2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Fafnir]

Greenfaith,

In the minutes you'd use KG at the 3, what would the rest of your lineup look like?

C - Kareem/Ralph
PF - Jermaine O'Neal/Ben Wallace/Ralph
SF - KG

I think you make it too easy on defenses by going to this lineup.

If Ben Wallace/Ralph is PF is in there sure, but Kareem/Ralph are true Cs and O'Neal/KG both can shoot.

They can shoot, but for a SF they have some pretty limited range.

While you want your SF to be a 3 point shooter I think the 20 foot shots that KG takes and makes would work well enough.

[GreenFaith1819]

Greenfaith,

In the minutes you'd use KG at the 3, what would the rest of your lineup look like?

C - Kareem/Ralph
PF - Jermaine O'Neal/Ben Wallace/Ralph
SF - KG

I think you make it too easy on defenses by going to this lineup.

How?

By letting defenses pack in, and giving less space for Kareem to operate. Much easier for a weak side defender to help out.

Not if I use Faf's suggestion of:

C - Kareem
PF - JO or Ralph
SF - KG

Ralph Sampson had a very capable mid-range game and seemed to thrive in that environment, too.

Imagine an opposing PF being pulled out the lane to have to account for Ralph or JO?

[indeedproceed]

But the point I'm trying to drive home here is that Kevin Garnett could - and did - play multiple positions for limited minutes, and even extended minutes in some cases.

Maybe its a communication issue. Are you saying KG could, and did, defend all 5 positions, or are you saying KG could, and did, play both sides of the ball in a lineup spot that was traditionally reserved for a 3,2, or 1?

I have found 2 instances, both in 02-03 where KG played in a lineup that put him clearly at the 3, with all the responsibilities of the 3 on both sides of the ball.

 Hudson-Peeler-Garnett-Nesterovic-Woods

 Hudson-Szczerbiak-Garnett-Nesterovic-Woods

In those two lineups (accounting for a combined 3.29% of minny's total minutes, or 4% of KG's minutes played that year), KG was a SF, 100%.  

PF is clearly the best position for KG, especially on his later Minnesota teams.

That doesn't mean he's best used at PF full time in this fantasy excercise. Compare GF's team's options at PF/C to KG's Minnesota teams.

Just because KG didn't play SF in 2003-2004 doesn't mean he couldn't. He hadn't lost the skill and comfort of defending perimeter players in switches and still had the athleticism to do so.

Offensively his face up game and jump shot combined with his length and post game would give him more than enough pop to play SF and be very effective against a much smaller defender most games. His face up game would be diminished somewhat as would his driving, but his post game would be enhanced. Combine that with how talented he is as a passer I don't see the SF position as a stretch offensively or defensively.

Offensively KG shot 45% on jumpers (which we now know were 10-15fters) and 26% from 3 on the 43 attempts he tried.

Kareem was very talented, but Jermaine O'Neal was a 37% jumpshooter in 03-04, and we all know Ben Wallace's skill-set.

Along with Gary Payton and Rondo's limitations with their own respective jumpshots (or lack thereof), GF is looking at a lineup with 1 decent shooter from range, and not enough room in the paint to breath. Defensively it may work, but not offensively, at least here. There are lots of SF's who could defend KG on the perimeter, especially if they have the luxury of having Ben Wallace down low so they could sag off him to help.

[RebusRankin]

By 03/04 KG played almost exclusively at PF.

[RebusRankin]

Oh and can anybody match Miami with Wilt, McHale, Lanier, Haywood and Sikma at the 4 and 5 spots?

[StartOrien]

Oh and can anybody match Miami with Wilt, McHale, Lanier, Haywood and Sikma at the 4 and 5 spots?

I'm pretty fond of my Russell, Barkley, Mourning, Kemp front court. I'm not sure we could 'stop' you, but I think they're pretty comparable.

[GreenFaith1819]

But the point I'm trying to drive home here is that Kevin Garnett could - and did - play multiple positions for limited minutes, and even extended minutes in some cases.

Maybe its a communication issue. Are you saying KG could, and did, defend all 5 positions, or are you saying KG could, and did, play both sides of the ball in a lineup spot that was traditionally reserved for a 3,2, or 1?

I have found 2 instances, both in 02-03 where KG played in a lineup that put him clearly at the 3, with all the responsibilities of the 3 on both sides of the ball.

 Hudson-Peeler-Garnett-Nesterovic-Woods

 Hudson-Szczerbiak-Garnett-Nesterovic-Woods

In those two lineups (accounting for a combined 3.29% of minny's total minutes, or 4% of KG's minutes played that year), KG was a SF, 100%.  

PF is clearly the best position for KG, especially on his later Minnesota teams.

That doesn't mean he's best used at PF full time in this fantasy excercise. Compare GF's team's options at PF/C to KG's Minnesota teams.

Just because KG didn't play SF in 2003-2004 doesn't mean he couldn't. He hadn't lost the skill and comfort of defending perimeter players in switches and still had the athleticism to do so.

Offensively his face up game and jump shot combined with his length and post game would give him more than enough pop to play SF and be very effective against a much smaller defender most games. His face up game would be diminished somewhat as would his driving, but his post game would be enhanced. Combine that with how talented he is as a passer I don't see the SF position as a stretch offensively or defensively.

Offensively KG shot 45% on jumpers (which we now know were 10-15fters) and 26% from 3 on the 43 attempts he tried.

Kareem was very talented, but Jermaine O'Neal was a 37% jumpshooter in 03-04, and we all know Ben Wallace's skill-set.

Along with Gary Payton and Rondo's limitations with their own respective jumpshots (or lack thereof), GF is looking at a lineup with 1 decent shooter from range, and not enough room in the paint to breath. Defensively it may work, but not offensively, at least here. There are lots of SF's who could defend KG on the perimeter, especially if they have the luxury of having Ben Wallace down low so they could sag off him to help.

IP - where are u pulling up JO's shooting % from? On basketball-reference, he shot nearly 44% in 03-04.

And please remember - like I've stated multiple times here the last few days (Am I typing in Chinese? ) We have Michael Cooper and Eddie Jones that can spread the floor for us.

I think there is a bad climate here of trying to paint my team as a team that can't shoot.

As I checked just ONE roster today, folks here seem to love Clyde Drexler, and while he was a great player he didn't shot well - at all - from deep.

But yet there is some climate here that is focusing on only my roster?

I think I've acknowledged my own roster's weaknesses, but I'm not sure if every roster here has had a fine-tooth comb run over them.

Even JKidd was not a great shooter from deep.

[StartOrien]

And please remember - like I've stated multiple times here the last few days (Am I typing in Chinese? ) We have Michael Cooper and Eddie Jones that can spread the floor for us.

But you can't keep presenting new arguments or strategies, and then going back and saying 'Remember, we could also do this.' The arguments not that you don't have a good team whose very capabale of spreading the court, its that the KG/JO/Jabar lineup wouldn't work offensively.

[GreenFaith1819]

Even Grant Hill....we all love him and he's a boy scout and all - but he was a career 31% shooter from deep.

And he didn't seem to do much better in playoff settings.

At least Gary Payton elevated his game for the year I chose - 95-96 - and shot 486 FG% and 41% from deep.

[GreenFaith1819]

And please remember - like I've stated multiple times here the last few days (Am I typing in Chinese? ) We have Michael Cooper and Eddie Jones that can spread the floor for us.

But you can't keep presenting new arguments or strategies, and then going back and saying 'Remember, we could also do this.' The arguments not that you don't have a good team whose very capabale of spreading the court, its that the KG/JO/Jabar lineup wouldn't work offensively.

I thought I had explained that already? Did you read my post?

[StartOrien]

And please remember - like I've stated multiple times here the last few days (Am I typing in Chinese? ) We have Michael Cooper and Eddie Jones that can spread the floor for us.

But you can't keep presenting new arguments or strategies, and then going back and saying 'Remember, we could also do this.' The arguments not that you don't have a good team whose very capabale of spreading the court, its that the KG/JO/Jabar lineup wouldn't work offensively.

I thought I had explained that already? Did you read my post?

Naw, I just randomly selected a paragraph to counterpoint.

I don't think your team overall has an issue with spreading the court, or being poor shooters. But I do think your KG at the 3 lineup is an offensive disaster in this format.  

[GreenFaith1819]

And please remember - like I've stated multiple times here the last few days (Am I typing in Chinese? ) We have Michael Cooper and Eddie Jones that can spread the floor for us.

But you can't keep presenting new arguments or strategies, and then going back and saying 'Remember, we could also do this.' The arguments not that you don't have a good team whose very capabale of spreading the court, its that the KG/JO/Jabar lineup wouldn't work offensively.

I thought I had explained that already? Did you read my post?

Naw, I just randomly selected a paragraph to counterpoint.

I don't think your team overall has an issue with spreading the court, or being poor shooters. I think your KG at the 3 lineup is an offensive disaster in this format.  

But I think that's disrespectful to not read the entire post - or ignore someone's debate - or pick and chose sentences that you want to debate on.

But anyway I don't think KG at the 3 in some lineup changes would be an offensive disaster at all.

The man shoots from deep right now - for Boston - and we love him here.

[StartOrien]

And please remember - like I've stated multiple times here the last few days (Am I typing in Chinese? ) We have Michael Cooper and Eddie Jones that can spread the floor for us.

But you can't keep presenting new arguments or strategies, and then going back and saying 'Remember, we could also do this.' The arguments not that you don't have a good team whose very capabale of spreading the court, its that the KG/JO/Jabar lineup wouldn't work offensively.

I thought I had explained that already? Did you read my post?

Naw, I just randomly selected a paragraph to counterpoint.

I don't think your team overall has an issue with spreading the court, or being poor shooters. I think your KG at the 3 lineup is an offensive disaster in this format.  

But I think that's disrespectful to not read the entire post - or ignore someone's debate - or pick and chose sentences that you want to debate on.

But anyway I don't think KG at the 3 in some lineup changes would be an offensive disaster at all.

The man shoots from deep right now - for Boston - and we love him here.

I was being sarcastic, I read the post.

Offensively, your biggest advantage is having Kareem in the post. Why would you want to have two other players out there that need to start their offense within 15-18 feet from the basket? It makes it too easy for the PF to swing over and help, and the SF also has an easy rotation.

KG's midrange game is pretty good, but you want him catching the ball with his back to the basket or catching and shooting, and you want to limit his dribbling. That's just in general, let alone in a format when he's facing the NBA's greatest swing defenders.

Let's use Grant Hill as an example, despite that - as you rightfully pointed out - he's not a terrific 3 point shooter, he can initiate his offense from the 3 point line. Meaning he could catch it, potentially shoot it or start to dribble and operate.

That's not something KG would be able to do. He's not a 3 point threat, and you don't' want him initiating his offense there.

[Fafnir]

KG's midrange game is pretty good, but you want him catching the ball with his back to the basket or catching and shooting, and you want to limit his dribbling. That's just in general, let alone in a format when he's facing the NBA's greatest swing defenders.

Huh, why in the world would you want to limit KG's face up game in his prime?

I think you're conflating KG's offensive limitations post injury with how effective his game was back then.

[Roy H.]

But anyway I don't think KG at the 3 in some lineup changes would be an offensive disaster at all.

The man shoots from deep right now - for Boston - and we love him here.

Here's your problem, though:

Kareem doesn't shoot threes
JO doesn't shoot threes
KG doesn't shoot threes
Joe Dumars only attempted 29 threes the entire season you picked for him
Gary Payton shot 32.8% from three (a pretty poor number)

That means that almost your entire offense is being conducted within the three point circle.  That makes your offense less lethal (i.e., the most you hope for on most possessions is two, rather than three, points), and it makes it much easier to defend.  Your offense is giving itself much less room to operate.  That's why Danny and Doc always talk about "floor stretchers".  KG has good range on his jumper, but not being able to go out beyond the three point line hurts.