We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.

[ThaPreacher]

Look,
Let's be really honest:  There have been many instances when Giddens and Walker could have played.  Consult, people who have played with Walker and ask them what they think.  "Athletic, tough defender,
scorer."  You can't develop unless you get time on the court.
Doc seems to struggle with developing players, since he got the veterans.  He needs to find roles for them.  Include them and develop them.  Or cut them.

[wdleehi]

Look,
Let's be really honest:  There have been many instances when Giddens and Walker could have played.  Consult, people who have played with Walker and ask them what they think.  "Athletic, tough defender,
scorer."  You can't develop unless you get time on the court.
Doc seems to struggle with developing players, since he got the veterans.  He needs to find roles for them.  Include them and develop them.  Or cut them.

Then explain why those two starters (Perk and Rondo) are out there?


Why was Davis cappable of starting in the playoffs?   Why do posters continue to miss players like Powe, Gomes, West, and  Jefferson?

[Tai]

one more thing for you "Doc sees them in practice" Guys....Let me tell you about practice, practice is for learning plays and rotations, it has nothing to do with game time. Playing in a game is 100% different, you could be a star in practice......people need real game time to get NBA level confidence, once you help them get that, then you see what you really have, as in leon powe......it took doc almost 2 years to play that man......what was he waiting on...? Enter sheldon williams, scal starts, not sheldon...what did you get out of him...ever...nothing, so what did doc see in him in practice..? Yea right.....if you think practice is anywhere near game style, you haven't ever played real time...

You're just trolling at this point. You've talked this game before and it got stale then. You're now just exhuming dead things out of graves.

If Walker was a "star" in practice, you really don't think he'd get playing time? And I don't mean winning a team dunk contest either (and I thought that was Giddens, but that's getting away from the point). I keep forgetting that Giddens had surgery, so he's probably done for the year, regardless. So, for my post, I won't mention him again.

You say practice is for "learning plays and rotations". What do you think happens in games?! Oh, I dunno....oh wait yes I do! PLAYS, and ROTATIONS. Picks, pick and rolls, rotating to the open man when a pick or double team occurs. Transition, and where to be when it happens and depending on the situation (2vs1, 3vs1, 3vs2, etc.) You see people ripping on Rasheed cause he's usually late for a rotation on defense to the point that a) they think he's a cancer and b) they want him TRADED. If Walker, for example, isn't being played because he hasn't grasped the plays or rotations, then how is he not going to get burnt by his man going to the hoop? How is someone not going to be left open that he should've rotated to, and has free reign to shoot or drive to the hoop once Walker goes for him, albeit late?  

The way you talk, in a game, players can do whatever they want and be OK, that it's ONLY IN practice where everything is so precise. Ask Gerald Green how the hell that worked out. Practice is called PRACTICE for a reason. It's for the coaches to teach the players how to do all the right things IN games for plays and what not, not mutually-exclusive from them. Not "ok, we've taught you this in practice, now do something completely different in the game". If Walker's not showing he gets all the plays and rotations in practice, why do you think he'll get it in games?  

[More Banners]

Look,
Let's be really honest:  There have been many instances when Giddens and Walker could have played.  Consult, people who have played with Walker and ask them what they think.  "Athletic, tough defender,
scorer."  You can't develop unless you get time on the court.
Doc seems to struggle with developing players, since he got the veterans.  He needs to find roles for them.  Include them and develop them.  Or cut them.

Then explain why those two starters (Perk and Rondo) are out there?


Why was Davis cappable of starting in the playoffs?   Why do posters continue to miss players like Powe, Gomes, West, and  Jefferson?

I get you, wdleedhi.

But, playing devil's advocate, those guys, when they were younger players, didn't have much in the way of talent ahead of them, the team had the expressed purpose of developing talent which it does not have now,, and they all had a longer rookie contract to prove themselves than players have now.  Doc didn't have much choice but to play BBD, did he?  And he made plenty of mistakes.

To compare, Gomes and Jefferson clearly have more talent.  Not much to talk about there.  Yet Jefferson played in spite of his subpar defense, but was/is THAT good on the offensive block to play anyway.  If he had to show an all-around game to get any PT at all, he might still be riding the bench.  Yet the team was committed to developing/playing young players, developing value, and it worked, partly because the guys played.

But might be noteworthy that Powe and West both had limitations and played anyway.  West couldn't (and can still barely) go right, and Powe was strictly a rebound/put back guy who could position well down low.  They played anyway, and developed.  Perhaps this is the argument?

The problem is, largely, that it is incredibly difficult to develop value in young players while winning.

[Tai]

one more thing for you "Doc sees them in practice" Guys....Let me tell you about practice, practice is for learning plays and rotations, it has nothing to do with game time. Playing in a game is 100% different, you could be a star in practice......people need real game time to get NBA level confidence, once you help them get that, then you see what you really have, as in leon powe......it took doc almost 2 years to play that man......what was he waiting on...? Enter sheldon williams, scal starts, not sheldon...what did you get out of him...ever...nothing, so what did doc see in him in practice..? Yea right.....if you think practice is anywhere near game style, you haven't ever played real time...

Scali has proven himself in the NBA.  He may just be a 12th man, but he is a proven 12th man that has stepped in when needed and provided what he needed to provide for the team to be successful.  Just look at the teams record with him starting in the past three seasons. 

Oh please stop with the "scal is good" stuff, ever hear of the  kings clothes story...? Ever see anyone cover scal in the corner, no...they don't, you might respect him, but the rest of the league do not. Is he ever mentioned in trades, no, why is that. He is the 6th highest paid player on the c's....it was a flat out mistake, we got took, and that is that. look at his stats, tell me how he does things no one sees, the intagibles, off the ball, ya right, one minute you guys are all about stats, the next, you go to the mystery help......as if you would ever put scal on your team by choice.....i would always play sheldon over him, sheldon rebounds, rondo developed his shot this year, how did scal improve himself over time here...? shot sucks, no post up, no rebounds...what??? give the scasl thing a rest.....i don't hate him, i never met him, he just doesn't belong out there ahead of a contributer who needs some prime time playing. Scal strating....my god, you are kidding to incite more reaction, right..?

I do believe wdleehi called Scal a 12th man, I don't think I saw him say "Scal is good". Being the last guy on the active roster doesn't really sound like a compliment to me. I mean, the only thing you can say is that point is you're getting paid to receive a ton of DNPs.  I guess you got an implication that wdleehi said "Scal is good" based on seeing how well the C's did when Scal started. I think that was done to not mess up the rotations between the starters and bench, kinda like Giddens this season.

Anyways, you said Scal isn't respected by the rest of the league. Lemme guess, you think Walker is?? Scal plays when he does cause no matter what you think, he's better than Walker. Plain and simple. He knows the plays and rotations, and has capable defense, even if it isn't the best. You say "no rebounds". Gee, that's exactly what Walker is known for too: not being a good rebounder.

I've said this over and over again; I don't care if you think Doc isn't a HoF coach or what not, but stop trying to fault him for not playing players that don't deserve it, and can't even find minutes on other teams. I mean, do you think Doc didn't play Pruitt enough too and that's why Pruitt can only get on the Lakers' D-League team?

[PLamb]

Look,
Let's be really honest:  There have been many instances when Giddens and Walker could have played.  Consult, people who have played with Walker and ask them what they think.  "Athletic, tough defender,
scorer."  You can't develop unless you get time on the court.
Doc seems to struggle with developing players, since he got the veterans.  He needs to find roles for them.  Include them and develop them.  Or cut them.

Then explain why those two starters (Perk and Rondo) are out there?


Why was Davis cappable of starting in the playoffs?   Why do posters continue to miss players like Powe, Gomes, West, and  Jefferson?

I get you, wdleedhi.

But, playing devil's advocate, those guys, when they were younger players, didn't have much in the way of talent ahead of them, the team had the expressed purpose of developing talent which it does not have now,, and they all had a longer rookie contract to prove themselves than players have now.  Doc didn't have much choice but to play BBD, did he?  And he made plenty of mistakes.

To compare, Gomes and Jefferson clearly have more talent.  Not much to talk about there.  Yet Jefferson played in spite of his subpar defense, but was/is THAT good on the offensive block to play anyway.  If he had to show an all-around game to get any PT at all, he might still be riding the bench.  Yet the team was committed to developing/playing young players, developing value, and it worked, partly because the guys played.

But might be noteworthy that Powe and West both had limitations and played anyway.  West couldn't (and can still barely) go right, and Powe was strictly a rebound/put back guy who could position well down low.  They played anyway, and developed.  Perhaps this is the argument?

The problem is, largely, that it is incredibly difficult to develop value in young players while winning.

One guy who defends this point says Powe never played his first two years and the other says Powe getting consistent playing time developed him

Could you two get together and consult on one story please

Either Powe played or he didn't

[Brickowski]

There was never any value there to develop. 

[sk7326]

Look,
Let's be really honest:  There have been many instances when Giddens and Walker could have played.  Consult, people who have played with Walker and ask them what they think.  "Athletic, tough defender,
scorer."  You can't develop unless you get time on the court.
Doc seems to struggle with developing players, since he got the veterans.  He needs to find roles for them.  Include them and develop them.  Or cut them.

Then explain why those two starters (Perk and Rondo) are out there?


Why was Davis cappable of starting in the playoffs?   Why do posters continue to miss players like Powe, Gomes, West, and  Jefferson?

I get you, wdleedhi.

But, playing devil's advocate, those guys, when they were younger players, didn't have much in the way of talent ahead of them, the team had the expressed purpose of developing talent which it does not have now,, and they all had a longer rookie contract to prove themselves than players have now.  Doc didn't have much choice but to play BBD, did he?  And he made plenty of mistakes.

To compare, Gomes and Jefferson clearly have more talent.  Not much to talk about there.  Yet Jefferson played in spite of his subpar defense, but was/is THAT good on the offensive block to play anyway.  If he had to show an all-around game to get any PT at all, he might still be riding the bench.  Yet the team was committed to developing/playing young players, developing value, and it worked, partly because the guys played.

But might be noteworthy that Powe and West both had limitations and played anyway.  West couldn't (and can still barely) go right, and Powe was strictly a rebound/put back guy who could position well down low.  They played anyway, and developed.  Perhaps this is the argument?

The problem is, largely, that it is incredibly difficult to develop value in young players while winning.

Here is the thing though - Big Al could SCORE and rebound at a restaurant quality NBA level right out of the chute ... anybody knew he belonged on the floor right away.  He earned the PT with his innate talent.  West already shot the basketball at an NBA starting level.  When you do something THAT well you demand PT and the rest of the game can catch up.

Giddens did not do anything valuable at an NBA level - and Walker provides energy and hustle, that just makes him a more athletic Brian Scalabrine.  When a coach says a guy can turn into a tough defender/energy guy, it is a way of saying he lacks other basketball skills like hitting open shots or dribble driving.

[More Banners]

Look,
Let's be really honest:  There have been many instances when Giddens and Walker could have played.  Consult, people who have played with Walker and ask them what they think.  "Athletic, tough defender,
scorer."  You can't develop unless you get time on the court.
Doc seems to struggle with developing players, since he got the veterans.  He needs to find roles for them.  Include them and develop them.  Or cut them.

Then explain why those two starters (Perk and Rondo) are out there?


Why was Davis cappable of starting in the playoffs?   Why do posters continue to miss players like Powe, Gomes, West, and  Jefferson?

I get you, wdleedhi.

But, playing devil's advocate, those guys, when they were younger players, didn't have much in the way of talent ahead of them, the team had the expressed purpose of developing talent which it does not have now,, and they all had a longer rookie contract to prove themselves than players have now.  Doc didn't have much choice but to play BBD, did he?  And he made plenty of mistakes.

To compare, Gomes and Jefferson clearly have more talent.  Not much to talk about there.  Yet Jefferson played in spite of his subpar defense, but was/is THAT good on the offensive block to play anyway.  If he had to show an all-around game to get any PT at all, he might still be riding the bench.  Yet the team was committed to developing/playing young players, developing value, and it worked, partly because the guys played.

But might be noteworthy that Powe and West both had limitations and played anyway.  West couldn't (and can still barely) go right, and Powe was strictly a rebound/put back guy who could position well down low.  They played anyway, and developed.  Perhaps this is the argument?

The problem is, largely, that it is incredibly difficult to develop value in young players while winning.

One guy who defends this point says Powe never played his first two years and the other says Powe getting consistent playing time developed him

Could you two get together and consult on one story please

Either Powe played or he didn't

Powe averaged 11 minutes in 63 games as a rookie, and 14 minutes in 56 games his 2nd year.  His 3rd year, he played 70 games and averaged 17 minutes.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

one more thing for you "Doc sees them in practice" Guys....Let me tell you about practice, practice is for learning plays and rotations, it has nothing to do with game time. Playing in a game is 100% different, you could be a star in practice......people need real game time to get NBA level confidence, once you help them get that, then you see what you really have, as in leon powe......it took doc almost 2 years to play that man......what was he waiting on...? Enter sheldon williams, scal starts, not sheldon...what did you get out of him...ever...nothing, so what did doc see in him in practice..? Yea right.....if you think practice is anywhere near game style, you haven't ever played real time...

You're just trolling at this point. You've talked this game before and it got stale then. You're now just exhuming dead things out of graves.

If Walker was a "star" in practice, you really don't think he'd get playing time? And I don't mean winning a team dunk contest either (and I thought that was Giddens, but that's getting away from the point). I keep forgetting that Giddens had surgery, so he's probably done for the year, regardless. So, for my post, I won't mention him again.

You say practice is for "learning plays and rotations". What do you think happens in games?! Oh, I dunno....oh wait yes I do! PLAYS, and ROTATIONS. Picks, pick and rolls, rotating to the open man when a pick or double team occurs. Transition, and where to be when it happens and depending on the situation (2vs1, 3vs1, 3vs2, etc.) You see people ripping on Rasheed cause he's usually late for a rotation on defense to the point that a) they think he's a cancer and b) they want him TRADED. If Walker, for example, isn't being played because he hasn't grasped the plays or rotations, then how is he not going to get burnt by his man going to the hoop? How is someone not going to be left open that he should've rotated to, and has free reign to shoot or drive to the hoop once Walker goes for him, albeit late?  

The way you talk, in a game, players can do whatever they want and be OK, that it's ONLY IN practice where everything is so precise. Ask Gerald Green how the hell that worked out. Practice is called PRACTICE for a reason. It's for the coaches to teach the players how to do all the right things IN games for plays and what not, not mutually-exclusive from them. Not "ok, we've taught you this in practice, now do something completely different in the game". If Walker's not showing he gets all the plays and rotations in practice, why do you think he'll get it in games?  

I know you want to make yourself sound good, but, as i said before, playing time is not practice. So, what i am sating is that you practice the plays, then do them during game time. Every player makes mistakes, some are forgiven, some are not by the coach. It takes more than learning plays to get it done on the floor. It takes game time, experience and instinct. The "Play" learned in practice, does nothing on the other team, you have to be able to know how to stay in front of your guy, and what your teammate is likely to do during the pic and roll. Perk for example, gets lost often on the pick and roll...i know i have to keep re explaining these things for guys like you. I am glad to see you hang on my every post. And i do notice how you feel that instead of saying your limited opinion from lack of experience, you have to comment on me and mine...not your fault! Most people just say how they feel about the subject, without directing at anyone, not you though. My posts are always the same, big surprise, I don't change day to day. How did the C's end up at exactly the same place as last year...?

[Jon]

We also haven't developed Kedrick Brown, Jerome Moiso, Joe Forte, Gerald Green, Marcus Banks, Orien Green, and most importantly, Ben Pepper.

Darn us!

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Leon hardly played his first two years, more like 1.5 years...then, when he played, he showed what he had been sitting on, the mystery there, is why doc say him sooo long. He didn't play great right away, it wasn't until eddie house started working to him, then kg started setting him up, then doc saw what he could do, then he played.
 we know how it turned out from there.....so how do you not get that..? or what does it matter what i say, have an original opinion, leave me out of yours. Just post your ideas or thoughts, it is simple....!

[Meadowlark_Scal]

one more thing for you "Doc sees them in practice" Guys....Let me tell you about practice, practice is for learning plays and rotations, it has nothing to do with game time. Playing in a game is 100% different, you could be a star in practice......people need real game time to get NBA level confidence, once you help them get that, then you see what you really have, as in leon powe......it took doc almost 2 years to play that man......what was he waiting on...? Enter sheldon williams, scal starts, not sheldon...what did you get out of him...ever...nothing, so what did doc see in him in practice..? Yea right.....if you think practice is anywhere near game style, you haven't ever played real time...

Scali has proven himself in the NBA.  He may just be a 12th man, but he is a proven 12th man that has stepped in when needed and provided what he needed to provide for the team to be successful.  Just look at the teams record with him starting in the past three seasons. 

Oh please stop with the "scal is good" stuff, ever hear of the  kings clothes story...? Ever see anyone cover scal in the corner, no...they don't, you might respect him, but the rest of the league do not. Is he ever mentioned in trades, no, why is that. He is the 6th highest paid player on the c's....it was a flat out mistake, we got took, and that is that. look at his stats, tell me how he does things no one sees, the intagibles, off the ball, ya right, one minute you guys are all about stats, the next, you go to the mystery help......as if you would ever put scal on your team by choice.....i would always play sheldon over him, sheldon rebounds, rondo developed his shot this year, how did scal improve himself over time here...? shot sucks, no post up, no rebounds...what??? give the scasl thing a rest.....i don't hate him, i never met him, he just doesn't belong out there ahead of a contributer who needs some prime time playing. Scal strating....my god, you are kidding to incite more reaction, right..?

I do believe wdleehi called Scal a 12th man, I don't think I saw him say "Scal is good". Being the last guy on the active roster doesn't really sound like a compliment to me. I mean, the only thing you can say is that point is you're getting paid to receive a ton of DNPs.  I guess you got an implication that wdleehi said "Scal is good" based on seeing how well the C's did when Scal started. I think that was done to not mess up the rotations between the starters and bench, kinda like Giddens this season.

Anyways, you said Scal isn't respected by the rest of the league. Lemme guess, you think Walker is?? Scal plays when he does cause no matter what you think, he's better than Walker. Plain and simple. He knows the plays and rotations, and has capable defense, even if it isn't the best. You say "no rebounds". Gee, that's exactly what Walker is known for too: not being a good rebounder.

I've said this over and over again; I don't care if you think Doc isn't a HoF coach or what not, but stop trying to fault him for not playing players that don't deserve it, and can't even find minutes on other teams. I mean, do you think Doc didn't play Pruitt enough too and that's why Pruitt can only get on the Lakers' D-League team?

So, now you are taking issue, with what i said to another man, not you. you take it personal and come at me with this??? What is with you. Have your own opinion and leave it at that. In your previous post the term "you" was used 10 times, do you need me to puit ideas in your head to help you have a thought...? Find someone else to live off of.

[PLamb]

Leon hardly played his first two years, more like 1.5 years...then, when he played, he showed what he had been sitting on, the mystery there, is why doc say him sooo long. He didn't play great right away, it wasn't until eddie house started working to him, then kg started setting him up, then doc saw what he could do, then he played.
 we know how it turned out from there.....so how do you not get that..? or what does it matter what i say, have an original opinion, leave me out of yours. Just post your ideas or thoughts, it is simple....!

Talk to More Banners

He has the same view point you do but somehow thinks Powe did play a lot and that's how he developed himself

Personally, I remember and the stats showed Powe played some

But I remember him getting yanked left and right because he was an atrocious defender and never showed even a hint of understanding of how to play NBA defense until about a third of the way through his second year when he started to be used more regularly

My guess here, he finally started to show understanding of what he needed to be done in practice and finally got a regular gig and that if he never showed that in practice, he would have been sitting behind Glen Davis and never made a third year here

[More Banners]

Leon hardly played his first two years, more like 1.5 years...then, when he played, he showed what he had been sitting on, the mystery there, is why doc say him sooo long. He didn't play great right away, it wasn't until eddie house started working to him, then kg started setting him up, then doc saw what he could do, then he played.
 we know how it turned out from there.....so how do you not get that..? or what does it matter what i say, have an original opinion, leave me out of yours. Just post your ideas or thoughts, it is simple....!

Talk to More Banners

He has the same view point you do but somehow thinks Powe did play a lot and that's how he developed himself

Personally, I remember and the stats showed Powe played some

But I remember him getting yanked left and right because he was an atrocious defender and never showed even a hint of understanding of how to play NBA defense until about a third of the way through his second year when he started to be used more regularly

My guess here, he finally started to show understanding of what he needed to be done in practice and finally got a regular gig and that if he never showed that in practice, he would have been sitting behind Glen Davis and never made a third year here

You are correct, sir.  Powe played regularly, and was yanked left and right, ands still had plenty of DNP-CD's.  Sometimes he got 3 minutes, 7, or 14.  The first year he was here was the year before the title, so once we went into tank mode, he started getting extended minutes, sometimes up to 30/gm.  He didn't really earn them, meaning he wasn't ready to get 30 minutes on a good team, but there just wasn't anyone ahead of him on the depth chart besides Perk and Al, and we were committed to developing assets.  We traded most of the team for the big 3, so we were a bit short on depth, making it easier for him to earn minutes (few people ahead of him) and also only had to be a "role player to the stars". 

Did playing help his development?  I can't see how playing in an actual game against different guys every night doesn't help.  It must.

What does this mean for the current young guys?  Too many more experienced players ahead of them to get the same shot that some of the successful "projects" got, like West, TA, Perk, and anyone that was here before the big 3.

Which, of course, doesn't mean they don't suck.  They might both suck, AND have not had the same chance to work through mistakes and improve that previous picks got.

Could they have been showcased?  Yes.  Were they?  No.  The OP had a good point.