2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : Team of the Future

[Roy Hobbs]

. . . One of the reasons being that the Portland offense will revolve around a perimeter shooting game . . .

Both Manu and Redd get to the hoop a ton, and Shaq is a dominant post force.  Portland has outside shooting, but I wouldn't say their offense revolves around it.

Toronto . . .  will have a toughness/size advantage at all one position, the SG position.

I don't think this statement is true, either.  Ilgauskas is taller than Shaq, but he's not stronger or "tougher".  Regarding Redd vs. Artest, they're the same height according to draftexpress (although Artest wins in both toughness and crazyness, probably), and Miller has all of one inch on Bibby.  Height isn't an advantage, but it's also not the disadvantage your post makes it out to be.

[Rondo2287]

Edgar, as your partner in crime , has so nicely pointed out in the past, When the celtics won the title, KG was the lead scorer in the playoffs.  So wouldent that mean that Pierce and Ray all though explosive werent quite as dominant as you are remembering them?

[Roy Hobbs]

And you make this big deal about how I will slow down Portland but.

How does the weakest defensive backcourt in the league slow down Finley and Miller both of who are good scorers, one better than the other

Finley isn't a good scorer.  He's a decent spot-up shooter.  That's it.  Miller is a good scorer, but Bibby has played him evenly.  Bibby will sag off him to cut down on penetration, as Miller is a terrible outside shooter.  Also, Manu will move over to help.

How does a smaller Manu slow down Artest?

Manu is guarding Finley in the starting lineup, but if he switches over to Artest, I don't see it as a problem.  Artest was one of the worst shooters inside the arc in the entire NBA last season.

How does Shaq cover Z on the perimeter

The same way he's always defended him.  Also, Z isn't a "perimeter" player, in that he doesn't have three point range.  Despite Shaq's alleged defensive deficiency here, he's held Z to single digits in 5 of 8 games in the last three years.

How does Rashard guard KG both on the perimeter and on the interior?

Again, the same way he's always guarded him.  KG has averaged 14 ppg against Lewis since coming to Boston.  Also, as we all know, KG loathes playing inside.

[KCattheStripe]

Edgar, as your partner in crime , has so nicely pointed out in the past, When the celtics won the title, KG was the lead scorer in the playoffs.  So wouldent that mean that Pierce and Ray all though explosive werent quite as dominant as you are remembering them?

I remember Pierce holding some kind of trophy at the end of that tournament.

[indeedproceed]

. . . One of the reasons being that the Portland offense will revolve around a perimeter shooting game . . .

Both Manu and Redd get to the hoop a ton, and Shaq is a dominant post force.  Portland has outside shooting, but I wouldn't say their offense revolves around it.

Redd last year was 41st overall in FT attempts per game in roughly 37 mins per game. Ginobli ranked lower. Maybe earlier in their respective careers you could've claimed they "get to the hoop a ton"..I know Manu was famous for it, but as their ages have increased and their games matured...that's hardly the case now.

[Rondo2287]

And you make this big deal about how I will slow down Portland but.

How does the weakest defensive backcourt in the league slow down Finley and Miller both of who are good scorers, one better than the other

Finley isn't a good scorer.  He's a decent spot-up shooter.  That's it.  Miller is a good scorer, but Bibby has played him evenly.  Bibby will sag off him to cut down on penetration, as Miller is a terrible outside shooter.  Also, Manu will move over to help.

How does a smaller Manu slow down Artest?

Manu is guarding Finley in the starting lineup, but if he switches over to Artest, I don't see it as a problem.  Artest was one of the worst shooters inside the arc in the entire NBA last season.

How does Shaq cover Z on the perimeter

The same way he's always defended him.  Also, Z isn't a "perimeter" player, in that he doesn't have three point range.  Despite Shaq's alleged defensive deficiency here, he's held Z to single digits in 5 of 8 games in the last three years.

How does Rashard guard KG both on the perimeter and on the interior?

Again, the same way he's always guarded him.  KG has averaged 14 ppg against Lewis since coming to Boston.  Also, as we all know, KG loathes playing inside.

Artest also shot 40 percent from beyond the Arc last year.  

I dont remember Z ever being covered by shaq away from the basket.  

Now we lets look at the circumstances of KG's sudden drop off from putting up big numbers against Rashard.  Could it have something to do with his attempts per game dropping and also the fact that Orlando has the defensive player of the year in the middle?

And I would argue most people playing against Redd could be good scorers on that night.  



and KC I know pierce had some trophey at the end of the finals.  But was it because he was a dominant scorer that didnt lead his team in scoring?

[Fafnir]

Edgar, as your partner in crime , has so nicely pointed out in the past, When the celtics won the title, KG was the lead scorer in the playoffs.  So wouldent that mean that Pierce and Ray all though explosive werent quite as dominant as you are remembering them?

I remember Pierce holding some kind of trophy at the end of that tournament.

I think each of the big 3 could have been voted Finals MVP. Pierce won that award because of his Game 1 comeback and his Game 5 dominance. But wasn't all that good other games. Those two games combined with his Game 7/Game 6 performance in the Cleveland/Detroit series earlier in the playoffs.

KG was easily our best player considering the whole playoffs.

[Roy Hobbs]

. . . One of the reasons being that the Portland offense will revolve around a perimeter shooting game . . .

Both Manu and Redd get to the hoop a ton, and Shaq is a dominant post force.  Portland has outside shooting, but I wouldn't say their offense revolves around it.

Redd last year was 41st overall in FT attempts per game in roughly 37 mins per game. Ginobli ranked lower. Maybe earlier in their respective careers you could've claimed they "get to the hoop a ton"..I know Manu was famous for it, but as their ages have increased and their games matured...that's hardly the case now.

You think a SG ranking 41st overall in free throw attempts is bad?  Redd was 9th in the NBA among shooting guards, which is probably the league's most talented position.  Also, 28% of his shots were from inside.  30% of Manu's were.  Those are good penetration numbers.

Also, for perspective, Manu averaged 0.8 fewer FTAs per 36 minutes than Paul Pierce. 

[Edgar]

Edgar, as your partner in crime , has so nicely pointed out in the past, When the celtics won the title, KG was the lead scorer in the playoffs.  So wouldent that mean that Pierce and Ray all though explosive werent quite as dominant as you are remembering them?

I remember Pierce holding some kind of trophy at the end of that tournament.

yes its called MVP
every championship team needs one
 
Trade PP for Artest next year
and my vote is your Rondo

Right now, just not enough fire power


p.s. Remember the comebacks....who lead them... i cant remember KG leading a single one


KG was the epitome of solid and great D. but what gives us the championship was the ability to put numbers fast at comebacks.

[Hoyo de Monterrey]

ATTENTION GMS OF: New York, Chicago, Detroit, Indiana, Miami/Cuba, Charlotte, Denver, Utah, Houston, San Antonio, Golden State, AND Las Vegas!!!

PUT YOUR ROSTERS IN THE CB DRAFT '09: SIMULATED SEASON PLANS THREAD PLEASE, ALONG WITH THE REAL NBA TEAMS YOUR PLAYERS ARE ON! THIS WILL HELP IN THE SIMLUATION! SEE THE EXAMPLES IN THAT THREAD!

THANK YOU.

[Roy Hobbs]

Now we lets look at the circumstances of KG's sudden drop off from putting up big numbers against Rashard.  Could it have something to do with his attempts per game dropping and also the fact that Orlando has the defensive player of the year in the middle?

How does that explain how Rashard scores on KG? 

[nickagneta]

. . . One of the reasons being that the Portland offense will revolve around a perimeter shooting game . . .

Both Manu and Redd get to the hoop a ton, and Shaq is a dominant post force.  Portland has outside shooting, but I wouldn't say their offense revolves around it.

Toronto . . .  will have a toughness/size advantage at all one position, the SG position.

I don't think this statement is true, either.  Ilgauskas is taller than Shaq, but he's not stronger or "tougher".  Regarding Redd vs. Artest, they're the same height according to draftexpress (although Artest wins in both toughness and crazyness, probably), and Miller has all of one inch on Bibby.  Height isn't an advantage, but it's also not the disadvantage your post makes it out to be.

Shaq used to be a dominant post player, he's not anymore. Just because he had a high FG% while playing alongside Amare Stoudemire doesn't mean he's a dominant low post force anymore. His shots per game has steadily decreased over the years and he is not an 18-19 shots per game guy any longer he's more of a 8-10 shots per game with probably 1-2 of those shots being off offensive rebounds. Shaq's time as a low post force have come and gone.

Also, I think size and toughness has a lot to do with rebounding and clearly every starting position except one is a clear advantage or a push Toronto's way. Bibby might be 1" shorter than Miller but he's not nearly as likely to go in and get a defensive rebound or take it into a crowd. Redd is not nearly as tough or physical or willing to crash inside for rebounds. Neither is Lewis as compared to KG. Shaq and Z are a push. So I stand by those statements.

As for the amount of time that Redd and Ginobelli are driving the basket over the last two seasons Manu has shot jump shots 74% and 70% of the time and Redd 71% and 70% of the time. That doesn't sound like they aren't perimeter players to me.

[KCattheStripe]

and KC I know pierce had some trophey at the end of the finals.  But was it because he was a dominant scorer that didnt lead his team in scoring?

Actually he did lead his team in scoring in the finals (Ray was second). Surprisingly the same was true for Pierce in the ECF. Interestingly, these were the two rounds of the playoffs that KG had never gotten past before. So I think Edgar's question stands, Who scores for KG when the bright lights are on?

[Roy Hobbs]

As for the amount of time that Redd and Ginobelli are driving the basket over the last two seasons Manu has shot jump shots 74% and 70% of the time and Redd 71% and 70% of the time. That doesn't sound like they aren't perimeter players to me.

All wings are perimeter players, by definition.  However, any time you're averaging 30% of your shots from inside, it means you get to the hoop.

For instance:  Paul Pierce, 73% of shots are jumpers. 

Do you consider Paul to be strictly a "perimeter player"? 

Or, D. Wade.  66% of his shots are jumpers.  Is he a "perimeter player"?

[Rondo2287]

on a different note, I wasnt really taking many of Redd's stats from last year in consideration since it was an abbreviated season so Rankings like that dont really hold much weight for me, I dunno(not a shot at injury, just I kinda threw last years stats out)


And Roy if you are talking about KG getting outscored by Rashard dont the points that KG puts up have a say in that too.  And Im telling you.  Put Rashard on a team without that inside force drawing defensive attention from both bigs he wouldnt be as effective.  I remember plenty of double teams and you dont so i dunno, but can you argue that Dwight at least didnt split defensive attention of almost everybody on the celtics team?


I would say that bright lights are on throughout the playoffs wouldnt you?  I would say that the guy that leads the team through four rounds is just as important than a guy that may lead in one series.  



But ya he sucked in the finals screw him