In an alternate universe where Miami make the finals, does LBJ choke like always

[LB3533]

  Bird was better at driving than LeBron was at outside shooting, although I think James is getting better. But Bird had to deal with hand checking. What if the players guarding him had to give him *more* room?

That's a pretty interesting point I had not considered.

Uh, why would Bird defenders want to give Bird more room?

He's saying if modern hand-check rules applied, defenders wouldn't be able to touch Bird on the perimeter, which would make his jumper and up-fake 1,000 times more lethal.

Well I am not so sure, hand-checking seems to prevent drives not really prevent jump shooting.

Defenders would still be playing Bird to shoot, the non-hand-checking rules of today's game would just allow Bird to become a better driver.

[indeedproceed]

  Bird was better at driving than LeBron was at outside shooting, although I think James is getting better. But Bird had to deal with hand checking. What if the players guarding him had to give him *more* room?

That's a pretty interesting point I had not considered.

Uh, why would Bird defenders want to give Bird more room?

He's saying if modern hand-check rules applied, defenders wouldn't be able to touch Bird on the perimeter, which would make his jumper and up-fake 1,000 times more lethal.

Well I am not so sure, hand-checking seems to prevent drives not really prevent jump shooting.

Defenders would still be playing Bird to shoot, the non-hand-checking rules of today's game would just allow Bird to become a better driver.

I think it would work both ways. It wouldn't affect his catch+shoots, but shooting off the dribble, any kind of triple threat situation, Bird would be that much more effective.

[BballTim]

  Bird was better at driving than LeBron was at outside shooting, although I think James is getting better. But Bird had to deal with hand checking. What if the players guarding him had to give him *more* room?

That's a pretty interesting point I had not considered.

Uh, why would Bird defenders want to give Bird more room?

He's saying if modern hand-check rules applied, defenders wouldn't be able to touch Bird on the perimeter, which would make his jumper and up-fake 1,000 times more lethal.

Well I am not so sure, hand-checking seems to prevent drives not really prevent jump shooting.

Defenders would still be playing Bird to shoot, the non-hand-checking rules of today's game would just allow Bird to become a better driver.

  Yes, the hand check prevents people from driving. But it allows you to play closer to your man. It's harder for him to beat you off the dribble. If the guy covering Larry had to stay a few steps back to keep Bird in front of him then Larry could hit those shots all day. Get too close and Bird gets past you. He's not going to take it to the rim every time like LeBron but he has a vast array of shots from near the basket and he's one of the best interior passers of all time if not the best.

[indeedproceed]

  Bird was better at driving than LeBron was at outside shooting, although I think James is getting better. But Bird had to deal with hand checking. What if the players guarding him had to give him *more* room?

That's a pretty interesting point I had not considered.

Uh, why would Bird defenders want to give Bird more room?

He's saying if modern hand-check rules applied, defenders wouldn't be able to touch Bird on the perimeter, which would make his jumper and up-fake 1,000 times more lethal.

Well I am not so sure, hand-checking seems to prevent drives not really prevent jump shooting.

Defenders would still be playing Bird to shoot, the non-hand-checking rules of today's game would just allow Bird to become a better driver.

  Yes, the hand check prevents people from driving. But it allows you to play closer to your man. It's harder for him to beat you off the dribble. If the guy covering Larry had to stay a few steps back to keep Bird in front of him then Larry could hit those shots all day. Get too close and Bird gets past you. He's not going to take it to the rim every time like LeBron but he has a vast array of shots from near the basket and he's one of the best interior passers of all time if not the best.

If you want proof of this, you can look to an unlikely source in Matt Bonner.

He's been a 3pt specialist his whole life, and he doesn't have the best athletic gifts or fastest first step, but because the guy has to play off him just a tiny bit, he gets more space.

And also because of this, because his shot is so effective (50% from 3 this year), he can upfake his man and drive past him. Bonner can't finish at the rim, but he's got an okay midrange shot and a nice floater, which means his man has to respect that distance, in case he does drive.

If a guy like Matt Bonner can carve out a role on a contender with that skill set, Bird could make it work for him.

[Celtics4ever]

Larry could finish any way possible folks except he didn't do the above the rim stuff that much.  But I 've seen him dunk quite a few times.  He drove a lot and was adept at using either hand. 

Bird is in many ways the Anti-LeBron.  He's coaxed more out of his limited athletic ability than anyone I ever seem.  He never coasted because he had to play hard given his limited athletic ability and it led to many back injuries.  His basketball IQ was superb.  Likewise, his skill level was out of this world because it had to be.  His determination level was a thing of legend.  I would take Larry Bird in say 81-84 over any year of LeBron. 

There is a reason they do not allow hand checking these days and its because many players can't shoot that well.   The early entry has hurt the play level.  Players are better athletes than ever but many of them have flawed shots.   Stern is always one step ahead of the game.  He developed the no charge circle for Shaq to promote his game back in the day.  The no hand checks serve to disquise generally poor jump shooters in today's game.

[LB3533]

So, would this mean if in today's game: hand-checking was allowed, we'd see even lower shooting percentages across the board in the entire league?

I mean back in the 80's when hand-checking was allowed, shooting percentages in the range of 50-55 were common place.

In today's game you'd be lucky to shoot 45% or something?

[BballTim]

So, would this mean if in today's game: hand-checking was allowed, we'd see even lower shooting percentages across the board in the entire league?

I mean back in the 80's when hand-checking was allowed, shooting percentages in the range of 50-55 were common place.

In today's game you'd be lucky to shoot 45% or something?

  Apples and oranges, obviously.

[Celtics4ever]

Lucky for us we live in this universe.   LeBron clearly was passing the ball around today avoiding a lot of shots in the fourth.  When the game was on the like, guess what he did?   Yep, he CHOKED on one of the FTs.   Wade and LeBron both shot under 50% and each had 6 and 4 TO's respectively.

It almost seemed to me that LeBron avoided the ball down the stretch.   He passed off a bunch in the last half of the quarter.  He is a great player don't get me wrong but real champions don't hide in the 4th or dump it off when the game is on the line....

[BballTim]

Lucky for us we live in this universe.   LeBron clearly was passing the ball around today avoiding a lot of shots in the fourth.  When the game was on the like, guess what he did?   Yep, he CHOKED on one of the FTs.   Wade and LeBron both shot under 50% and each had 6 and 4 TO's respectively.

It almost seemed to me that LeBron avoided the ball down the stretch.   He passed off a bunch in the last half of the quarter.  He is a great player don't get me wrong but real champions don't hide in the 4th or dump it off when the game is on the line....

  LeBron did miss a foul shot, but I don't think it's amazing that a player who's game is based on getting to the basket has trouble taking over a game against the Celts.

[nba is the worst]

Lucky for us we live in this universe.   LeBron clearly was passing the ball around today avoiding a lot of shots in the fourth.  When the game was on the like, guess what he did?   Yep, he CHOKED on one of the FTs.   Wade and LeBron both shot under 50% and each had 6 and 4 TO's respectively.

It almost seemed to me that LeBron avoided the ball down the stretch.   He passed off a bunch in the last half of the quarter.  He is a great player don't get me wrong but real champions don't hide in the 4th or dump it off when the game is on the line....

  LeBron did miss a foul shot, but I don't think it's amazing that a player who's game is based on getting to the basket has trouble taking over a game against the Celts.

And he pushed off with the left arm and was given the call as Pierce blocked his shot.

it was nice to see that the heatles don't raise their game in tight ones yet, though

[mgent]

LeBron has scored a total of 8 points in 5 4th quarters.

[Celtics4ever]

Another nail in the he rises to occasion arguments. 

But you know at the end of the day, he has the same life he has always had an over-rated loser and choke artist extraordinaire....

[mgent]

2011 Season average:  27ppg

2011 Playoff average: 18ppg

Largest drop by ANY player EVER.


I'd like everyone who said that LeBron NEVER chokes to reverse their statement (yes Roy H., even you said LeBron has no history of choking).

[Celtics4ever]

Although we lost to them this year in the playoffs we are the team that did them in.   I know its crazy but we were their finals, they steamed rolled over Chicago from momentum after beating us and woke up.   They celebrated like they had won the NBA finals when they beat us and they didn't have the necessary mindset to beat Dallas.   That and LeFail was his usual self.

[Roy H.]

I'd like everyone who said that LeBron NEVER chokes to reverse their statement (yes Roy H., even you said LeBron has no history of choking).

I haven't reviewed my comments, but I'm pretty positive that I didn't say Lebron *never* chokes.  Every player has bad games, often at big moments.  However, I don't believe that Lebron *always*, or even *consistently*, chokes, either.

Lebron didn't do himself any favors in the Finals.  He was passive on both offense and defense, and at times looke scared to shoot (often passing instead).  Even more than the rumored "quitting" last year, Lebron looked like he wilted under pressure this year.

However, Lebron has a history of playing very well in big games, as well.  He carried the Cavs to the Finals with some unbelievable efforts, he was phenomenal in Game 7 against the Celts in 2008, he hit some huge shots against both the Celts and Bulls this year.  

It's hard for me to say that a guy who has been the most "clutch" regular season scorer late in games in recent seasons plus a guy who has had many huge playoff games equals a guy who "always" chokes.  He doesn't.  Lucky for the rest of the league, he massively underperformed in the Finals this year.  However, I'm not sure that we can rely on that happening every season.