Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?

[StartOrien]

[Fafnir]

I laugh at that the notion that you can't build around a top 5 NBA point guard. Regardless of whether or not that pg's got a jumpshot. It's just silly. And

How many times has a team won a championship when their best player was their PG?

Isiah, Magic and....

  Probably Chauncy. But don't forget, Isiah and Magic count for 7 titles. So 8 or so in the last 30 or so years.

I got Sheed over Billups, but they're awfully close so I'd concede that.

And in all three of those cases they played with All NBA calibre frontcourt players, which a top 5 pg can't win without. On the other hand, a all NBA calibre big can win without a top 5 pg.

  This debate goes round and round. You need a talent to win titles, no matter what the position. There are five spots on the court. Which of the five has to be a superstar for you to win a title? Which of the five kills your shot of winning a title if the player at that spot isn't elite?

Not a position, but 'big men'. If you don't have an elite defensive presence in the post, you don't win.

Mavs: Chandler
Lakers: Bynum
Lakers: Bynum
Celtics: PerkinsGarnett
Spurs: Duncan
Heat: Shaq
Spurs: Duncan
Pistons: Wallace
Lakers: Shaq
Again
Again
Spurs: Robinson
Bulls: Rodman
Bulls: Rodman
Bulls: Rodman
Rockets: Hakeem
ROckets: Hakeem

I don't know how much farther I need to go back.

IP, come on now! I shouldn't have to fix this.

[StartOrien]

I laugh at that the notion that you can't build around a top 5 NBA point guard. Regardless of whether or not that pg's got a jumpshot. It's just silly. And

How many times has a team won a championship when their best player was their PG?

Isiah, Magic and....

  Probably Chauncy. But don't forget, Isiah and Magic count for 7 titles. So 8 or so in the last 30 or so years.

I got Sheed over Billups, but they're awfully close so I'd concede that.

And in all three of those cases they played with All NBA calibre frontcourt players, which a top 5 pg can't win without. On the other hand, a all NBA calibre big can win without a top 5 pg.

  This debate goes round and round. You need a talent to win titles, no matter what the position. There are five spots on the court. Which of the five has to be a superstar for you to win a title? Which of the five kills your shot of winning a title if the player at that spot isn't elite?

Not a position, but 'big men'. If you don't have an elite defensive presence in the post, you don't win.

Mavs: Chandler
Lakers: Bynum
Lakers: Bynum
Celtics: PerkinsGarnett Scalabrine
Spurs: Duncan
Heat: Shaq
Spurs: Duncan
Pistons: Wallace
Lakers: Shaq
Again
Again
Spurs: Robinson
Bulls: Rodman
Bulls: Rodman
Bulls: Rodman
Rockets: Hakeem
ROckets: Hakeem

I don't know how much farther I need to go back.

IP, come on now! I shouldn't have to fix this.

Ugh, c'mon guys!

[Fafnir]

I laugh at that the notion that you can't build around a top 5 NBA point guard. Regardless of whether or not that pg's got a jumpshot. It's just silly. And

How many times has a team won a championship when their best player was their PG?

Isiah, Magic and....

  Probably Chauncy. But don't forget, Isiah and Magic count for 7 titles. So 8 or so in the last 30 or so years.

I got Sheed over Billups, but they're awfully close so I'd concede that.

And in all three of those cases they played with All NBA calibre frontcourt players, which a top 5 pg can't win without. On the other hand, a all NBA calibre big can win without a top 5 pg.

  This debate goes round and round. You need a talent to win titles, no matter what the position. There are five spots on the court. Which of the five has to be a superstar for you to win a title? Which of the five kills your shot of winning a title if the player at that spot isn't elite?

Not a position, but 'big men'. If you don't have an elite defensive presence in the post, you don't win.

Mavs: Chandler
Lakers: Bynum
Lakers: Bynum
Celtics: PerkinsGarnett Scalabrine
Spurs: Duncan
Heat: Shaq
Spurs: Duncan
Pistons: Wallace
Lakers: Shaq
Again
Again
Spurs: Robinson
Bulls: Rodman
Bulls: Rodman
Bulls: Rodman
Rockets: Hakeem
ROckets: Hakeem

I don't know how much farther I need to go back.

IP, come on now! I shouldn't have to fix this.

Ugh, c'mon guys!

Best defender in the league when it comes to defending the post from the bench.

[StartOrien]

LET ME HEAR IIIIIIIIIITTTTTT!!!!

[KCattheStripe]

Happy?

[StartOrien]

Quite.

[BballTim]

This debate does not go round and round. Unless you have Michael Jordan on your team, it is impossible to win the NBA title without all NBA calibre bigs. This is just fact, and even Jordan needed a hall of fame PF to win his second 3 peat.

  You also don't win titles without more than just an all nba caliber big. People get excited because you don't need a great pg. You also don't need a great center or pf or sf or sg. You need multiple pieces to win a title. The best player can be at any spot, so can the 2nd best and so on.

[BballTim]

I laugh at that the notion that you can't build around a top 5 NBA point guard. Regardless of whether or not that pg's got a jumpshot. It's just silly. And

How many times has a team won a championship when their best player was their PG?

Isiah, Magic and....

  Probably Chauncy. But don't forget, Isiah and Magic count for 7 titles. So 8 or so in the last 30 or so years.

I got Sheed over Billups, but they're awfully close so I'd concede that.

And in all three of those cases they played with All NBA calibre frontcourt players, which a top 5 pg can't win without. On the other hand, a all NBA calibre big can win without a top 5 pg.

  This debate goes round and round. You need a talent to win titles, no matter what the position. There are five spots on the court. Which of the five has to be a superstar for you to win a title? Which of the five kills your shot of winning a title if the player at that spot isn't elite?

Not a position, but 'big men'. If you don't have an elite defensive presence in the post, you don't win.

Mavs: Chandler
Lakers: Bynum
Lakers: Bynum
Celtics: Perkins
Spurs: Duncan
Heat: Shaq
Spurs: Duncan
Pistons: Wallace
Lakers: Shaq
Again
Again
Spurs: Robinson
Bulls: Rodman
Bulls: Rodman
Bulls: Rodman
Rockets: Hakeem
ROckets: Hakeem

I don't know how much farther I need to go back.

  Should I comment on the fact that you circumvented the question by combining two positions, or possibly the coincidence that you "happened" to stop your list with Hakeem?

[StartOrien]

I laugh at that the notion that you can't build around a top 5 NBA point guard. Regardless of whether or not that pg's got a jumpshot. It's just silly. And

How many times has a team won a championship when their best player was their PG?

Isiah, Magic and....

  Probably Chauncy. But don't forget, Isiah and Magic count for 7 titles. So 8 or so in the last 30 or so years.

I got Sheed over Billups, but they're awfully close so I'd concede that.

And in all three of those cases they played with All NBA calibre frontcourt players, which a top 5 pg can't win without. On the other hand, a all NBA calibre big can win without a top 5 pg.

  This debate goes round and round. You need a talent to win titles, no matter what the position. There are five spots on the court. Which of the five has to be a superstar for you to win a title? Which of the five kills your shot of winning a title if the player at that spot isn't elite?

Not a position, but 'big men'. If you don't have an elite defensive presence in the post, you don't win.

Mavs: Chandler
Lakers: Bynum
Lakers: Bynum
Celtics: Perkins
Spurs: Duncan
Heat: Shaq
Spurs: Duncan
Pistons: Wallace
Lakers: Shaq
Again
Again
Spurs: Robinson
Bulls: Rodman
Bulls: Rodman
Bulls: Rodman
Rockets: Hakeem
ROckets: Hakeem

I don't know how much farther I need to go back.

  Should I comment on the fact that you circumvented the question by combining two positions, or possibly the coincidence that you "happened" to stop your list with Hakeem?

You should read all the posts, and all of IP's post not just the list.

This debate does not go round and round. Unless you have Michael Jordan on your team, it is impossible to win the NBA title without all NBA calibre bigs. This is just fact, and even Jordan needed a hall of fame PF to win his second 3 peat.

[StartOrien]

This debate does not go round and round. Unless you have Michael Jordan on your team, it is impossible to win the NBA title without all NBA calibre bigs. This is just fact, and even Jordan needed a hall of fame PF to win his second 3 peat.

  You also don't win titles without more than just an all nba caliber big. People get excited because you don't need a great pg. You also don't need a great center or pf or sf or sg. You need multiple pieces to win a title. The best player can be at any spot, so can the 2nd best and so on.

[Moranis]

I laugh at that the notion that you can't build around a top 5 NBA point guard. Regardless of whether or not that pg's got a jumpshot. It's just silly. And

How many times has a team won a championship when their best player was their PG?

Isiah, Magic and....

  Probably Chauncy. But don't forget, Isiah and Magic count for 7 titles. So 8 or so in the last 30 or so years.

I got Sheed over Billups, but they're awfully close so I'd concede that.

When the Pistons won the title Billups was the 4th best player on that team behind Sheed, Ben, and Rip.

[Roy H.]

Is Andrew Bynum considered an elite defensive post presence now?  Even if he was, he played 17 mpg and 24 mpg on those two championship squads.

Having good bigs who can control the paint is important.  Of course, having good guards who can attack the paint is also important.  Something like 20 out of the last 25 champions have had an all-star guard on their team (or in the case of the 2004 Pistons, a deserving all-star who was also Finals MVP).  That's more than the number who had an all-star big man during that time period.

(If we're going to treat all "bigs" as equivalent, then it probably makes sense to discuss guards the same way.  Jordan, Kobe, etc., are all similar to PGs in that the ball is almost always in their hands.)

[StartOrien]

Is Andrew Bynum considered an elite defensive post presence now?  Even if he was, he played 17 mpg and 24 mpg on those two championship squads.

Having good bigs who can control the paint is important.  Of course, having good guards who can attack the paint is also important.  Something like 20 out of the last 25 champions have had an all-star guard on their team (or in the case of the 2004 Pistons, a deserving all-star who was also Finals MVP).  That's more than the number who had an all-star big man during that time period.

(If we're going to treat all "bigs" as equivalent, then it probably makes sense to discuss guards the same way.  Jordan, Kobe, etc., are all similar to PGs in that the ball is almost always in their hands.)

Mavs: ?
Lakers: Kobe
Lakers: Kobe
Celtics: Ray (kind of a push)
Spurs: Parker/Manu
Heat: Wade
Spurs: Parker/Manu
Pistons: Rip/Billups
Lakers: Kobe
Again
Again
Spurs: ?
Bulls: Jordan
Bulls: Jordan
Bulls: Jordan
Rockets: ?
ROckets: ?

[StartOrien]

But I don't think it's neccesarily fair to just lump guards the same way we'd do for defensive bigs.

It's not a bigs vs. guards argument, it's an argument on how valuable a pass-first point guard can be.