Author Topic: "We DO/DON'T Want Allen Iverson" Thread (merged)  (Read 116195 times)

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Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #495 on: November 20, 2011, 10:08:31 AM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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   First of all who did I call a punk?

 Secondly If he could "score at will" at two positions why exactly is he such an inefficient scorer(.425 career fg%....worse then that recently) who needs the ball in his hands to be effective?

    Just his style of play Iverson is a terrible fit in Boston without even considering his considerable baggage.  The Celtics  thrive on ball movement, making the extra pass.  Iverson is a classic ball hog, chucker, gunner, whatever you want to call it.  The Celtics score with great efficiency, Iverson does not.  The Celtics need to be more athletic on the perimeter if they want to continue to be an elite defensive team, Iverson hurts more then helps here.  These Celtics have been at their best when they have had great chemistry, Iverson has been toxic to team chemistry his entire career.

  Signing Iverson to ANY contract by the Boston Celtics is a step in the WRONG direction IMO.

   All of the guys I mentioned(Marbury, Cassell, Robinson) other then Davis had very little positive impact in their stays in Boston while playing on a Celtics team who's stars were younger and better then they will be the next time we see them on the court.   We don't need guys who can make a positive impact "at one time or another" we need guys who can make a positive impact night in and night out because the Big Three cannot dominate games as often or as easily as they could a few years ago.  Iverson hasn't made a consistent positive impact in a few years now(I question whether he ever did).  


  Also Iverson's MVP & Finals appearance were a decade ago. This isn't 2001.  The Eastern Conference that Iverson made a run to the Finals in was at an all-time low in terms of competition level.  That achievement is really over rated to me.  Those 76ers weren't even one of the top 8 teams in the NBA at that time IMO because every playoff team out west was better then any of the teams in the East.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 11:15:03 AM by CelticsFanNC »

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #496 on: November 20, 2011, 11:53:20 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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CelticFanNC is right on this one.  How did signing Shaq work out for us?  We are not the 86 Celtics who needs Bill Walton to be the final piece to push us to the title.

36 is old for a PG, that relies on speed.   I don't think he could school Delonte or Bradley at practice at this point.  IF Michael Finley sat on the pine for us what do you all think Iverson will do?

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #497 on: November 20, 2011, 01:20:16 PM »

Offline GranTur

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I'm ambivalent to Iverson joining the Celtics, though I think it's a low-risk, high reward move. I'm here just to clarify a huge misconception about Iverson, who is a top 15 guard of ALL-TIME:

Iverson was not nearly as inefficient as people thought...

Those 76ers were completely void of offense in Iverson's prime years...Iverson scored at an all-time high level while having to carry the hell out of his team...his shooting percentage would have been much better if he had another scoring option on that team. Also, he got to the line at an unbelievable rate which helped offset his field goal percentage.

His PPS was respectable.

Also, Iverson was not a liability on defense. That team was a defensive oriented team, and watching them play, it was clear Iverson did not require his teammates to bail him out. Head-to-head Iverson did well enough, even against the star PGs of the era.

Iverson's biggest problems are obsolete now...leadership? Work ethic? Maturity? These are all things that can't mess up an established Celtics team.

I doubt Iverson can make an ounce of difference on the Celtics winning a championship one way or another. I hear people debating about NBA topics ranging from the 50s to today. There are a lot of misconceptions about players that annoy me. This is one of those misconceptions.
"It's not how you play the game. It's whether you win or lose--that's my motto." -Larry Bird

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #498 on: November 20, 2011, 02:50:50 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Iverson was not nearly as inefficient as people thought...


Eek, a bold line of opinion.   There have been lots of guys on teams devoid of talent who shot better and scored almost as well.   I point to you as George Gervin as a prime example.

Career .425% from FG land and .313% from 3P land

I too can use bold.  But my are Iverson's career shooting percentages not just opinion.  They are facts.

.425% would own in baseball but in basketball that is pretty dismal shooting folks.

I get that he is a hero to many here.   Every one roots for David not Goliath.  Personally, I think we'd  be better served getting a shooter for our bench than a over the hill scorer.  He is not going to get his 20+ shots here so won't be near as good and that is not taking into consideration how long in the tooth he is today.

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #499 on: November 20, 2011, 03:08:13 PM »

Offline BASS_THUMPER

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Iverson was not nearly as inefficient as people thought...


Eek, a bold line of opinion.   There have been lots of guys on teams devoid of talent who shot better and scored almost as well.   I point to you as George Gervin as a prime example.

Career .425% from FG land and .313% from 3P land

I too can use bold.  But my are Iverson's career shooting percentages not just opinion.  They are facts.

.425% would own in baseball but in basketball that is pretty dismal shooting folks.

I get that he is a hero to many here.   Every one roots for David not Goliath.  Personally, I think we'd  be better served getting a shooter for our bench than a over the hill scorer.  He is not going to get his 20+ shots here so won't be near as good and that is not taking into consideration how long in the tooth he is today.


if he can get the ball down the court and make passes without turning the ball over he will be helping alot

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #500 on: November 20, 2011, 07:38:52 PM »

Offline TitleMaster

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I'd started this thread to lay down my edict on the barring of A.I. from the Celtics roster from here forth.

But somehow, the bad boy from Philly has re-surfaced and has some adherents, based upon a crossover dribble of the late 90s.

Folks ... the 90s are over. No more Nirvana, no more Alanis Morrisette and esp, no more Allen Iverson nor Vince Carter. Yes, notice that the aforementioned rockers and players are whiny and cancerous to those around them.

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #501 on: November 20, 2011, 08:24:04 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Right now I think E'twaun Moore is a better NBA player than Allen Iverson. He's shooting 45% while shooting 42% from 3 and is averaging 9.5 PPG in the Euroleague.

Besides. Moore is 6'4", isn't a tweener, has a future in this league.

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #502 on: November 20, 2011, 08:42:15 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Well, count me as an adherent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZykFbXQOYro

The man isn't perfect, but he's a hero to some.

If he somehow ends up on this team next season (if there is a season), I know he'll help us.

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #503 on: November 20, 2011, 08:59:17 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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If he somehow ends up on this team next season (if there is a season), I know he'll help us.
Well.....I think you hope he'll help us. I don't think you know he'll help us. ;D

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #504 on: November 20, 2011, 09:01:22 PM »

Offline chambers

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Right now I think E'twaun Moore is a better NBA player than Allen Iverson. He's shooting 45% while shooting 42% from 3 and is averaging 9.5 PPG in the Euroleague.

Besides. Moore is 6'4", isn't a tweener, has a future in this league.

That's a very good point.
I guess the argument is becoming more about whether or not Iverson would bring his baggage with him.

I guess this is a similar argument to big baby vs JJJ and the 6th man + backup 4 spot.


If we are playing the Miami Heat in game 7 of the ECF, who do we want coming off the bench ? Is one season enough time for rookies to shoulder such responsibility?
Are Iverson or Davis' past imperfections too significant to gamble on them?
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #505 on: November 20, 2011, 09:05:34 PM »

Offline chambers

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CelticFanNC is right on this one.  How did signing Shaq work out for us?  We are not the 86 Celtics who needs Bill Walton to be the final piece to push us to the title.

36 is old for a PG, that relies on speed.   I don't think he could school Delonte or Bradley at practice at this point.  IF Michael Finley sat on the pine for us what do you all think Iverson will do?

Shaq actually worked out extremely well- much better than anyone expected, until he got injured.
What injury scares/significant history does Iverson have?

And to cetlicsfan
   First of all who did I call a punk?

 Secondly If he could "score at will" at two positions why exactly is he such an inefficient scorer(.425 career fg%....worse then that recently) who needs the ball in his hands to be effective?

    Just his style of play Iverson is a terrible fit in Boston without even considering his considerable baggage.  The Celtics  thrive on ball movement, making the extra pass.  Iverson is a classic ball hog, chucker, gunner, whatever you want to call it.  The Celtics score with great efficiency, Iverson does not.  The Celtics need to be more athletic on the perimeter if they want to continue to be an elite defensive team, Iverson hurts more then helps here.  These Celtics have been at their best when they have had great chemistry, Iverson has been toxic to team chemistry his entire career.

  Signing Iverson to ANY contract by the Boston Celtics is a step in the WRONG direction IMO.

   All of the guys I mentioned(Marbury, Cassell, Robinson) other then Davis had very little positive impact in their stays in Boston while playing on a Celtics team who's stars were younger and better then they will be the next time we see them on the court.   We don't need guys who can make a positive impact "at one time or another" we need guys who can make a positive impact night in and night out because the Big Three cannot dominate games as often or as easily as they could a few years ago.  Iverson hasn't made a consistent positive impact in a few years now(I question whether he ever did). 


  Also Iverson's MVP & Finals appearance were a decade ago. This isn't 2001.  The Eastern Conference that Iverson made a run to the Finals in was at an all-time low in terms of competition level.  That achievement is really over rated to me.  Those 76ers weren't even one of the top 8 teams in the NBA at that time IMO because every playoff team out west was better then any of the teams in the East.
I didn't say you called anyone a punk, but you have classified this group of players as a strain on the team or our chances at a flag.

I don't want to argue about teams from 10 years ago. But it's funny that you think the 76ers weren't a top 8 caliber team back then. Does that mean Iverson had an even harder time carrying them on his own?
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #506 on: November 20, 2011, 10:05:56 PM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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CelticFanNC is right on this one.  How did signing Shaq work out for us?  We are not the 86 Celtics who needs Bill Walton to be the final piece to push us to the title.

36 is old for a PG, that relies on speed.   I don't think he could school Delonte or Bradley at practice at this point.  IF Michael Finley sat on the pine for us what do you all think Iverson will do?

Shaq actually worked out extremely well- much better than anyone expected, until he got injured.
What injury scares/significant history does Iverson have?

And to cetlicsfan
  First of all who did I call a punk?

 Secondly If he could "score at will" at two positions why exactly is he such an inefficient scorer(.425 career fg%....worse then that recently) who needs the ball in his hands to be effective?

    Just his style of play Iverson is a terrible fit in Boston without even considering his considerable baggage.  The Celtics  thrive on ball movement, making the extra pass.  Iverson is a classic ball hog, chucker, gunner, whatever you want to call it.  The Celtics score with great efficiency, Iverson does not.  The Celtics need to be more athletic on the perimeter if they want to continue to be an elite defensive team, Iverson hurts more then helps here.  These Celtics have been at their best when they have had great chemistry, Iverson has been toxic to team chemistry his entire career.

  Signing Iverson to ANY contract by the Boston Celtics is a step in the WRONG direction IMO.

   All of the guys I mentioned(Marbury, Cassell, Robinson) other then Davis had very little positive impact in their stays in Boston while playing on a Celtics team who's stars were younger and better then they will be the next time we see them on the court.   We don't need guys who can make a positive impact "at one time or another" we need guys who can make a positive impact night in and night out because the Big Three cannot dominate games as often or as easily as they could a few years ago.  Iverson hasn't made a consistent positive impact in a few years now(I question whether he ever did).  


  Also Iverson's MVP & Finals appearance were a decade ago. This isn't 2001.  The Eastern Conference that Iverson made a run to the Finals in was at an all-time low in terms of competition level.  That achievement is really over rated to me.  Those 76ers weren't even one of the top 8 teams in the NBA at that time IMO because every playoff team out west was better then any of the teams in the East.
I didn't say you called anyone a punk, but you have classified this group of players as a strain on the team or our chances at a flag.

I don't want to argue about teams from 10 years ago. But it's funny that you think the 76ers weren't a top 8 caliber team back then. Does that mean Iverson had an even harder time carrying them on his own?

  NO it means the Eastern Conference was so bad at that point in time that a team as average as those 76ers made it to the NBA finals.  The 'chuck and duck" Celtics of Jim O'Brien, Pierce and Walker that went to the conference finals the following year was equally unimpressive.  No one in the East was very good  and 8 to 10 teams in the West were better then anyone in the East at that point.  I'm not overly impressed with a guy leading the NBA in scoring by dominating every offensive possession  or leading a team to the Finals representing what was a pathetically bad conference in the early 2000's.  

  I'm even less impressed with Iverson now after over a decade since that over rated run that has seen almost no playoff success in 4 different NBA stops.

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #507 on: November 20, 2011, 10:25:44 PM »

Offline chambers

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CelticFanNC is right on this one.  How did signing Shaq work out for us?  We are not the 86 Celtics who needs Bill Walton to be the final piece to push us to the title.

36 is old for a PG, that relies on speed.   I don't think he could school Delonte or Bradley at practice at this point.  IF Michael Finley sat on the pine for us what do you all think Iverson will do?

Shaq actually worked out extremely well- much better than anyone expected, until he got injured.
What injury scares/significant history does Iverson have?

And to cetlicsfan
   First of all who did I call a punk?

 Secondly If he could "score at will" at two positions why exactly is he such an inefficient scorer(.425 career fg%....worse then that recently) who needs the ball in his hands to be effective?

    Just his style of play Iverson is a terrible fit in Boston without even considering his considerable baggage.  The Celtics  thrive on ball movement, making the extra pass.  Iverson is a classic ball hog, chucker, gunner, whatever you want to call it.  The Celtics score with great efficiency, Iverson does not.  The Celtics need to be more athletic on the perimeter if they want to continue to be an elite defensive team, Iverson hurts more then helps here.  These Celtics have been at their best when they have had great chemistry, Iverson has been toxic to team chemistry his entire career.

  Signing Iverson to ANY contract by the Boston Celtics is a step in the WRONG direction IMO.

   All of the guys I mentioned(Marbury, Cassell, Robinson) other then Davis had very little positive impact in their stays in Boston while playing on a Celtics team who's stars were younger and better then they will be the next time we see them on the court.   We don't need guys who can make a positive impact "at one time or another" we need guys who can make a positive impact night in and night out because the Big Three cannot dominate games as often or as easily as they could a few years ago.  Iverson hasn't made a consistent positive impact in a few years now(I question whether he ever did). 


  Also Iverson's MVP & Finals appearance were a decade ago. This isn't 2001.  The Eastern Conference that Iverson made a run to the Finals in was at an all-time low in terms of competition level.  That achievement is really over rated to me.  Those 76ers weren't even one of the top 8 teams in the NBA at that time IMO because every playoff team out west was better then any of the teams in the East.
I didn't say you called anyone a punk, but you have classified this group of players as a strain on the team or our chances at a flag.

I don't want to argue about teams from 10 years ago. But it's funny that you think the 76ers weren't a top 8 caliber team back then. Does that mean Iverson had an even harder time carrying them on his own?

  NO it means the Eastern Conference was so bad at that point in time that a team as average as those 76ers made it to the NBA finals.  The 'chuck and duck" Celtics of Jim O'Brien, Pierce and Walker that went to the conference finals the following year was equally unimpressive.  No one in the East was very good  and 8 to 10 teams in the West were better then anyone in the East at that point.  I'm not overly impressed with a guy leading the NBA in scoring by dominating every offensive possession  or leading a team to the Finals representing what was a pathetically bad conference in the early 2000's. 

  I'm even less impressed with Iverson now after over a decade since that over rated run that has seen almost no playoff success in 4 different NBA stops.

So if he had one decent offensive side kick or two decent contributors then he could have had multiple championships?
It's possible right?
Iverson had NO ONE to help him.
Even Dirk last year had an older Jason Kidd and Jason Terry to help carry the load through tough quarters.
Iverson had to play the LA Lakers with Shaq and Kobe.
He's one of the greatest PG's of all time. His supporting cast at the time was worse than Lebrons in Cleveland.
You're dissing Iverson by saying that his competition was no good yet he single handedly carried that team to play the Lakers.
Unfortunately even someone as talented as him couldn't combat that Lakers squad. Give him some help and it's a completely different story.
It's almost funny that you're calling him overrated because he took his team the to finals- like it's his fault that he had no decent wing men and that the conference was a poor standard.

You obviously hate the guy-which is understandable.
But if you do hate him, please make it for a certain part of his attitude, not his lack of skills or game. He had a passion and desire to go all the way with that 76ers team. Sometimes players don't get lucky like Jordan or Kobe with their Shaq and Pippens and their stories are tarnished.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #508 on: November 20, 2011, 11:16:47 PM »

Offline dtrader

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Nothing that can't be solved with a non-guaranteed contract, like the ones we gave Wafer and West last season.

Exactly, he has no money left-he's completely broke. He will be playing for his family and putting food on the table for them.
Put him on a non guaranteed contract and if he starts clownin' then cut him without pay.
Even mentioning the Celtics suggests that he wants to join a team of veterans who will not accept any bull****.
(Or it could be a front in an effort to sell his 'seriousness' about playing in the NBA as a role player.)




Why do people keep saying AI is broke?  Maybe I missed something, but I never heard anything about any AI bankruptcy filings.  I know he likes to gamble, but so does Jordan.  Never heard anything about Jordan being broke. 

At this point I dont understand why people call him a punk either.  All the "major" issues he had were like 6-8 years ago.  People grow up.  Even those incidents ( pulled over as a passenger in a car that had marijuana and a gun in it, and allegedly threatening 2 men with a gun while looking for his wife) don't seem that bad to me.  I realize people have strong reactions to guns if they dont grow up around them, but I dont think just being in a car with a gun makes you a punk.  I also dont think brandishing a weapon in the face of a few low lifes you think may have a hand in your wifes unexplained absence makes you a bad person.

 Kobe was brought up on rape charges, and Shaq has a had a list of offenses to his credit, that could be harder to explain than Iversons.  Neither is often regarded as a "punk".  Tony Allen has gang connections, and fought his own teammates over a gambling debt, but he's talked about on here with reverence.  The way i see it, people just aren't comfortable with the fact that AI made millions and never changed.  Everything from his hair, to his tattoos, to his style of dress and way of speaking, is a reflection of where he grew up, and mainstream America is still scared of that.

Re: I do not want Allen Iverson on the 2011-12 Celtics
« Reply #509 on: November 21, 2011, 12:32:34 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Why do people keep saying AI is broke?  Maybe I missed something, but I never heard anything about any AI bankruptcy filings.  I know he likes to gamble, but so does Jordan.  Never heard anything about Jordan being broke. 

This should inform you, Dtrader and it's a quick google search is all it took.  Proof of trouble.

http://minorityfortune.com/liabilities/allen-iverson-newest-financial-woes/

http://www.bvonsports.com/2010/03/09/allen-iverson-alcohol-gambling/

http://www.bvonmoney.com/2011/03/07/black-celebrity-finances-foreclosure-allen-iverson/

http://www.prlog.org/10190694-allen-iversons-mom-has-her-home-auctioned.html

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba-news-and-rumors/articles/81362-allen-iverson-banned-from-multiple-casinos

I take no pleasure in seeing the man have difficulties.  This would be bad stuff for anyone.  I hope he manages to bounce back and push himself back from the casio tables.   I just think he is too old to help here given his game has always been based more on his athletic ability than skill.  But it is a crying shame to see a millionaire lose his money whether it is at the tables or in the stock market.  Dude has more going on than his game to correct though and I wish him luck.  That being said I have stoutly been against him.  I don't he is the same player he once was in terms of ability.  But I don't hate him as a man.

I think Kobe is a punk, he disquises all kinds of attacks and hurts people in a sneaky way in a game still he is a helluva player.   He won't do it mano-e-mano but will stick his thumb in your eye or trip someone.  The rape has nothing to do with it but I dislike him because he is a Laker.  Shaq no, I would not call him a punk, he is big clown.   Iverson, I 've always thought of him as a balling warrior.  I don't think any of these guys are true gangster types and I think NBA ballers for the most part are protenders.  If you were really involved with illicit activities you don't broadcast it and if your really bad you don't need to pretend you are.   You know it in your heart and don't need to present like your Rambo. 

Most tough guys I knew were quiet types.   Bravado is just self assurance for the weak.  I have been in 26 fights of the bar fight variety (bouncer and soldier here) and the guys who pretended to be tough never gave me any problems.  But a quiet man is one to be wary of as you don't know what their are thinking.  My point of it is , it's really hard to tell who is a punk or not as we don't know these guys on a personal level.  I would think from the fighting I have seen the NBA about 99% are punks when it comes to fighting.  I don't consider the arm flailing girly punches you see in the game to be the fighting of true men.  But there are bound to be a few of them you would not want to meet in a dark alley.  I would bet most of them are more dangerous to themselves with a gun than they would be to others.  They are playing tough.   Why would they choose a 9mm so much.  A 10MM Glock 20 is far better weapon not to mention a shotgun.

Quote
Tony Allen has gang connections, and fought his own teammates over a gambling debt, but he's talked about on here with reverence.  The way i see it, people just aren't comfortable with the fact that AI made millions and never changed.  Everything from his hair, to his tattoos, to his style of dress and way of speaking, is a reflection of where he grew up, and mainstream America is still scared of that.

I had some so called gang guys try to scare me in the Army.  I was a big Cornfeed country boy back them ( 6'7" 235 lbs)  They tried to boss me around and I told them to @#$$ off.  They  then told me they were Crips ( to be honest I thought it was place to bury people) and gang members.  I told the two guys that they better look over their shoulder because it was only me and them and I have had enough of their crap.   They ran away like babies to the drill sergeant and ratted me out.  The drill sergeant sided with me.   I got those jerks back though when we got to use the pugel sticks and practice hand to hand on one other and if they were gang bangers they must have been low level errand boys because they could not fight a lick.  Not everyone is intimidated by gangs and I am from middle america keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

Iverson doesn't scare me one bit.  Tattoos don't make someone bad.  They are decorations.  Hair like that is something to grab ahold of in fight.  Short hair for the win as you can't grip it.  He isn't remotely a large or imposing man.  I think he was a good to great ball player but now he is over the hill.