We have not developed value in Walker and Giddens.

[vinnie]

Please name for me all of the young players that Doc has not played who have gone on to other teams and become significant contributors. The silence is deafening.

[PLamb]

These assertions that playing time develops players are just wrong

Teaching and practice develops players, not playing time

Giddens and Walker will not get better with playing time, they will only get exposed

Young players have to earn playing time not be given it to develop

I keep reading this notion that if only Walker or Giddens got playing time then they would develop

That is patently WRONG on EVERY level

Game playing time does not develop players that aren't good enough to earn the playing time on their own, and obviously neither has if Scal and Tony are being trotted out in front of them all the time

Consistent playing time develops confidence.

Correction

Consistent playing time for players with the talent and ability to be on the floor and have developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops confidence

Consistent playing time for players without the talent and ability to be on the floor or who have not developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops frustration, bad habits and losses

Big huge stuff you left out there

[Fan from VT]

These assertions that playing time develops players are just wrong

Teaching and practice develops players, not playing time

Giddens and Walker will not get better with playing time, they will only get exposed

Young players have to earn playing time not be given it to develop

I keep reading this notion that if only Walker or Giddens got playing time then they would develop

That is patently WRONG on EVERY level

Game playing time does not develop players that aren't good enough to earn the playing time on their own, and obviously neither has if Scal and Tony are being trotted out in front of them all the time

Consistent playing time develops confidence.

Correction

Consistent playing time for players with the talent and ability to be on the floor and have developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops confidence

Consistent playing time for players without the talent and ability to be on the floor or who have not developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops frustration, bad habits and losses

Big huge stuff you left out there

I generally agree that the "Doc won't play young guys" is a bit overblown. However, I have to say that Doc is NOT holding his veterans accountable either. If a young guy pulled what Sheed pulls, he'd get yanked. Sheed should get yanked for a guy that will at least try to do what he's supposed to do.

[PLamb]

These assertions that playing time develops players are just wrong

Teaching and practice develops players, not playing time

Giddens and Walker will not get better with playing time, they will only get exposed

Young players have to earn playing time not be given it to develop

I keep reading this notion that if only Walker or Giddens got playing time then they would develop

That is patently WRONG on EVERY level

Game playing time does not develop players that aren't good enough to earn the playing time on their own, and obviously neither has if Scal and Tony are being trotted out in front of them all the time

Consistent playing time develops confidence.

Correction

Consistent playing time for players with the talent and ability to be on the floor and have developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops confidence

Consistent playing time for players without the talent and ability to be on the floor or who have not developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops frustration, bad habits and losses

Big huge stuff you left out there

I generally agree that the "Doc won't play young guys" is a bit overblown. However, I have to say that Doc is NOT holding his veterans accountable either. If a young guy pulled what Sheed pulls, he'd get yanked. Sheed should get yanked for a guy that will at least try to do what he's supposed to do.

Can't argue with that

100% agree

[sk7326]

Doc and Ainge have failed to develop value in the young guys. I keep reading how Hickson is the key to any Cavs trade. The Cavs give the young guy 20 minutes a game. So he has the confidence and oppertunity to grow and become better. Walker was drafted also in 2008 the guy is buried on the bench. Who knows what his potential is. Meanwhile he got Pierce and Kg limping thru this season. I dont get it.

Cleveland is also vying for a championship yet they still are trying to develop young talent. Epic fail Doc and Danny.

Justin Reed, Ryan Gomes ... they might have helped them in a trade if I don't recall

If Giddens could play, he would - Doc likes being employed ... if he was burying one of Ainge's prospects, he would be read the riot act ... if he was turning down a chance to win willingly, he would be a moron. 

[Chief]

I remember Walker being highly regarded after high school. Maybe # 2 in the nation after OJ Mayo. At Kansas State, he was a big star but had serious knee problems. Most thought he was a lottery pick, talent wise, but nervous about a guy that had just had his third knee injury during pre draft workouts.

Walker has always shown, to me, that he has NBA talent. Reminds me of Gerald Wallace in Sacramento. The guy could not get any run on a championship caliber team. Sacramento thought so little of him, they made him available to the Bobcats in the expansion draft. I bet they regret that move now.

I still think you miss the Gerald Wallace comparison.

These assertions that playing time develops players are just wrong

Teaching and practice develops players, not playing time

Giddens and Walker will not get better with playing time, they will only get exposed

Young players have to earn playing time not be given it to develop

I keep reading this notion that if only Walker or Giddens got playing time then they would develop

That is patently WRONG on EVERY level

Game playing time does not develop players that aren't good enough to earn the playing time on their own, and obviously neither has if Scal and Tony are being trotted out in front of them all the time

Consistent playing time develops confidence.

Correction

Consistent playing time for players with the talent and ability to be on the floor and have developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops confidence

Consistent playing time for players without the talent and ability to be on the floor or who have not developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops frustration, bad habits and losses

Big huge stuff you left out there

Sacramento did not believe Gerald had the talent. He, like Walker now, just needed some playing time to hone his skills.

[guava_wrench]

I agree , Doc should have been playing Walker at least 10 mins a game. We all know what TA is ( a bench player , 8th or 9th man. Doc is playing Ray 40 MINS A NIGHT in half the games.

Playing Walker 10-15 mins a game does these things.

- Gives PP and Ray rest
- Gives Rondo another guy to run the floor and finish
- Gives us a young prospect teams might want in a trade


And don't tell me that they suck, Doc never plays young players unless he is forced to. Walker has proven he can score in the D league. I know its not NBA talent, but Walker would be playing against other teams 2nd unit players.

Doc play Walker,and I'm not talking about 5 mins every 5 games.

I guess he didn't play Pruitt cause he hates young guys. Where is he now, again?

Hudson's not really getting the consistent time in Memphis that you'd like, either, if "5 min every 5 games" isn't good enough for you.

Also, I'll tell you Walker doesn't suck as long as you don't tell me that what he did in D-League means anything. It's one thing to score in D-League, but can he score the way in D-League the way he would have to in the NBA to be effective?

And I know you're not implying that Walker is playing "2nd unit players" in D-League starters. I'm not trying to berate Walker for the sake of it, but come on, you're telling me just as little as you'd think Doc would say about Walker when asked. Additionally, even without Ray Allen, only Paul Pierce had 30+ min against New Orleans (34). That was with 10 guys, not even including Shelden, and all without Walker. We don't need Walker just to keep starters' minutes down when healthy, either.

Of course Pruitt and Hudson didn't play, Rondo is a 24 yr old stud at the PG position who can effectively play 40 mins a night.

Walker is backing up a 35 yr old SG and a baanged up PP. We have been sucking since december anyways, its not like playing walker 10 mins a game is going to make us much worse.

Ray and PP are old and we know what TA is.

It's not going to happen now though because Daniels is back, but Doc should have given him some mins against atlanta and other athletic teams.

You need to follow Pruitt's career. Pruitt is out of the league. His lack of playing time was not because of Rondo's minutes. His lack of playing time was due to him not being good enough for the NBA.

Does the name Stephon Marbury ring a bell? He is the backup PG we picked up because Pruitt couldn't get the job done. The minutes were there for the taking. Pruitt just isn't good enough for the NBA.

Your argument seems very far-fetched.

[Tai]

I remember Walker being highly regarded after high school. Maybe # 2 in the nation after OJ Mayo. At Kansas State, he was a big star but had serious knee problems. Most thought he was a lottery pick, talent wise, but nervous about a guy that had just had his third knee injury during pre draft workouts.

Walker has always shown, to me, that he has NBA talent. Reminds me of Gerald Wallace in Sacramento. The guy could not get any run on a championship caliber team. Sacramento thought so little of him, they made him available to the Bobcats in the expansion draft. I bet they regret that move now.

I still think you miss the Gerald Wallace comparison.

These assertions that playing time develops players are just wrong

Teaching and practice develops players, not playing time

Giddens and Walker will not get better with playing time, they will only get exposed

Young players have to earn playing time not be given it to develop

I keep reading this notion that if only Walker or Giddens got playing time then they would develop

That is patently WRONG on EVERY level

Game playing time does not develop players that aren't good enough to earn the playing time on their own, and obviously neither has if Scal and Tony are being trotted out in front of them all the time

Consistent playing time develops confidence.

Correction

Consistent playing time for players with the talent and ability to be on the floor and have developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops confidence

Consistent playing time for players without the talent and ability to be on the floor or who have not developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops frustration, bad habits and losses

Big huge stuff you left out there

Sacramento did not believe Gerald had the talent. He, like Walker now, just needed some playing time to hone his skills.

Are you really comparing Walker to Wallace? Wallace isn't an all star just by getting 10 rebounds per game, buddy. 

[Chief]

I remember Walker being highly regarded after high school. Maybe # 2 in the nation after OJ Mayo. At Kansas State, he was a big star but had serious knee problems. Most thought he was a lottery pick, talent wise, but nervous about a guy that had just had his third knee injury during pre draft workouts.

Walker has always shown, to me, that he has NBA talent. Reminds me of Gerald Wallace in Sacramento. The guy could not get any run on a championship caliber team. Sacramento thought so little of him, they made him available to the Bobcats in the expansion draft. I bet they regret that move now.

I still think you miss the Gerald Wallace comparison.

These assertions that playing time develops players are just wrong

Teaching and practice develops players, not playing time

Giddens and Walker will not get better with playing time, they will only get exposed

Young players have to earn playing time not be given it to develop

I keep reading this notion that if only Walker or Giddens got playing time then they would develop

That is patently WRONG on EVERY level

Game playing time does not develop players that aren't good enough to earn the playing time on their own, and obviously neither has if Scal and Tony are being trotted out in front of them all the time

Consistent playing time develops confidence.

Correction

Consistent playing time for players with the talent and ability to be on the floor and have developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops confidence

Consistent playing time for players without the talent and ability to be on the floor or who have not developed enough in practices, scrimmages, walk throughs and the video room to have earned the right to be on the floor develops frustration, bad habits and losses

Big huge stuff you left out there

Sacramento did not believe Gerald had the talent. He, like Walker now, just needed some playing time to hone his skills.

Are you really comparing Walker to Wallace? Wallace isn't an all star just by getting 10 rebounds per game, buddy. 

I'm comparing Walker, right now, to Gerald Wallace when he played for Sacramento. Go look at the stats.


http://www.nba.com/playerfile/gerald_wallace/career_stats.html


http://www.nba.com/playerfile/bill_walker/career_stats.html

[Eja117]

How can you tell? They never play. Doc only put them in for like 2 minutes at the end of quaters.  When they do get time they are so scared to screw up that they are ineffictive.

All that matters is that Danny and Doc can tell because they see them all the time

Also, there's a reason teams are trying to trade for Hickson

It's because he was a top 20 pick in the draft, highly regarded out of college, have seen him excel in Summer League, and have reviewed video of his development in game situations over the last two years

Scouts and GMs are seeing he is a very talented young man

Neither Walker nor Giddens were highly regarded out college
Neither has excelled in the Summer league
Neither has been dominant in the NBDL
Neither has been good enough to crack a rotation
And neither has any video anywhere of them in NBA game situations showing that the get it at this level

Teams aren't bowling themselves over trying to make calls about Giddens and Walker because THEY have determined these players suck and the Celtics management made a mistake in choosing them

The Celtics can't develop them because they aren't good enough to develop

The Celtics(Danny, Doc) did however develop Rondo, Perk, Davis, Powe, West, Gomes, and Jefferson

Why

Because they had something to be developed and Walker and Giddens don't

Want to blast someone, blast Danny for choosing these players instead of Chris Douglas Roberts or Mario Chalmers or Luc Mbah a Moute or Goran Dragic or Nikola Pekovic or Kyle Weaver or DeAndre Jordan

But don't blame Doc and Danny for not developing NBA talent that wasn't NBA talent to begin with

Blame Danny for misjudging that these guys talents were better than players they could have chosen instead

Nailed it.

Agreed. Except I thought they did do well in the DL. Probably why they've spent a lot of time there

[PLamb]

How can you tell? They never play. Doc only put them in for like 2 minutes at the end of quaters.  When they do get time they are so scared to screw up that they are ineffictive.

All that matters is that Danny and Doc can tell because they see them all the time

Also, there's a reason teams are trying to trade for Hickson

It's because he was a top 20 pick in the draft, highly regarded out of college, have seen him excel in Summer League, and have reviewed video of his development in game situations over the last two years

Scouts and GMs are seeing he is a very talented young man

Neither Walker nor Giddens were highly regarded out college
Neither has excelled in the Summer league
Neither has been dominant in the NBDL
Neither has been good enough to crack a rotation
And neither has any video anywhere of them in NBA game situations showing that the get it at this level

Teams aren't bowling themselves over trying to make calls about Giddens and Walker because THEY have determined these players suck and the Celtics management made a mistake in choosing them

The Celtics can't develop them because they aren't good enough to develop

The Celtics(Danny, Doc) did however develop Rondo, Perk, Davis, Powe, West, Gomes, and Jefferson

Why

Because they had something to be developed and Walker and Giddens don't

Want to blast someone, blast Danny for choosing these players instead of Chris Douglas Roberts or Mario Chalmers or Luc Mbah a Moute or Goran Dragic or Nikola Pekovic or Kyle Weaver or DeAndre Jordan

But don't blame Doc and Danny for not developing NBA talent that wasn't NBA talent to begin with

Blame Danny for misjudging that these guys talents were better than players they could have chosen instead

Nailed it.

Agreed. Except I thought they did do well in the DL. Probably why they've spent a lot of time there

I said they didn't dominate the D-League

They were definitely good in the NBDL

Good in the NBDL does not translate into NBA player

Dominating the NBDL, to me(and also Don Nelson since I think this is the very reason he disliked Patrick O'Bryant, he didn't dominate the D-League) means you are an NBA player

EDIT:

The NBDL has about 80-100 really good players in the league that play extremely well for that level

Bill Walker, Lester Hudson and JR Giddens are 3 of those 80-100 players

They just aren't NBA rotational level talent, sorry

[Who]

I don't understand the Gerald Wallace + Bill Walker comparison.

Gerald Wallace showed himself to be an above average and talented defensive player + rebounder in contrast to Bill Walker who has been a very poor defender + below par rebounding forward. That's the difference between the two of them.

Both had comparable offensive games, no jumper + a weak handle + no go-to moves, who relied on their athleticism and slashing for easy baskets.

[More Banners]

It doesn't matter whether they're good or not, there's little chance they would be better than the guys ahead of them.  I don't really care how good they are; it is irrelevant.  They're not cracking our rotation as rookie (hudson) or 2nd year players.  Doc's offense, run correctly, allows a lot of flexibility and decision making.  Thibs' defense is quite exacting, too.  Young players have quite an uphill battle to be actual rotation players, raw talent be darned.

It does matter that other teams think they've got upside so we can use them to "sweeten" trades.  I want other teams to want them, even if we don't have a use for them on the court.  Other teams have to see them play for that to happen.

I saw Popovich draw up 7 plays for Matt Bonner to get dunks in a preseason game in Manchester.  Now Matt isn't exactly a star...but he sure as heck looked like one for 5 minutes that day.  He dominated, actually.  It was odd.

Could Doc draw up a few plays for the kids to look good for 5 minutes on a relatively consistent basis (like, against sub-500 teams)?  Of course he could, and next to our starters, either kid would look like an all-star, too.
 
Could that great defense of ours, with Perk and KG guarding the rim, cover for the inevitable few mistakes?  Probably.

They may or may not be good prospects, but we could at least show something besides their contract to teams wanting SOMETHING from their salary dump, fool's gold though it may be.

Could they have cracked the rotation?  They might well have potential, but they're not getting their break on this squad, and we haven't showcased them for anyone else, either.

[guava_wrench]

No matter what a coach does for a poor player, some fan can complain that the coach could have done more. This argument never ends until the player is out of the league, like Gerald Green or Pruitt.

[PLamb]

It doesn't matter whether they're good or not, there's little chance they would be better than the guys ahead of them.  I don't really care how good they are; it is irrelevant.  They're not cracking our rotation.

It does matter that other teams think they've got upside so we can use them to "sweeten" trades.  I want other teams to want them, even if we don't.  Other teams have to see them play for that to happen.

I saw Popovich draw up 7 plays for Matt Bonner to get dunks in a preseason game in Manchester.  Now Matt isn't exactly a star...but he sure as heck looked like one for 5 minutes that day.  He dominated, actually.  It was odd.

Could Doc draw up a few plays for the kids to look good for 5 minutes on a relatively consistent basis (like, against sub-500 teams)?  Of course he could, and next to our starters, either kid would look like an all-star, too.
 
Could that great defense of ours, with Perk and KG guarding the rim, cover for the inevitable few mistakes?  Probably.

They may or may not be good prospects, but we could at least show something besides their contract to teams wanting SOMETHING from their salary dump, fool's gold though it may be.

Could they have cracked the rotation?  They might well have potential, but they're not getting their break on this squad, and we haven't showcased them for anyone else, either.

This is ..........I don't know........weird, to say the least

You want this team, who's goal it is to win games to spend valuable practice time and coach's time drawing up and practicing plays drawn up specifically for the 14th and 15th players on our bench

You then want the team to instill these players in meaningful games in meaningful minutes to perform these plays for the sole purpose of trying to fool other GMs and scouts into believing these players are better than they are just so if we ever have to trade them they are more valuable than if they just tried to develop them properly

This one is out there, man

I've heard some stuff before but this one is way way out there