.07 ppp. He also struggled to defend isolation plays (1.09, 51.4 percent shooting, 339th) and spot-up shooters (1.1 ppp, 47.8 percent, 315th) presumably because he moved too slow closing out on the jumpers.

All this added up to Lopez recording a team-worst minus 8.09 adjusted plus/minus, in a season that was shockingly bad in all aspects aside from his improved mid-range jumper (which is not exactly why they drafted him).

“There’s certain expectations that you have for players, and you’ve got to be able to meet those expectations,” Gentry said. “We want him to be a better player offensively, defensively, and that’s what our expectations are.

He was banged up, and he was decent the year before, so there's still hope.  However, right now I think he's far behind Perk.

[BballTim]

In the past 20 years one team has won the NBA championship with arguably a point guard as it's best player (2004 Pistons.. and they break almost every rule) meanwhile the Rockets, Spurs, 3 peat Lakers, Celtics and Mavs won because their best player was a C/PF. The repeat Lakers second best player was Pau Gasol, 06 Heat had Shaq and the later three Peat Bulls had hall of famer Dennis Rodman at the 4.  Bigs are your building blocks, and everything else should be on the table to move for All NBA  calibre bigs.

  Your building blocks if you want to win titles over the last 20 years have been Kobe, Wade, MJ, Shaq, TD and Hakeem. Back it up another 6-8 years and you add Isiah, Magic and Bird. *Those* are your building blocks. Look at your "essential" players that weren't the best player on your team: Rodman, Gasol and a late career Shaq. You can go all out to acquire a player like that and build around them until they retire, clone them and build around them again and you get nothing. The titles came not from those players but from MJ, Kobe and Wade.

  Your "essential" list also contained Dirk and KG. Minny tried to build around KG for most of his career with no luck. And Dirk? Haha. Those Rockets teams from when MJ was retired would be the only title teams since the 70s the Mavs might be able to beat, and it's the first title of a, what, 13 year career? Right place right time, no more.

  By the way, Dirk's a pretty good illustration of how silly this is. The reason you need a good big on your team is for strong interior defense, tough rebounding and a low post scorer on offense. Dirk gives you none of these. As a player, he doesn't have much more in common with Hakeem or TD or Shaq than Pierce or Rondo.

[BballTim]

This debate does not go round and round. Unless you have Michael Jordan on your team, it is impossible to win the NBA title without all NBA calibre bigs. This is just fact, and even Jordan needed a hall of fame PF to win his second 3 peat.

  You also don't win titles without more than just an all nba caliber big. People get excited because you don't need a great pg. You also don't need a great center or pf or sf or sg. You need multiple pieces to win a title. The best player can be at any spot, so can the 2nd best and so on.

  Haha. I suppose if the best player in the game temporarily retires in his prime then all bets are off.

WOW!!!!

Yes, when a player who bucks historical trends left and right retires, those trends reassert themselves.

  Haha. That's what happens when I rush a response. These are historical trends, not hard and fast rules. They aren't met all the time because of this.

[BballTim]

Can we or can we not acquire pieces to construct a facsimile of the 2008 champs in the '12 free agency with OJ Mayo and Robin Lopez being a more athletic Ray Allen and a longer Perk respectively?

It's not really realistic to project that team to mirror the '08 team.

Pierce is 4 years older.  KG is either gone, or 4 years older.  Lopez was terrible last year, and wasn't as good as Perk.  O.J. Mayo is nowhere near as good as Ray, and certainly doesn't have his clutch ability.

  I think what you could do is mirror the teams of the last year or two, but with better athleticism to compensate for a shooting dropoff. It's a lot easier to replace the 2010-2011 versions of the big three than the 07-08 version.

[BballTim]

Can we or can we not acquire pieces to construct a facsimile of the 2008 champs in the '12 free agency with OJ Mayo and Robin Lopez being a more athletic Ray Allen and a longer Perk respectively?

It's not really realistic to project that team to mirror the '08 team.

Pierce is 4 years older.  KG is either gone, or 4 years older.  Lopez was terrible last year, and wasn't as good as Perk.  O.J. Mayo is nowhere near as good as Ray, and certainly doesn't have his clutch ability.

I think Lopez would be pretty similar to Perkins on the Celtics (if KG is still around).  He isn't quite the banger Perk is, but he is more mobile and more a threat offensively.  If KG is still around, I think they compliment each other well.

Mayo isn't the shooter Allen is, no question, but he is much more athletic and provides different sort of matchup problems for opposing defenses. 

Rondo is better then he was.  Pierce is still money down the stretch, but Mayo would definitely have to provide more throughout the course of a game then Allen would have, and I'm  ok with that.

With all that said, that team isn't beating the Heat.  The Heat are just too good.  For the Celtics to beat the Heat in a series, they need a premier player, preferably in the post.  Dwight Howard would certainly fill that role.

  When the Celts were healthy last year they were as good as the Mavs.

[CeltsRoxfan]

I can't believe you said Hakeem didn't deserve his championship. Championships never are undeserved, unless your the Lakers of 2010. MJ himself said:

If I had to pick a center [for an all-time best team], I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot? of people. And the reason I would take Olajuwon is very simple: he is so versatile because of what he can give you from that position....People don't realize he was in the top seven in steals. He always made great decisions on the court. For all facets of the game, I have to give it to him.

-- Michael Jordan

Hakeem worked hard for his rings and he doesn't deserve this BS about how the GOAT was retired. MJ was playing in the second championship, but got beat by Orlando.