Author Topic: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.  (Read 29321 times)

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Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #90 on: March 04, 2010, 03:55:11 PM »

Offline Chief

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These assertions that playing time develops players are just wrong

Teaching and practice develops players, not playing time

Giddens and Walker will not get better with playing time, they will only get exposed

Young players have to earn playing time not be given it to develop

I keep reading this notion that if only Walker or Giddens got playing time then they would develop

That is patently WRONG on EVERY level

Game playing time does not develop players that aren't good enough to earn the playing time on their own, and obviously neither has if Scal and Tony are being trotted out in front of them all the time

Bill Walker would like to argue your point now. :)
Let him. I would argue that Tony Allen average 20 PPG, 4 APG, 7 RPG and 5 STPG for a stretch in 2007 when given playing time on a team equally as bad as the Knicks where management and the coaching staff could care less if the team played defense.

Does that make Tony Allen some great player that developed because he played?

Is Tony still putting up those numbers?

Is Mike D'Antoni such a great coach that he was able to elicit this hidden talent that the Celtics didn't know about?

Walker was expected to play the role of a defensive wing here

If we wanted him playing the role of unconscious shooting scorer that doesn't have to play defense we would have benched Pierce and started him and kissed our championship aspirations away

I guess we had Ray Allen and Eddie House to do that.
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
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Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2010, 04:38:47 PM »

Offline tommyvon

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Bill Walker had 22 last night vs Detroit, E house had 17.


hmmmm

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2010, 06:26:39 PM »

Offline FatjohnReturns

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Both will be lucky to be in the NBA in two years.



Name one player that didn't earn play time under Doc that is playing a meaningful role in the NBA right now? 



Does it take Doc time to get young players on the court?  In most cases, yes. 


Have JR and Walker have those opportunities the successful late picks have?  Yes.

Did they take advantage of those opportunities?  Nope. 

Walker did not get enough playing time to say he didnt take advantage of those opportunities. He actually played so little that he was "playing scared" You honestly believe with Marquis out, Kg and Pierce hobbeled that there is any logical reason that Walker couldnt get in the game. Practice is important but players gain confidence from playing. He never played.

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2010, 07:25:56 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Both will be lucky to be in the NBA in two years.



Name one player that didn't earn play time under Doc that is playing a meaningful role in the NBA right now? 



Does it take Doc time to get young players on the court?  In most cases, yes. 


Have JR and Walker have those opportunities the successful late picks have?  Yes.

Did they take advantage of those opportunities?  Nope. 

Walker did not get enough playing time to say he didnt take advantage of those opportunities. He actually played so little that he was "playing scared" You honestly believe with Marquis out, Kg and Pierce hobbeled that there is any logical reason that Walker couldnt get in the game. Practice is important but players gain confidence from playing. He never played.


He didn't do enough for the coach to put him in. 


Practice is what gives the young players an opportunity. 

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2010, 07:39:41 PM »

Offline Chief

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Both will be lucky to be in the NBA in two years.



Name one player that didn't earn play time under Doc that is playing a meaningful role in the NBA right now? 



Does it take Doc time to get young players on the court?  In most cases, yes. 


Have JR and Walker have those opportunities the successful late picks have?  Yes.

Did they take advantage of those opportunities?  Nope. 

Walker did not get enough playing time to say he didnt take advantage of those opportunities. He actually played so little that he was "playing scared" You honestly believe with Marquis out, Kg and Pierce hobbeled that there is any logical reason that Walker couldnt get in the game. Practice is important but players gain confidence from playing. He never played.


He didn't do enough for the coach to put him in. 


Practice is what gives the young players an opportunity. 


Doc is blind when it comes to talent and young players.
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
Larry Bird

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #95 on: March 05, 2010, 09:04:04 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Doc is blind when it comes to talent and young players.
Really?

Name the young players who've done anything after Doc didn't play them. Meanwhile lets look at the rookies he's played:

To further illustrate Atzar's and my point:

Orlando 1999-2000: Chucky Atkins and Corey Maggete both rookies played 19.8 17.8 MPG respectively.

Orlando 2000-2001: Mike Miller a rookie plays 29.1 MPG

Orlando 2001-2002: Jeryl Sasser and Steven Hunter are rookies but don't really play

Orlando 2002-2003: Gordan Giricek (European player)and Drew Gooden were rookies and played. Pat Burke and Ryan Humphrey did not.

Orlando 2003-2004: Fired after 11 games.

Boston 2004-2005: Tony Allen and Al Jefferson both played

Boston 2005-2006: Gomes and Green both played, though not a ton still a lot more than Walker/Giddens

Boston 2006-2007: Powe and Rondo played

Boston 2007-2008: Glen Davis played

Boston 2008-2009: Bill Walker and J.R. Giddens did not play

Boston 2009-2010: Lester Hudson did not play

Doc plays roookies plenty, when they don't suck.

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #96 on: March 05, 2010, 09:06:51 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Doc is blind when it comes to talent and young players.
Really?

Name the young players who've done anything after Doc didn't play them. Meanwhile lets look at the rookies he's played:

To further illustrate Atzar's and my point:

Orlando 1999-2000: Chucky Atkins and Corey Maggete both rookies played 19.8 17.8 MPG respectively.

Orlando 2000-2001: Mike Miller a rookie plays 29.1 MPG

Orlando 2001-2002: Jeryl Sasser and Steven Hunter are rookies but don't really play

Orlando 2002-2003: Gordan Giricek (European player)and Drew Gooden were rookies and played. Pat Burke and Ryan Humphrey did not.

Orlando 2003-2004: Fired after 11 games.

Boston 2004-2005: Tony Allen and Al Jefferson both played

Boston 2005-2006: Gomes and Green both played, though not a ton still a lot more than Walker/Giddens

Boston 2006-2007: Powe and Rondo played

Boston 2007-2008: Glen Davis played

Boston 2008-2009: Bill Walker and J.R. Giddens did not play

Boston 2009-2010: Lester Hudson did not play

Doc plays roookies plenty, when they don't suck.


You forgot West in 04/05

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #97 on: March 05, 2010, 09:11:33 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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You forgot West in 04/05
Good catch, I also didn't mention Perkins during his rookie year. Of course I don't think anyone will argue that the chubby HS Perkins was ready.

Like I said then and will say now, Doc plays rookies plenty if they can actually play!

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #98 on: March 05, 2010, 09:23:36 AM »

Offline Chief

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Doc has to figure out how to win championships and develop a player or two at the same time. Even if the team is loaded at that position. If I were grading, I'd give Doc a F when it comes to this. On the flip side, Phil Jackson is the king at this. He'd get an A.
 
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
Larry Bird

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #99 on: March 05, 2010, 09:24:49 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Doc has to figure out how to win championships and develop a player or two at the same time. Even if the team is loaded at that position. If I were grading, I'd give Doc a F when it comes to this. On the flip side, Phil Jackson is the king at this. He'd get an A.
 
When has Phil Jackson done this?

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #100 on: March 05, 2010, 09:41:20 AM »

Offline PLamb

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Mike Miller won Rookie of the Year under Doc
Pick 2 Knicks

PG: George Hill, Ty Lawson
SG: Ray Allen, Anthony Parker, Quentin Richardson
SF: Grant Hill, Matt Barnes, D
PF: Zach Randolph, Kenyon Martin, Jon Brockman, Dante Cunningham
C:  Nene Hilario,   Own rights: Nikola Pekovic IR: Kyle Weaver

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #101 on: March 05, 2010, 09:47:52 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Doc has to figure out how to win championships and develop a player or two at the same time. Even if the team is loaded at that position. If I were grading, I'd give Doc a F when it comes to this. On the flip side, Phil Jackson is the king at this. He'd get an A.
 


If Doc can only either develop young guys or work to win a title, I hope he works towards winning the title.



But didn't Rondo, Perk, Davis, and Powe all improve the year the Celtics won a title?

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #102 on: March 05, 2010, 09:59:20 AM »

Offline jpd985

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When the team is healthy I can see not having them play. However, when injuries rack up they should be seeing some time to ease the burden on the veterans.

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #103 on: March 05, 2010, 10:02:51 AM »

Offline Chris

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Doc has to figure out how to win championships and develop a player or two at the same time. Even if the team is loaded at that position. If I were grading, I'd give Doc a F when it comes to this. On the flip side, Phil Jackson is the king at this. He'd get an A.
 


If Doc can only either develop young guys or work to win a title, I hope he works towards winning the title.



But didn't Rondo, Perk, Davis, and Powe all improve the year the Celtics won a title?

Yup, all of those guys were developed perfectly by Doc IMO.  

I also think Doc did a great job with Ryan Gomes and Al Jefferson.  He balanced giving them opportunities, and not throwing them out there when they weren't ready, and they both became very good NBA players.

I think people need to realize that most NBA players take some time to develop, and it is not always the best thing for them (let alone the team) to just throw them into the fire when they aren't ready.  Doc has done a good job of waiting until guys are READY before throwing them in there, and he has had a lot of success that way.

With Walker, I think he was simply a victim of bad timing, and a faulty knee (which, BTW, I believe is why Danny will not be kicking himself for this trade).  Walker was clearly not ready last season.  They gave him some minutes, but he still looked lost, and simply had not developed the perimeter skills needed to be a rotation player.  This year, I think they were ready to give him a shot at a bigger role...possibly even taking some minutes from Tony Allen, who was pretty bad last year.  

Unfortunately, Walker hurt his knee (again) on the first day (I believe) of camp, and missed a couple months.  This set him way behind.  If he hadn't been injured, he likely would have been playing a bunch of minutes, as Tony Allen was out, and then when he came back, Daniels was out.  Since they were much higher on Walker than Giddens, he would have gotten a chance...but he was hurt.  Then, even when he did came back, he was clearly out of shape (in fact, he still looks a good 10-15 pounds too heavy), and had missed 2 months of practices...which are incredibly important for young players.  But he worked his way back, moved past Giddens again, but by the time he got his legs back under him, and had gotten caught up, Daniels was coming back, and Tony Allen was in the middle of his best stretch of basketball since 2006.

Needless to say, he went right back to the end of the bench.

It's not Doc's fault that Walker got hurt at the worst possible time.  This is how it works for young, end of the bench guys.  They are not forcefed minutes, because they just are not good enough for that.  What they need to do is take advantage of the minutes that are given to them when the opportunity arises, and force the coach to keep them in the rotation.  Walker never did that (neither did Giddens).  That is not the player (and his knees).

Re: We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.
« Reply #104 on: March 05, 2010, 10:18:10 AM »

Offline PLamb

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I still say that three minute performance against the Clippers doomed him to having to prove it to Doc in practice once again

Doc started giving Walker a little run (I think 4 out of 5 games 3-6 MPG, something like that) but when Walker went out there he was getting lost defensively

I think that horrendous three minute stint against the Clips were the C's went from up 2 to down 9 in 3 minutes with Walker being the biggest weakness and getting burned badly was the final straw.

They needed defense from him in that second unit and he couldn't do it

Can the kid score...sure in blow outs in a system without half court structure

But the C's had Rasheed, Eddie, Davis, Daniels and usually a starter on the floor to score

What they needed was defense from him

He couldn't do it so they shipped him off

He might turn out to be a good fit in that system but he was an awful fit in ours so the coach didn't play him
Pick 2 Knicks

PG: George Hill, Ty Lawson
SG: Ray Allen, Anthony Parker, Quentin Richardson
SF: Grant Hill, Matt Barnes, D
PF: Zach Randolph, Kenyon Martin, Jon Brockman, Dante Cunningham
C:  Nene Hilario,   Own rights: Nikola Pekovic IR: Kyle Weaver