In an alternate universe where Miami make the finals, does LBJ choke like always

[indeedproceed]

 I'd wonder whether you ever saw more than 5 minute clips of Bird if you think LeBron has a more well-rounded game than he did. Bird was the better shooter, better passer, better rebounder.

Well, I do love the way you characterized that, and ignored the fundamental point I was making, but I think you're still missing my point about Larry and LeBron.

LeBron is a better finisher, he's a better transition player, and he's the best passer from the forward position since Bird. Bird is a better shooter, but I wonder if he's really a significantly better scorer. They just went about it in different ways.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=birdla01&y1=1987&p2=jamesle01&y2=2011

Here is a comparison of the two, through their first 8 seasons (I don't know any fairer way to do it..you can't compare Larry though age 26, because it would favor LeBron, and you can't compare the two through their entire career, because I don't really know who that would favor).

LeBron's : 47.6% FG, 33.1% 3pt, 7.0 ast, 7.1 brds, 3.3 TO's, 27.7 pts
Bird's same: 50% FG 36.8% 3pt 6.1 ast, 10.4 brds, 3.2 TO's, 24.4 pts

LeBron's stats are inflated, because his teams asked him to do more, but Bird's efficiency is probably a bit inflated, because he was asked to do less. Bird is hands down the better rebounding 3 in his era though.

And besides, I am not saying LeBron is a better player than Bird..I've never said that. What I am saying is that I don't think Larry's body + skillset could've carried LeBron's cavs teams as far as LeBron did. Being better able to elevate a team that is terrible to better heights is not the same as saying one player is unequivocally better than the other player. My point was that LeBron couldn't win a chip with those Cavs teams, but neither would MJ or Bird.

[BballTim]

 I'd wonder whether you ever saw more than 5 minute clips of Bird if you think LeBron has a more well-rounded game than he did. Bird was the better shooter, better passer, better rebounder.

Well, I do love the way you characterized that, and ignored the fundamental point I was making, but I think you're still missing my point about Larry and LeBron.

LeBron is a better finisher, he's a better transition player, and he's the best passer from the forward position since Bird. Bird is a better shooter, but I wonder if he's really a significantly better scorer. They just went about it in different ways.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=birdla01&y1=1987&p2=jamesle01&y2=2011

Here is a comparison of the two, through their first 8 seasons (I don't know any fairer way to do it..you can't compare Larry though age 26, because it would favor LeBron, and you can't compare the two through their entire career, because I don't really know who that would favor).

LeBron's : 47.6% FG, 33.1% 3pt, 7.0 ast, 7.1 brds, 3.3 TO's, 27.7 pts
Bird's same: 50% FG 36.8% 3pt 6.1 ast, 10.4 brds, 3.2 TO's, 24.4 pts

LeBron's stats are inflated, because his teams asked him to do more, but Bird's efficiency is probably a bit inflated, because he was asked to do less. Bird is hands down the better rebounding 3 in his era though.

And besides, I am not saying LeBron is a better player than Bird..I've never said that. What I am saying is that I don't think Larry's body + skillset could've carried LeBron's cavs teams as far as LeBron did. Being better able to elevate a team that is terrible to better heights is not the same as saying one player is unequivocally better than the other player. My point was that LeBron couldn't win a chip with those Cavs teams, but neither would MJ or Bird.

  A couple of points about scoring: A)Bird could have scored much more than he did. Look no further than his 60 point game a week or so after McHale scored 56, or his "left-handed" game when he scored 40 or so. and B)LeBron's scoring totals are greatly inflated by those teams he was on. He's scoring about 3.5 points less and getting 1.2 assists less than he did last year, and that kind of drop is somewhat rare for an MVP level player in his mid 20s. Also, LeBron's a better finisher but his offensive game is much less versatile than Larry's was. You can limit LeBron's effectiveness if you can keep him from getting to the rim. It's harder to limit Bird's effectiveness.

[indeedproceed]

I'm still interested to hear whether you think Bird or Jordan could've taken LeBron's Cavs teams farther in their first 8 year than LeBron did..but I don't disagree with a lot of your points below:

  A couple of points about scoring: A)Bird could have scored much more than he did. Look no further than his 60 point game a week or so after McHale scored 56, or his "left-handed" game when he scored 40 or so.

Agree. But, in the same token, if Bird needed to score more every night, wouldn't his %'s have dropped? Both guys are averaging around the same amount of FGA's attempted per contest through their first 8 seasons..and I don't think it is too far a leap to say that LeBron's %'s are lower because he was often forced into taking contested shots that he wouldn't have needed to with a supporting cast similar to Bird's. LeBron took WAY more 3s over the same time period, and the scoring differential (where LeBron's is higher) is mostly because of FT's attempted.

B)LeBron's scoring totals are greatly inflated by those teams he was on. He's scoring about 3.5 points less and getting 1.2 assists less than he did last year, and that kind of drop is somewhat rare for an MVP level player in his mid 20s. Also, LeBron's a better finisher but his offensive game is much less versatile than Larry's was. You can limit LeBron's effectiveness if you can keep him from getting to the rim. It's harder to limit Bird's effectiveness.

This is a true point, but I think there is some historical context that needs to be added. Defensive rules when Bird played would've made LeBron's playing style a serious hazard to his health. He would've gotten less FT attempts, and harder fouls when he did reach the line.

But, by the same token, if Larry at his athleticism needed to contend with modern defenders, I think he'd have a much harder time scoring. Guys are bigger, faster and stronger now. Larry a better shot at an open look than a player today would simply because guys like Shane Battier, or Luc Richard Mbah A Moute weren't being groomed for the positions they play now. They would've been PF's. Now, you got guys like James Posey (from 4 yrs ago..not this James Posey), or even guys like Quintin Ross or Paul Pierce with his new devotion to defense that would've made life significantly harder for Bird.

I'm not saying Larry couldn't have adapted, but I think it is a two way street in some ways when talking about scoring between eras.

In terms of LeBron's drop in scoring this season, he's shooting 2 less FGA's. That's to be expected, playing next to Bosh and Wade, right?

[BballTim]

I'm still interested to hear whether you think Bird or Jordan could've taken LeBron's Cavs teams farther in their first 8 year than LeBron did..but I don't disagree with a lot of your points below:

  A couple of points about scoring: A)Bird could have scored much more than he did. Look no further than his 60 point game a week or so after McHale scored 56, or his "left-handed" game when he scored 40 or so.

Agree. But, in the same token, if Bird needed to score more every night, wouldn't his %'s have dropped? Both guys are averaging around the same amount of FGA's attempted per contest through their first 8 seasons..and I don't think it is too far a leap to say that LeBron's %'s are lower because he was often forced into taking contested shots that he wouldn't have needed to with a supporting cast similar to Bird's. LeBron took WAY more 3s over the same time period, and the scoring differential (where LeBron's is higher) is mostly because of FT's attempted.

B)LeBron's scoring totals are greatly inflated by those teams he was on. He's scoring about 3.5 points less and getting 1.2 assists less than he did last year, and that kind of drop is somewhat rare for an MVP level player in his mid 20s. Also, LeBron's a better finisher but his offensive game is much less versatile than Larry's was. You can limit LeBron's effectiveness if you can keep him from getting to the rim. It's harder to limit Bird's effectiveness.

This is a true point, but I think there is some historical context that needs to be added. Defensive rules when Bird played would've made LeBron's playing style a serious hazard to his health. He would've gotten less FT attempts, and harder fouls when he did reach the line.

But, by the same token, if Larry at his athleticism needed to contend with modern defenders, I think he'd have a much harder time scoring. Guys are bigger, faster and stronger now. Larry a better shot at an open look than a player today would simply because guys like Shane Battier, or Luc Richard Mbah A Moute weren't being groomed for the positions they play now. They would've been PF's. Now, you got guys like James Posey (from 4 yrs ago..not this James Posey), or even guys like Quintin Ross or Paul Pierce with his new devotion to defense that would've made life significantly harder for Bird.

I'm not saying Larry couldn't have adapted, but I think it is a two way street in some ways when talking about scoring between eras.

In terms of LeBron's drop in scoring this season, he's shooting 2 less FGA's. That's to be expected, playing next to Bosh and Wade, right?

  As for Bird carrying a team, the closest comparison to what LeBron's done would be the 90-91 team, with Reggie (a good player) that started Brian Shaw, Kevin Gamble and a 37 year old Parrish. Their bench was mainly a hobbled McHale, Dee Brown and Ed Pinckney. Not exactly world beaters, but before Bird hurt his back (about 30-35 games in) they were the best team in the league, and still won 56 despite Bird's back woes. This was an older Bird, physically much worse than his prime. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a mid-80s Bird would have been able to easily get 10 more wins with that team.

  I don't think that Bird's fg% would drop like LeBron's because it would be much harder to force him into contested shots. LeBron's options with the ball aren't the same as Bird's.

  And, lastly, Bird didn't play in the 60s. Are players really that much more athletic than Nique, Dr J, Jordan, Drexler, Kersey and the like?

[indeedproceed]

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a mid-80s Bird would have been able to easily get 10 more wins with that team.

That would mean the Cavs would've won 71, 76, 55, and 60 games over the past 4 seasons...I think that's pretty unreasonable, especially the 71 and 76 game seasons.

  I don't think that Bird's fg% would drop like LeBron's because it would be much harder to force him into contested shots. LeBron's options with the ball aren't the same as Bird's.

Well, agree to disagree I suppose. When a scorer's volume goes up dramatically from what he's used to, I think its pretty common to see the FG% drop some. I'm not saying Bird would be a 40% shooter or anything, but I think a number comparable to LeBron's 47% is pretty expected.

  And, lastly, Bird didn't play in the 60s. Are players really that much more athletic than Nique, Dr J, Jordan, Drexler, Kersey and the like?

**** WARNING: THIS OPINION IS NOT BASED ON ACTUAL FILM! I WAS BORN IN 1983, AND I WAS NOT ANALYZING BASKETBALL GAMES BEFORE THE AGE OF 10! ****

Eh, I think the types of players and playing style are different. Bird didn't have the tenacious wing defenders that we have today, and a lot of the stars were more focused on offense than defense. Nique, Alex English, Bernard King, even the aging Dr. J...lanky athletic defenders didn't get the PT they get now, mostly because the game was called differently, and being able to do all the little things Battier does now, they weren't always needed to gain a defensive edge.

The best defenders of that era (Michael Cooper for instance) are now guys Bird would face 5 nights out of 7 now..Thabo Sefelosha, Battier, LRMAM, Posey, Ross, Dahntay Jones, Nic Batum, LeBron, Artest, Bruce Bowen, Gerald Wallace, Jared Dudley, all these guys are the long athletic defenders that would harass Bird. I'm not saying the guy wouldn't score, but he played in an era where the pace was faster, the guys were slower, and defense just wasn't as good as it is now night in, night out.

Sure there were standout defensive players, or teams, but by the whole I think the league now plays better defense.

Like I say though, others definitely have more insight into this, as I'm getting all my stuff from writers and stats.

[LB3533]

To answer the topic's question.....

You can choke in the Finals and still win the chip and Finals MVP - see last year's NBA Champions and Final's MVP Kobe Bryant.

[BballTim]

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a mid-80s Bird would have been able to easily get 10 more wins with that team.

That would mean the Cavs would've won 71, 76, 55, and 60 games over the past 4 seasons...I think that's pretty unreasonable, especially the 71 and 76 game seasons.

  I don't think that Bird's fg% would drop like LeBron's because it would be much harder to force him into contested shots. LeBron's options with the ball aren't the same as Bird's.

Well, agree to disagree I suppose. When a scorer's volume goes up dramatically from what he's used to, I think its pretty common to see the FG% drop some. I'm not saying Bird would be a 40% shooter or anything, but I think a number comparable to LeBron's 47% is pretty expected.

  And, lastly, Bird didn't play in the 60s. Are players really that much more athletic than Nique, Dr J, Jordan, Drexler, Kersey and the like?

**** WARNING: THIS OPINION IS NOT BASED ON ACTUAL FILM! I WAS BORN IN 1983, AND I WAS NOT ANALYZING BASKETBALL GAMES BEFORE THE AGE OF 10! ****

Eh, I think the types of players and playing style are different. Bird didn't have the tenacious wing defenders that we have today, and a lot of the stars were more focused on offense than defense. Nique, Alex English, Bernard King, even the aging Dr. J...lanky athletic defenders didn't get the PT they get now, mostly because the game was called differently, and being able to do all the little things Battier does now, they weren't always needed to gain a defensive edge.

The best defenders of that era (Michael Cooper for instance) are now guys Bird would face 5 nights out of 7 now..Thabo Sefelosha, Battier, LRMAM, Posey, Ross, Dahntay Jones, Nic Batum, LeBron, Artest, Bruce Bowen, Gerald Wallace, Jared Dudley, all these guys are the long athletic defenders that would harass Bird. I'm not saying the guy wouldn't score, but he played in an era where the pace was faster, the guys were slower, and defense just wasn't as good as it is now night in, night out.

Sure there were standout defensive players, or teams, but by the whole I think the league now plays better defense.

Like I say though, others definitely have more insight into this, as I'm getting all my stuff from writers and stats.

  A) I was saying that Bird's 90-91 team (Lewis, a hobbled McHale and 3 mediocre starters) would have easily 10 more games with a healthy Bird that was in his prime, not that the Cavs teams would have easily won 10 more.

  B) LeBron's great at getting to the rim, but he's not great at other things. The more he tries to score the more defenses load up against the drive and the harder time he has. Bird literally had about every shot in the book.

  C) The pace is slower but the defensive efficiencies are almost identical to what they were then. The defense was "better" before changes like hand checking.

[mgent]

To answer the topic's question.....

You can choke in the Finals and still win the chip and Finals MVP - see last year's NBA Champions and Final's MVP Kobe Bryant.

Touche.

[indeedproceed]

  A) I was saying that Bird's 90-91 team (Lewis, a hobbled McHale and 3 mediocre starters) would have easily 10 more games with a healthy Bird that was in his prime, not that the Cavs teams would have easily won 10 more.

My mistake.

  B) LeBron's great at getting to the rim, but he's not great at other things. The more he tries to score the more defenses load up against the drive and the harder time he has. Bird literally had about every shot in the book.

They way I think about it is that LeBron is as good at getting to the rim as Larry Bird was at shooting, and LeBron is about as good at shooting as Larry Bird was at getting to the rim. The guy had the total package, I'm not denying that, but LeBron can shoot. He's hitting 35% of this 3's so far this season..he doesn't have a back to the basket game yet..because he doesn't need it really. I mean..if you're scoring nearly 30 points a game (which he was in Cleveland), its hard to say you're a one-dimensional scorer, or that you're really that severely flawed.

  C) The pace is slower but the defensive efficiencies are almost identical to what they were then. The defense was "better" before changes like hand checking.

I can't speak to the defensive efficiencies, but I think that without hand checking, if the defensive efficiencies are the same, that almost validates my point. If you can hold a team to 100 pts in 100 possessions without hand checking, doesn't that mean that it would be even better with hand checking?

[BballTim]

  A) I was saying that Bird's 90-91 team (Lewis, a hobbled McHale and 3 mediocre starters) would have easily 10 more games with a healthy Bird that was in his prime, not that the Cavs teams would have easily won 10 more.

My mistake.

  B) LeBron's great at getting to the rim, but he's not great at other things. The more he tries to score the more defenses load up against the drive and the harder time he has. Bird literally had about every shot in the book.

They way I think about it is that LeBron is as good at getting to the rim as Larry Bird was at shooting, and LeBron is about as good at shooting as Larry Bird was at getting to the rim. The guy had the total package, I'm not denying that, but LeBron can shoot. He's hitting 35% of this 3's so far this season..he doesn't have a back to the basket game yet..because he doesn't need it really. I mean..if you're scoring nearly 30 points a game (which he was in Cleveland), its hard to say you're a one-dimensional scorer, or that you're really that severely flawed.

  C) The pace is slower but the defensive efficiencies are almost identical to what they were then. The defense was "better" before changes like hand checking.

I can't speak to the defensive efficiencies, but I think that without hand checking, if the defensive efficiencies are the same, that almost validates my point. If you can hold a team to 100 pts in 100 possessions without hand checking, doesn't that mean that it would be even better with hand checking?

  Bird was better at driving than LeBron was at outside shooting, although I think James is getting better. But Bird had to deal with hand checking. What if the players guarding him had to give him *more* room?

[indeedproceed]

  Bird was better at driving than LeBron was at outside shooting, although I think James is getting better. But Bird had to deal with hand checking. What if the players guarding him had to give him *more* room?

That's a pretty interesting point I had not considered.

[BballTim]

**** WARNING: THIS OPINION IS NOT BASED ON ACTUAL FILM! I WAS BORN IN 1983, AND I WAS NOT ANALYZING BASKETBALL GAMES BEFORE THE AGE OF 10! ****

  By the way, I forgot to mention this, but thanks for flaunting your youth. I don't feel any older having read this...

[indeedproceed]

**** WARNING: THIS OPINION IS NOT BASED ON ACTUAL FILM! I WAS BORN IN 1983, AND I WAS NOT ANALYZING BASKETBALL GAMES BEFORE THE AGE OF 10! ****

  By the way, I forgot to mention this, but thanks for flaunting your youth. I don't feel any older having read this...

Haha..not my intention, just making sure that I'm not implying I've watched tons of tape of 80's basketball games making me some kinda expert or something. TBH, my mental image of Larry Bird is much more folk hero than actual player, I found a website a few years ago that allowed me to watch entire games that Bird played in, but 90% of what I've seen are highlights.

[LB3533]

  Bird was better at driving than LeBron was at outside shooting, although I think James is getting better. But Bird had to deal with hand checking. What if the players guarding him had to give him *more* room?

That's a pretty interesting point I had not considered.

Uh, why would Bird defenders want to give Bird more room?

[indeedproceed]

  Bird was better at driving than LeBron was at outside shooting, although I think James is getting better. But Bird had to deal with hand checking. What if the players guarding him had to give him *more* room?

That's a pretty interesting point I had not considered.

Uh, why would Bird defenders want to give Bird more room?

He's saying if modern hand-check rules applied, defenders wouldn't be able to touch Bird on the perimeter, which would make his jumper and up-fake 1,000 times more lethal.