We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.

[Chris]

I like to think of it more as "Walker and Giddens have not developed into valuable players/assets".  I have a hard time nailing this on anyone other than the players.

For Giddens, he is clearly a total spaz, which has directly led to his lack of minutes.  And for Walker...well, that knee injury killed him.  He was gaining a little traction at the end of last season, and it looked like he could get some minutes going into camp with Tony recovering from an injury.  However, he hurt his knee again, missed a couple important months (and in the process balooned up a bit), and is only getting back into game shape now...right as the other guys are all coming back.

[Tai]

one more thing for you "Doc sees them in practice" Guys....Let me tell you about practice, practice is for learning plays and rotations, it has nothing to do with game time. Playing in a game is 100% different, you could be a star in practice......people need real game time to get NBA level confidence, once you help them get that, then you see what you really have, as in leon powe......it took doc almost 2 years to play that man......what was he waiting on...? Enter sheldon williams, scal starts, not sheldon...what did you get out of him...ever...nothing, so what did doc see in him in practice..? Yea right.....if you think practice is anywhere near game style, you haven't ever played real time...

You're just trolling at this point. You've talked this game before and it got stale then. You're now just exhuming dead things out of graves.

If Walker was a "star" in practice, you really don't think he'd get playing time? And I don't mean winning a team dunk contest either (and I thought that was Giddens, but that's getting away from the point). I keep forgetting that Giddens had surgery, so he's probably done for the year, regardless. So, for my post, I won't mention him again.

You say practice is for "learning plays and rotations". What do you think happens in games?! Oh, I dunno....oh wait yes I do! PLAYS, and ROTATIONS. Picks, pick and rolls, rotating to the open man when a pick or double team occurs. Transition, and where to be when it happens and depending on the situation (2vs1, 3vs1, 3vs2, etc.) You see people ripping on Rasheed cause he's usually late for a rotation on defense to the point that a) they think he's a cancer and b) they want him TRADED. If Walker, for example, isn't being played because he hasn't grasped the plays or rotations, then how is he not going to get burnt by his man going to the hoop? How is someone not going to be left open that he should've rotated to, and has free reign to shoot or drive to the hoop once Walker goes for him, albeit late?  

The way you talk, in a game, players can do whatever they want and be OK, that it's ONLY IN practice where everything is so precise. Ask Gerald Green how the hell that worked out. Practice is called PRACTICE for a reason. It's for the coaches to teach the players how to do all the right things IN games for plays and what not, not mutually-exclusive from them. Not "ok, we've taught you this in practice, now do something completely different in the game". If Walker's not showing he gets all the plays and rotations in practice, why do you think he'll get it in games?  

I know you want to make yourself sound good, but, as i said before, playing time is not practice. So, what i am sating is that you practice the plays, then do them during game time. Every player makes mistakes, some are forgiven, some are not by the coach. It takes more than learning plays to get it done on the floor. It takes game time, experience and instinct. The "Play" learned in practice, does nothing on the other team, you have to be able to know how to stay in front of your guy, and what your teammate is likely to do during the pic and roll. Perk for example, gets lost often on the pick and roll...i know i have to keep re explaining these things for guys like you. I am glad to see you hang on my every post. And i do notice how you feel that instead of saying your limited opinion from lack of experience, you have to comment on me and mine...not your fault! Most people just say how they feel about the subject, without directing at anyone, not you though. My posts are always the same, big surprise, I don't change day to day. How did the C's end up at exactly the same place as last year...

Firstly, saying "I'm trying to make myself look good" is 100% ad hominem.  I didn't know I was getting a medal for saying Walker hasn't shown he deserves minutes.

I already said my opinion. I think Walker doesn't get playing time cause he's not "getting it" in practice, so Doc feels like it's not worth playing him. It's already been said that Walker's work ethic isn't up to snuff for someone not getting rotational minutes. I don't know how "If Walker's not showing he gets all the plays and rotations in practice, why do you think he'll get it in games?" isn't clear enough of an opinion for you, but there it is again. You wanna argue it's not informed cause I'm not at practice? Sure, since you couldn't claim you thinking Walker deserves playing time just for the sake of it is anymore informed since you're not at Celtics' practices either.

Just please educate me on how you disliking confrontation of your opinion means I don't have one when I've stated clearly how I feel on this issue.

And on that note, you want to give Walker a chance that i don't think he deserves but badger Scal even though he's proved more in the NBA than Walker. In my opinion, just to make it clear, I think that's bogus.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Basically, my opinion is, I would like to see walker well, would have liked to seen that he got more minutes in the early season, sept, oct, nov, that is it. That is always my opinion, same as last year. And my reasons are consistant. But...they are just my thoughts, and i don't mind them being debated, in general, as everyones are. But i do not see any need in making it directed to me or anyone else, this isn't a video game, or an attack your neighbor site. It is a Celtics support site, where we say what we feel that might help the team. People are going to say things you don't agree with, but it doesn't have anything to do with you.....I did not ever originally make any post that had anything to do with you. I don't even know you. I don't follow you on here, nor do i do that to anyone else. That behavior has been called out as not acceptable on this site, i believe the moderator had plainly said so. You not only called me out 10 times with this "you said" stuff, you next took a reply to someone else and jumped in, and took the same line. That behavior says where you are coming from. So, take it easy.....make your opinion known plain and simple, leave me out of it. Quote a post, even mine, but do so with your opinion. No one was talking to you, so no need to answer me line for line, just say your take, based on what you know or feel. Or, we can use that messages part, to talk about it. Most here do not want to hear this from either of us, because it is not about us, nor any other individual, just a bball conversation about how we hope to fix the problems, and that is it. I'd rather not have to engage in this. This way.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Leon hardly played his first two years, more like 1.5 years...then, when he played, he showed what he had been sitting on, the mystery there, is why doc say him sooo long. He didn't play great right away, it wasn't until eddie house started working to him, then kg started setting him up, then doc saw what he could do, then he played.
 we know how it turned out from there.....so how do you not get that..? or what does it matter what i say, have an original opinion, leave me out of yours. Just post your ideas or thoughts, it is simple....!

Talk to More Banners

He has the same view point you do but somehow thinks Powe did play a lot and that's how he developed himself

Personally, I remember and the stats showed Powe played some

But I remember him getting yanked left and right because he was an atrocious defender and never showed even a hint of understanding of how to play NBA defense until about a third of the way through his second year when he started to be used more regularly

My guess here, he finally started to show understanding of what he needed to be done in practice and finally got a regular gig and that if he never showed that in practice, he would have been sitting behind Glen Davis and never made a third year here

You are correct, sir.  Powe played regularly, and was yanked left and right, ands still had plenty of DNP-CD's.  Sometimes he got 3 minutes, 7, or 14.  The first year he was here was the year before the title, so once we went into tank mode, he started getting extended minutes, sometimes up to 30/gm.  He didn't really earn them, meaning he wasn't ready to get 30 minutes on a good team, but there just wasn't anyone ahead of him on the depth chart besides Perk and Al, and we were committed to developing assets.  We traded most of the team for the big 3, so we were a bit short on depth, making it easier for him to earn minutes (few people ahead of him) and also only had to be a "role player to the stars". 

Did playing help his development?  I can't see how playing in an actual game against different guys every night doesn't help.  It must.

What does this mean for the current young guys?  Too many more experienced players ahead of them to get the same shot that some of the successful "projects" got, like West, TA, Perk, and anyone that was here before the big 3.

Which, of course, doesn't mean they don't suck.  They might both suck, AND have not had the same chance to work through mistakes and improve that previous picks got.

Could they have been showcased?  Yes.  Were they?  No.  The OP had a good point.

Well, TP there, to be honest, all i really hoped for is that Sheldon would play like leon....that is it. He might not at all. I just don't think he got enough game time to prove either way. I'd love to have leon still, especially if he didn't reinjure his knees.....i think i liked his style so much that i wanted to believe sheldon could do it too..( also, leon's style is my style, well, when i was younger and better...LOL) so that gets my attention too. I want the C's to be more complete, i hate the lakers, although they are good, HATE cleve, hate to lose to atl, orl...and hate to see how dalls will be...The C's aren't dead yet though..!

[Chief]

I remember Walker being highly regarded after high school. Maybe # 2 in the nation after OJ Mayo. At Kansas State, he was a big star but had serious knee problems. Most thought he was a lottery pick, talent wise, but nervous about a guy that had just had his third knee injury during pre draft workouts.

Walker has always shown, to me, that he has NBA talent. Reminds me of Gerald Wallace in Sacramento. The guy could not get any run on a championship caliber team. Sacramento thought so little of him, they made him available to the Bobcats in the expansion draft. I bet they regret that move now.

I still think you miss the Gerald Wallace comparison.

These assertions that playing time develops players are just wrong

Teaching and practice develops players, not playing time

Giddens and Walker will not get better with playing time, they will only get exposed

Young players have to earn playing time not be given it to develop

I keep reading this notion that if only Walker or Giddens got playing time then they would develop

That is patently WRONG on EVERY level

Game playing time does not develop players that aren't good enough to earn the playing time on their own, and obviously neither has if Scal and Tony are being trotted out in front of them all the time

Consistent playing time develops confidence.

Correction

Consistent playing time for players with the talent and ability to be on the floor and have developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops confidence

Consistent playing time for players without the talent and ability to be on the floor or who have not developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops frustration, bad habits and losses

Big huge stuff you left out there

Sacramento did not believe Gerald had the talent. He, like Walker now, just needed some playing time to hone his skills.

 

[clover]

I like to think of it more as "Walker and Giddens have not developed into valuable players/assets".  I have a hard time nailing this on anyone other than the players.

For Giddens, he is clearly a total spaz, which has directly led to his lack of minutes.  And for Walker...well, that knee injury killed him.  He was gaining a little traction at the end of last season, and it looked like he could get some minutes going into camp with Tony recovering from an injury.  However, he hurt his knee again, missed a couple important months (and in the process balooned up a bit), and is only getting back into game shape now...right as the other guys are all coming back.

Giddens, like Pruitt, has developed a dear-in-the-headlights freeze that they apparently didn't have in college, and more generally Danny's picks ultimately did well when Doc had bad teams and was more or less forced to play them.  Since the Big 3, however, Doc hasn't played the rooks and sophomores and they haven't developed.  Do you really believe that Danny somehow just lost his touch in picking draft players?

[Chief]

These assertions that playing time develops players are just wrong

Teaching and practice develops players, not playing time

Giddens and Walker will not get better with playing time, they will only get exposed

Young players have to earn playing time not be given it to develop

I keep reading this notion that if only Walker or Giddens got playing time then they would develop

That is patently WRONG on EVERY level

Game playing time does not develop players that aren't good enough to earn the playing time on their own, and obviously neither has if Scal and Tony are being trotted out in front of them all the time

Bill Walker would like to argue your point now.

[Mr October]

So suddenly Walker has been "developed" based on 2 games??

The knicks are pretty much a run and gun pick up team. Tony Allen would also put up 20 PPG if given 30 minutes a night on that team. Big deal.

When a team is trying to get a championship, it takes years for a late pick to crack the rotation. Look at the Cavs. Look at the Lakers. Look at all the legit contenders over history.

[liam]

On most NBA teams you have to give what your team needs not what you want to give. The Knicks just let you do what you want as long as you keep jacking shots. You also use no energy on the defensive end.

[PLamb]

These assertions that playing time develops players are just wrong

Teaching and practice develops players, not playing time

Giddens and Walker will not get better with playing time, they will only get exposed

Young players have to earn playing time not be given it to develop

I keep reading this notion that if only Walker or Giddens got playing time then they would develop

That is patently WRONG on EVERY level

Game playing time does not develop players that aren't good enough to earn the playing time on their own, and obviously neither has if Scal and Tony are being trotted out in front of them all the time

Bill Walker would like to argue your point now.

Let him. I would argue that Tony Allen average 20 PPG, 4 APG, 7 RPG and 5 STPG for a stretch in 2007 when given playing time on a team equally as bad as the Knicks where management and the coaching staff could care less if the team played defense.

Does that make Tony Allen some great player that developed because he played?

Is Tony still putting up those numbers?

Is Mike D'Antoni such a great coach that he was able to elicit this hidden talent that the Celtics didn't know about?

Walker was expected to play the role of a defensive wing here

If we wanted him playing the role of unconscious shooting scorer that doesn't have to play defense we would have benched Pierce and started him and kissed our championship aspirations away

[PLamb]

Also, he's put up 43 points in two complete blowouts

Can't wait to see how he performs when a team plays defense against him

[Onslaught]

Wow, these Walker people here are something.

[jpd985]

Also, he's put up 43 points in two complete blowouts

Can't wait to see how he performs when a team plays defense against him

I agree, 2 games is not much of a sample size to determine his ability. Lets give him more time before passing judgment.

[clover]

These assertions that playing time develops players are just wrong

Teaching and practice develops players, not playing time

Giddens and Walker will not get better with playing time, they will only get exposed

Young players have to earn playing time not be given it to develop

I keep reading this notion that if only Walker or Giddens got playing time then they would develop

That is patently WRONG on EVERY level

Game playing time does not develop players that aren't good enough to earn the playing time on their own, and obviously neither has if Scal and Tony are being trotted out in front of them all the time

Bill Walker would like to argue your point now.

Let him. I would argue that Tony Allen average 20 PPG, 4 APG, 7 RPG and 5 STPG for a stretch in 2007 when given playing time on a team equally as bad as the Knicks where management and the coaching staff could care less if the team played defense.

Does that make Tony Allen some great player that developed because he played?

Is Tony still putting up those numbers?

Is Mike D'Antoni such a great coach that he was able to elicit this hidden talent that the Celtics didn't know about?

Walker was expected to play the role of a defensive wing here

If we wanted him playing the role of unconscious shooting scorer that doesn't have to play defense we would have benched Pierce and started him and kissed our championship aspirations away

Ya wanna look at how much playing time TA had racked up over the years before that run?  NBA teams get only short, sporadic practices in during the year, and playing time is absolutely critical for their young guys to develop.

[wdleehi]

Great.


He still didn't have a role with the Celtics.


He still wouldn't have earned any minutes.


He still isn't needed for this playoff run.