In an alternate universe where Miami make the finals, does LBJ choke like always

[Fafnir]

Then post his NBA finals stats Fafnir and his elimination games stats.  Not just the ones that support your arguments and stick to the playoffs not the stat padding regular season.  I would but I have to go watch my kid play ball, presently.  I dare you.  

You want his elimination stats?

I will point out that ever game matters in the playoffs, its strange you accuse me of "just the ones that support your arguments" and then demand I cherry pick the data for you. By definition elimination games are games that the Cavs lost, so you're demanding a biased sample.

He averages 30 PPG, 9 RPG, 7 APG, 1.2 SPG, 4.6 TOVPG TS% .498

His playoff averages: 29.3 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 7.3 APG, 1.6 SPG 3.7 TOV PG TS% .561

[Fafnir]

We were making him miss shots, it's as simple as that.  Just look at his lowly FG%, he was still taking the shots.
-=-=-

He only took 6 in the 4th Q of game 4, with his team down 74-72 going into the quarter.

He was 3-14 in game 5 (just a few less than his playoff avg shot attempts) on the team built around him.

How can you possibly credit the C's D for him standing around between halfcourt and the 3-pt line passively watching the game?

That's anything but "subjective" whrn it comes to evaluating effort.

"For someone who scoffs and laughs at conspiracy theories, you seem to hold onto yours pretty tightly and convincingly."

What does leBron's visible low effort compared to usual have to do with "conspiracy theories"?

His usage in game 5 was 25%, about 5 to 6% less than his playoff average. That's a lower number, but not a sign that he quit. He got to the line 12 times after all.

He had a "bad" game, would you rather he force bad shots while he wasn't feeling it? I don't like LeBron but the guy gets critized no matter what he does, because he didn't win.

After the fact people create the narative to say why he failed.

I see no response to the observation that he stood near halfcourt on multiple offensive posssessions, on the weak side, and never got involved in the play.

Tell me which stat covers that.

Oh he definitely did that in the third quarter on a few possessions, but then again so do Rondo/Pierce at times. Is he supposed to take every shot? I bet if he did you'd kill him for that too.

Tell me how many possessions he did that for if you're going to try to use that as evidence back it up.

[nba is the worst]

We were making him miss shots, it's as simple as that.  Just look at his lowly FG%, he was still taking the shots.
-=-=-

He only took 6 in the 4th Q of game 4, with his team down 74-72 going into the quarter.

He was 3-14 in game 5 (just a few less than his playoff avg shot attempts) on the team built around him.

How can you possibly credit the C's D for him standing around between halfcourt and the 3-pt line passively watching the game?

That's anything but "subjective" whrn it comes to evaluating effort.

"For someone who scoffs and laughs at conspiracy theories, you seem to hold onto yours pretty tightly and convincingly."

What does leBron's visible low effort compared to usual have to do with "conspiracy theories"?

His usage in game 5 was 25%, about 5 to 6% less than his playoff average. That's a lower number, but not a sign that he quit. He got to the line 12 times after all.

He had a "bad" game, would you rather he force bad shots while he wasn't feeling it? I don't like LeBron but the guy gets critized no matter what he does, because he didn't win.

After the fact people create the narative to say why he failed.

I see no response to the observation that he stood near halfcourt on multiple offensive posssessions, on the weak side, and never got involved in the play.

Tell me which stat covers that.

Oh he definitely did that in the third quarter on a few possessions, but then again so do Rondo/Pierce at times. Is he supposed to take every shot? I bet if he did you'd kill him for that too.

Tell me how many possessions he did that for if you're going to try to use that as evidence back it up.

Hard to believe I'm reading this.

When has Rondo or Paul EVER stood near halfcourt, completely withdrawn from the offense, in a playoff game?

(I'll wait)...

[Fafnir]

We were making him miss shots, it's as simple as that.  Just look at his lowly FG%, he was still taking the shots.
-=-=-

He only took 6 in the 4th Q of game 4, with his team down 74-72 going into the quarter.

He was 3-14 in game 5 (just a few less than his playoff avg shot attempts) on the team built around him.

How can you possibly credit the C's D for him standing around between halfcourt and the 3-pt line passively watching the game?

That's anything but "subjective" whrn it comes to evaluating effort.

"For someone who scoffs and laughs at conspiracy theories, you seem to hold onto yours pretty tightly and convincingly."

What does leBron's visible low effort compared to usual have to do with "conspiracy theories"?

His usage in game 5 was 25%, about 5 to 6% less than his playoff average. That's a lower number, but not a sign that he quit. He got to the line 12 times after all.

He had a "bad" game, would you rather he force bad shots while he wasn't feeling it? I don't like LeBron but the guy gets critized no matter what he does, because he didn't win.

After the fact people create the narative to say why he failed.

I see no response to the observation that he stood near halfcourt on multiple offensive posssessions, on the weak side, and never got involved in the play.

Tell me which stat covers that.

Oh he definitely did that in the third quarter on a few possessions, but then again so do Rondo/Pierce at times. Is he supposed to take every shot? I bet if he did you'd kill him for that too.

Tell me how many possessions he did that for if you're going to try to use that as evidence back it up.

Hard to believe I'm reading this.

When has Rondo or Paul EVER stood near halfcourt, completely withdrawn from the offense, in a playoff game?

(I'll wait)...

Rondo frequently would just stand near the baseline waiting for Kobe to leave him to try and cut to the hoop. Just standing there hoping his man would forget him.

Pierce often stands at the three point line to provide spacing.

[barefacedmonk]

I find the rumour that Delonte and Gloria James had an affair more believeable than LeBron quit/didn't want to win/choked/seemed disinterested against the Celtics.

[nba is the worst]

We were making him miss shots, it's as simple as that.  Just look at his lowly FG%, he was still taking the shots.
-=-=-

He only took 6 in the 4th Q of game 4, with his team down 74-72 going into the quarter.

He was 3-14 in game 5 (just a few less than his playoff avg shot attempts) on the team built around him.

How can you possibly credit the C's D for him standing around between halfcourt and the 3-pt line passively watching the game?

That's anything but "subjective" whrn it comes to evaluating effort.

"For someone who scoffs and laughs at conspiracy theories, you seem to hold onto yours pretty tightly and convincingly."

What does leBron's visible low effort compared to usual have to do with "conspiracy theories"?

His usage in game 5 was 25%, about 5 to 6% less than his playoff average. That's a lower number, but not a sign that he quit. He got to the line 12 times after all.

He had a "bad" game, would you rather he force bad shots while he wasn't feeling it? I don't like LeBron but the guy gets critized no matter what he does, because he didn't win.

After the fact people create the narative to say why he failed.

I see no response to the observation that he stood near halfcourt on multiple offensive posssessions, on the weak side, and never got involved in the play.

Tell me which stat covers that.

Oh he definitely did that in the third quarter on a few possessions, but then again so do Rondo/Pierce at times. Is he supposed to take every shot? I bet if he did you'd kill him for that too.

Tell me how many possessions he did that for if you're going to try to use that as evidence back it up.

Hard to believe I'm reading this.

When has Rondo or Paul EVER stood near halfcourt, completely withdrawn from the offense, in a playoff game?

(I'll wait)...

Rondo frequently would just stand near the baseline waiting for Kobe to leave him to try and cut to the hoop. Just standing there hoping his man would forget him.

Pierce often stands at the three point line to provide spacing.

Those examples prove my point, and fail to support yours.

 

[MattG12]

I find the rumour that Delonte and Gloria James had an affair more believeable than LeBron quit/didn't want to win/choked/seemed disinterested against the Celtics.

I believe them both... but then again I also believe in the loch ness monster, aliens, bigfoot, the abominable snowman, and ghosts... so take that for what it's worth.

[barefacedmonk]

I find the rumour that Delonte and Gloria James had an affair more believeable than LeBron quit/didn't want to win/choked/seemed disinterested against the Celtics.

I believe them both... but then again I also believe in the loch ness monster, aliens, bigfoot, the abominable snowman, and ghosts... so take that for what it's worth.

Hey..the loch ness monster is real...I believe that too.

[BballTim]

Then post his NBA finals stats Fafnir and his elimination games stats.  Not just the ones that support your arguments and stick to the playoffs not the stat padding regular season.  I would but I have to go watch my kid play ball, presently.  I dare you.  

  Dare? That's weak.

  I triple dog dare you, Fafnir.

[BballTim]

We were making him miss shots, it's as simple as that.  Just look at his lowly FG%, he was still taking the shots.
-=-=-

He only took 6 in the 4th Q of game 4, with his team down 74-72 going into the quarter.

He was 3-14 in game 5 (just a few less than his playoff avg shot attempts) on the team built around him.

How can you possibly credit the C's D for him standing around between halfcourt and the 3-pt line passively watching the game?

That's anything but "subjective" whrn it comes to evaluating effort.

"For someone who scoffs and laughs at conspiracy theories, you seem to hold onto yours pretty tightly and convincingly."

What does leBron's visible low effort compared to usual have to do with "conspiracy theories"?

His usage in game 5 was 25%, about 5 to 6% less than his playoff average. That's a lower number, but not a sign that he quit. He got to the line 12 times after all.

He had a "bad" game, would you rather he force bad shots while he wasn't feeling it? I don't like LeBron but the guy gets critized no matter what he does, because he didn't win.

After the fact people create the narative to say why he failed.

I see no response to the observation that he stood near halfcourt on multiple offensive posssessions, on the weak side, and never got involved in the play.

Tell me which stat covers that.

Oh he definitely did that in the third quarter on a few possessions, but then again so do Rondo/Pierce at times. Is he supposed to take every shot? I bet if he did you'd kill him for that too.

Tell me how many possessions he did that for if you're going to try to use that as evidence back it up.

Hard to believe I'm reading this.

When has Rondo or Paul EVER stood near halfcourt, completely withdrawn from the offense, in a playoff game?

(I'll wait)...

Rondo frequently would just stand near the baseline waiting for Kobe to leave him to try and cut to the hoop. Just standing there hoping his man would forget him.

Pierce often stands at the three point line to provide spacing.

  He's not just hoping Kobe forgets about him, he's keeping Kobe from roaming too far away from him.

[Moranis]

I know people think Lebron quit so he could say, hey this team sucks that's why I'm leaving, but I just don't buy that motive.  If Lebron won a title in Cleveland, that city would have walked him out of town for ending their nearly 6 decades of title frustration.  He easily could have left a hero instead of the villain he now is.  Winning would have been the greatest thing in the world he could have done, and you don't win if you quit.

[Celtics4ever]

Fafnir you can call me Sigurd or Gram perhaps after this post.  I have Norse blood in my viens perhaps we could meet for a Holmgang, JK.

His stats in the games that matter, the NBA finals.  

MPG 42.5
FG% .356
3P% .200
FT% .690
RPG 7.00
APG  6.8
SPG 1.00
BPG  .50
TO  5.75
PF  2.00
PPG 22.0


If this isn't choking then Mamma Cass is smiling down on him, JK she died of heart attack.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/stats/2006/nba_finals_stats.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_Finals

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2007/

I don't want to see TS% but rather his FG percentage.  I didn't seperate stats unlike you that would prove or disprove my argument.  TS is a bullcrap stat that average FT% in with the others which you knew would up your argument.   I said he shot poorly and implied inefficient scoring.  Oh, he puts up stats but he puts up bad ones too that you do not post because it would point out the flaws in your arguements.  here is a more accurate stat his basic FG percentage.  I didn't ommit the good data like you tried to omit the bad.  What is next his eFG%?

He shoots FG.459% in playoffs for his career and it's below his career average of .476%.  Three Point percentage is .316% and  Turnovers are 3.73 TO.

Lets look at elimination games when he team was on the wire.  
          games  PPG     FG%     3p%    TO
2005-06    2     29.5    .529%  .08%    4
2006-07    3     22.3    .335%  .162%   3.6
2007-08    2     36      .477%  .386%   1.5  
2008-09    1     25      .400%  .25%    3
2009-2010  1     22.1    .381%  .50%    9
Composite  9     26.9    .424%  .275%   6

Now one will note I did not post his RPG or his APG.  I think he is great in both categories and I am not arguing that point.  He is a stat machine.  But when not disguised under TS% his shooting when it counts is lackluster at best.  Note a real drop of his career averages and an increase in TO's both choke indicators.

Moranis, he isn't capable of taking a team to the finals and winning.   Bird and MJ shot .50% for their careers.  This kid can't shoot like the all time greats.  He didn't throw the game, the real LeBron showed up.

[Fafnir]

Fafnir you can call me Sigurd or Gram perhaps after this post.  I have Norse blood in my viens perhaps we could meet for a Holmgang, JK.

His stats in the games that matter, the NBA finals.  

MPG 42.5
FG% .356
3P% .200
FT% .690
RPG 7.00
APG  6.8
SPG 1.00
BPG  .50
TO  5.75
PF  2.00
PPG 22.0


If this isn't choking then Mamma Cass is smiling down on him, JK she died of heart attack.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/stats/2006/nba_finals_stats.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_Finals

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2007/

I don't want to see TS% but rather his FG percentage.  I didn't seperate stats unlike you that would prove or disprove my argument.  TS is a bullcrap stat that average FT% in with the others which you knew would up your argument.   I said he shot poorly and implied inefficient scoring.  Oh, he puts up stats but he puts up bad ones too that you do not post because it would point out the flaws in your arguements.  here is a more accurate stat his basic FG percentage.  I didn't ommit the good data like you tried to omit the bad.  What is next his eFG%?

He shoots FG.459% in playoffs for his career and it's below his career average of .476%.  Three Point percentage is .316% and  Turnovers are 3.73 TO.

Lets look at elimination games when he team was on the wire.  
          games  PPG     FG%     3p%    TO
2005-06    2     29.5    .529%  .08%    4
2006-07    3     22.3    .335%  .162%   3.6
2007-08    2     36      .477%  .386%   1.5  
2008-09    1     25      .400%  .25%    3
2009-2010  1     22.1    .381%  .50%    9
Composite  9     26.9    .424%  .275%   6

Now one will note I did not post his RPG or his APG.  I think he is great in both categories and I am not arguing that point.  He is a stat machine.  But when not disguised under TS% his shooting when it counts is lackluster at best.  Note a real drop of his career averages and an increase in TO's both choke indicators.

Moranis, he isn't capable of taking a team to the finals.   Bird and MJ shot .50% for their careers.  This kid can't shoot like the all time greats.  He didn't throw the game, the real LeBron showed up.

Why do you insist that FG% is a better metric than TS%? Drawing fouls, hitting 3s, and making free throws all count.

I'll also add that go compare those two Finals teams, the 06-07 Cavs/Spurs. The fact that the Cavs got swept isn't surprising, they had a vastly inferior roster. LeBron didn't play great (like he had the previous three rounds), but he was playing an elite Spurs defense and team.

I think games matter before the NBA Finals, and before you can be eliminated too, so I doubt we're going to see eye to eye on this.

[BballTim]

Fafnir you can call me Sigurd or Gram perhaps after this post.  I have Norse blood in my viens perhaps we could meet for a Holmgang, JK.

His stats in the games that matter, the NBA finals.  

MPG 42.5
FG% .356
3P% .200
FT% .690
RPG 7.00
APG  6.8
SPG 1.00
BPG  .50
TO  5.75
PF  2.00
PPG 22.0


If this isn't choking then Mamma Cass is smiling down on him, JK she died of heart attack.

  If you come up with enough definitions for choking eventually you'll find one that includes LeBron and excludes noted chokers like Larry/MJ/Magic. Maybe.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/stats/2006/nba_finals_stats.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_Finals

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2007/

I don't want to see TS% but rather his FG percentage.  I didn't seperate stats unlike you that would prove or disprove my argument.  TS is a bullcrap stat that average FT% in with the others which you knew would up your argument.   I said he shot poorly and implied inefficient scoring.  Oh, he puts up stats but he puts up bad ones too that you do not post because it would point out the flaws in your arguements.  here is a more accurate stat his basic FG percentage.  I didn't ommit the good data like you tried to omit the bad.  What is next his eFG%?

  Seriously? If a player drives 10 times, gets fouled 6 times and makes the free throws and hits 2 of his other 4 shots, what's more important? The 2-4 from the field or the 16 points off the 10 drives?

He shoots FG.459% in playoffs for his career and it's below his career average of .476%.  Three Point percentage is .316% and  Turnovers are 3.73 TO.

Lets look at elimination games when he team was on the wire.  
          games  PPG     FG%     3p%    TO
2005-06    2     29.5    .529%  .08%    4
2006-07    3     22.3    .335%  .162%   3.6
2007-08    2     36      .477%  .386%   1.5  
2008-09    1     25      .400%  .25%    3
2009-2010  1     22.1    .381%  .50%    9
Composite  9     26.9    .424%  .275%   6

Now one will note I did not post his RPG or his APG.  I think he is great in both categories and I am not arguing that point.  He is a stat machine.  But when not disguised under TS% his shooting when it counts is lackluster at best.  Note a real drop of his career averages and an increase in TO's both choke indicators.

  You'd have to look at a number of other players to have any idea what a real drop indicates. Maybe it indicates that you're looking mainly at games vs the Celts, Spurs, Magic and Pistons and he's not playing a number of games against the Clippers, Nets, Kings, etc like his career averages indicate. And your decisions about which stats are important are clearly based on whether they show LeBron in a good or bad light.

Moranis, he isn't capable of taking a team to the finals.   Bird and MJ shot .50% for their careers.  This kid can't shoot like the all time greats.  He didn't throw the game, the real LeBron showed up.

  I love the argument that players aren't capable of doing things that they've already done.

[Moranis]

Moranis, he isn't capable of taking a team to the finals and winning.   Bird and MJ shot .50% for their careers.  This kid can't shoot like the all time greats.  He didn't throw the game, the real LeBron showed up.

Larry Bird career 2PT% 50.89%, career 3PT% 37.6%

Michael Jordan career 2PT% 51.02%, career 3PT% 32.7%

Lebron James career 2PT% 51.31%, career 3PT% 33.1%

I'll give you Lebron's career FT% of 74.4% doesn't measure up to Michael or Larry who were both in the mid to upper 80's, but Lebron is every bit the shooter that Larry and Michael were.