In an alternate universe where Miami make the finals, does LBJ choke like always

[Fafnir]

Funny - it didn't look that way at all in games 1-3

The won a competitive game 1, lost a competitive game 2, and then he hit every jump shot he took (which isn't normal he's a streaky shooter) in game 3.

I don't see where you get this quiting thing from the series. Combined with your MVP rants I just think you hate the guy, and the rest of your arguments come from that.

I've watched every game the guy has played vs the Celtics.

The difference in his effort in all games besides games 4-6 is striking, and quite obvious.

I haven't found a Celtics fan who can explain his reduction in effort realistically as somehow relating to what the Celtics did.

And I'm not sure I understand why you said I posted "MVP rants"...

I was refering to this post:

Big deal - those three make up almost 70% of the "numbers" on that flawed roster.

3 guys have been voted MVP three years in a row - back when MVP meant "best player":

Russell, Chamberlain, Bird.

LeBJ doesn't deserve a third in any way.

I wonder if the league will ever publish a definition of the award, to make it easier for the voters and fans to understand things like Nash winning 2 years straight...

I don't think you can argue that LeBron isn't a deserving and legit MVP for the past two years, and a canidate this year. Not without a healthy dose of hater. You can say you favor someone else, but to say "doesn't deserv a third in any way" reveals a bias that ignores his overall talent and production.

The problem with your challenge for me to "explain his effort" to you, is that judging a player's effort is subjective. I'll never be able to convince you he tried those game, you've already made up your mind.

[Fafnir]

To me, it's not the stats - it's the effort or lack thereof.

I don't understand why this is so hard for some celtics fans/LeBron fans to grasp...

Effort is a subjective call, we disagree on it.

[BballTim]

I haven't found a Celtics fan who can explain his reduction in effort realistically as somehow relating to what the Celtics did.

  It's been explained multiple times, you just don't want to hear it. Pierce is a pretty good man defender. TA was playing great defense. LBJ doesn't always have great success driving to the hoop against Perk and KG. They force him to take more shots than usual from the outside and pressure him into turning the ball over. In his 3 higher scoring games he was 7-13 on threes. On his 3 lower scoring games he was 0-13. That's a 21 point swing on the same number of shots, or 7 points a game in those games. If he'd hit his threes in games 4 and 5 his 18 ppg suddenly goes to a much more respectable 25 or so points a game and probably gets him a little more room to operate inside the arc.

[nba is the worst]

To me, it's not the stats - it's the effort or lack thereof.

I don't understand why this is so hard for some celtics fans/LeBron fans to grasp...

Effort is a subjective call, we disagree on it.

It's objective when a player stands near halfcourt while his teammates play 4 on 5 on offensive possessions.

It was obvious enough even for the talking heads to point out.

[Jesus Shuttlesworth #20]

If choking means averaging 40/15/15 then yes Lebron will choke horribly.

[mgent]

Maybe not - but he might quit in a couple of games like he did last year

  Yes, but those preseason games that he quit in don't count in the standings anyways.

I was talking about games 4 and 5 vs the celtics IN THE 2ND ROUND OF THE PLAYOFFS - you know, where he just stood around watching his teammates go 4 on 5, eventually leading his team to an 0-3 record after starting the series 2-1 (while being the B2B MVP on the B2B #1 seeded title favorite)...

  Pretty amazing trick, averaging 21/13/9 while standing around watching his teammates go 4 on 5.

  BTW, high seedings and MVPs, contrary to beliefs, do *not* guarantee championships, especially when facing a better team.

Well, the FACT is that in games 4 and 5, he avgd 18.5 ppg on 30.3 % shooting, 8 rebs, and 7 ast with 5 TOs...

 

  Sorry, I was looking at games 5 and 6. I keep forgetting that he played very hard, then he quit, then he started trying again. Still, you have to admit, 19/8/7 while you're standing around watching your teammates play is pretty good.

The words that come to my mind are pathetic, and unforgivable...

  Yeah, that's what a team like the Celts can do to someone in the playoffs..

Funny - it didn't look that way at all in games 1-3

  LeBron played better in games 1 and 3 than game 2. Obviously you can't shut him down every game, and obviously he can't score 40 points whenever he wants. In fact his statline in game 2 is almost identical to his statline in one of his "quit games. So, for those keeping score, I guess we're going with try/quit/try/quit/quit/try.

  In the last 3 years of playoffs LeBron has scored 25+ points 22 of 25 times against teams other than the Celts and 6 times in 13 games vs the Celts. Clearly the team's more capable of containing LeBron than you think. It wasn't just a two game aberration by a guy that routinely destroys the Celts.

To me, it's not the stats - it's the effort or lack thereof.

I don't understand why this is so hard for some celtics fans/LeBron fans to grasp...

We were making him miss shots, it's as simple as that.  Just look at his lowly FG%, he was still taking the shots.

[barefacedmonk]

We were making him miss shots, it's as simple as that.  Just look at his lowly FG%, he was still taking the shots.

He was only aiming for the shot clock...didn't you watch the games?..or was it his elbow?

It was a collective decision...LeBron and Wade made sure their teams lost in the playoffs against the Celtics...and Bosh made sure that his team didn't make the playoffs by sitting out of games towards the end of the season...just so they could all have an excuse to play in Miami...It all makes sense now.

[barefacedmonk]

To me, it's not the stats - it's the effort or lack thereof.

I don't understand why this is so hard for some celtics fans/LeBron fans to grasp...

For someone who scoffs and laughs at conspiracy theories, you seem to hold onto yours pretty tightly and convincingly. Funny.

[nba is the worst]

We were making him miss shots, it's as simple as that.  Just look at his lowly FG%, he was still taking the shots.
-=-=-

He only took 6 in the 4th Q of game 4, with his team down 74-72 going into the quarter.

He was 3-14 in game 5 (just a few less than his playoff avg shot attempts) on the team built around him.

How can you possibly credit the C's D for him standing around between halfcourt and the 3-pt line passively watching the game?

That's anything but "subjective" when it comes to evaluating effort.

"For someone who scoffs and laughs at conspiracy theories, you seem to hold onto yours pretty tightly and convincingly."

What does leBron's visible low effort compared to usual have to do with "conspiracy theories"?

[angryguy77]

We were making him miss shots, it's as simple as that.  Just look at his lowly FG%, he was still taking the shots.
-=-=-

He only took 6 in the 4th Q of game 4, with his team down 74-72 going into the quarter.

He was 3-14 in game 5 (just a few less than his playoff avg shot attempts) on the team built around him.

How can you possibly credit the C's D for him standing around between halfcourt and the 3-pt line passively watching the game?

That's anything but "subjective" whrn it comes to evaluating effort.

"For someone who scoffs and laughs at conspiracy theories, you seem to hold onto yours pretty tightly and convincingly."

What does leBron's visible low effort compared to usual have to do with "conspiracy theories"?

So what if he gave up. Ever think that maybe Boston broke him? Maybe he realized he couldn't beat us and realized his effort was for nothing. Either way, he played the way he did because of us.

[Celtics4ever]

That is my big problem with him.  Yes, he puts up astronomical numbers and the EFF stat seems tailored to make him look good.  But his shooting when it matters is attrocious.  This guy may score 40 here and there.   But more often he will shoot 6-24 or the like.  It isn't just against us.   His stats are also padded by a really high FTAs by Stern and the stat riggining refs.

Bottom line, is his teams get beaten a lot in the playoffs.  He hasn't been a year in and year out contender in the finals.   He got swept in the finals folks.  Why don't post those stats LeBron supporters?  Because you know how bad he played.  Oh, he has enough good games just to tempt one into thinking he is the real McCoy but it's fool's gold.   But what are his stats in elimination games?  

HE HAS NO HARDWARE to show for all his greatness.  We have no seen a player of his ilk since Dominique Wilkins.

If he gave up, he is no champion.  Real champs don't quit.   So what if he gave up?  I pay to see effort when I support a sports team.  I guess some of us are just there for the beer.   

[Fafnir]

That is my big problem with him.  Yes, he puts up astronomical numbers and the EFF stat seems tailored to make him look good.  But his shooting when it matters is attrocious.  This guy may score 40 here and there.   But more often he will shoot 6-24 or the like.  It isn't just against us.   His stats are also padded by a really high FTAs by Stern and the stat riggining refs.

His scoring in the "clutch" is usually quite good compared to others in the league. Especially when you factor in assists and FTAs. He's a fantastic finisher, the most frightening player to stop when the game is on the line.

[Fafnir]

We were making him miss shots, it's as simple as that.  Just look at his lowly FG%, he was still taking the shots.
-=-=-

He only took 6 in the 4th Q of game 4, with his team down 74-72 going into the quarter.

He was 3-14 in game 5 (just a few less than his playoff avg shot attempts) on the team built around him.

How can you possibly credit the C's D for him standing around between halfcourt and the 3-pt line passively watching the game?

That's anything but "subjective" whrn it comes to evaluating effort.

"For someone who scoffs and laughs at conspiracy theories, you seem to hold onto yours pretty tightly and convincingly."

What does leBron's visible low effort compared to usual have to do with "conspiracy theories"?

His usage in game 5 was 25%, about 5 to 6% less than his playoff average. That's a lower number, but not a sign that he quit. He got to the line 12 times after all.

He had a "bad" game, would you rather he force bad shots while he wasn't feeling it? I don't like LeBron but the guy gets critized no matter what he does, because he didn't win.

After the fact people create the narative to say why he failed.

[Celtics4ever]

Then post his NBA finals stats Fafnir and his elimination games stats.  Not just the ones that support your arguments and stick to the playoffs not the stat padding regular season.  I would but I have to go watch my kid play ball, presently.  I dare you.  

[nba is the worst]

We were making him miss shots, it's as simple as that.  Just look at his lowly FG%, he was still taking the shots.
-=-=-

He only took 6 in the 4th Q of game 4, with his team down 74-72 going into the quarter.

He was 3-14 in game 5 (just a few less than his playoff avg shot attempts) on the team built around him.

How can you possibly credit the C's D for him standing around between halfcourt and the 3-pt line passively watching the game?

That's anything but "subjective" whrn it comes to evaluating effort.

"For someone who scoffs and laughs at conspiracy theories, you seem to hold onto yours pretty tightly and convincingly."

What does leBron's visible low effort compared to usual have to do with "conspiracy theories"?

His usage in game 5 was 25%, about 5 to 6% less than his playoff average. That's a lower number, but not a sign that he quit. He got to the line 12 times after all.

He had a "bad" game, would you rather he force bad shots while he wasn't feeling it? I don't like LeBron but the guy gets critized no matter what he does, because he didn't win.

After the fact people create the narative to say why he failed.

I see no response to the observation that he stood near halfcourt on multiple offensive posssessions, on the weak side, and never got involved in the play.

Tell me which stat covers that.