2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : Team of the Future

[Fafnir]

Well this is a bit off topic, but at this point in their careers are you saying you would rather have Duncan?

I don't think there's a point in their careers when I wouldn't have preferred Duncan.  That's probably material for another thread, but I'd be interested to hear the consensus on that one, too.  Generally, I think when most people talk about "best power forward of all-time", Duncan's name is listed first.

Well this is a bit off topic, but at this point in their careers are you saying you would rather have Duncan?

I don't think there's a point in their careers when I wouldn't have preferred Duncan.  That's probably material for another thread, but I'd be interested to hear the consensus on that one, too.  Generally, I think when most people talk about "best power forward of all-time", Duncan's name is listed first.

I do have a slight quibble with that "consensus" declaration. Duncan has shifted to play center effectively for the last several years of his career.

I think you need to compare him to all of the great big men in basketball history. Not just the ones who played the 4.

I think I'd take Garnett at this point. Simply because Duncan has been more banged up throughout this career. I worry that he's closer to the end than Garnett. Both have knee issues though....

[Roy Hobbs]

While I agree that Duncan is more of a center at this stage, he's almost universally listed as a power forward on "best of" lists.

I'd prefer Duncan.  I think they're equal defenders and basically equal rebounders (although KG's numbers have been down in Boston).  However, I think Duncan can score in more ways.  Also, I think Duncan has always had that extra something to get his team over the hump; four rings counts for a lot in my book.

Also, I think KG is closer to end (although I hope neither one retires any time soon), only because he's got a lot more wear and tear on his body.  Even though the two are the same age, KG has been playing for two extra seasons.  Garnett has played an extra 6500+ minutes, which is a fairly significant amount.  In recent seasons, Duncan has been more durable (15 games missed in the past four seasons, as compared to 48 for KG, including 6+ in each of those seasons), and his stats haven't declined as much from their peak.

[Fafnir]

While I agree that Duncan is more of a center at this stage, he's almost universally listed as a power forward on "best of" lists.

I'd prefer Duncan.  I think they're equal defenders and basically equal rebounders (although KG's numbers have been down in Boston).  However, I think Duncan can score in more ways.  Also, I think Duncan has always had that extra something to get his team over the hump; four rings counts for a lot in my book.

Also, I think KG is closer to end (although I hope neither one retires any time soon), only because he's got a lot more wear and tear on his body.  Even though the two are the same age, KG has been playing for two extra seasons.  Garnett has played an extra 6500+ minutes, which is a fairly significant amount.  In recent seasons, Duncan has been more durable (15 games missed in the past four seasons, as compared to 48 for KG, including 6+ in each of those seasons), and his stats haven't declined as much from their peak.

See I think Garnett is a better defender which pulls them even in my opinion. Duncan is a better offensive player just because he has a more varied post game.

The minutes difference isn't 6500, because Duncan has gone further in the playoffs. He's played an additional 3300 playoff minutes. Still more mileage on Garnett but its close, add on the extra Olympics team he played in and its closer still.

Also while Duncan hasn't missed as many games, he's clearly been playing at half speed towards the end of this year and much of last year. The decline in KG's numbers from peak isn't as great as many think because the C's have cut his minutes. Still you are right that Duncan's rebounding and scoring averages per/36 have held closer to his career numbers.

[Edgar]

While I agree that Duncan is more of a center at this stage, he's almost universally listed as a power forward on "best of" lists.

I'd prefer Duncan.  I think they're equal defenders and basically equal rebounders (although KG's numbers have been down in Boston).  However, I think Duncan can score in more ways.  Also, I think Duncan has always had that extra something to get his team over the hump; four rings counts for a lot in my book.

Also, I think KG is closer to end (although I hope neither one retires any time soon), only because he's got a lot more wear and tear on his body.  Even though the two are the same age, KG has been playing for two extra seasons.  Garnett has played an extra 6500+ minutes, which is a fairly significant amount.  In recent seasons, Duncan has been more durable (15 games missed in the past four seasons, as compared to 48 for KG, including 6+ in each of those seasons), and his stats haven't declined as much from their peak.

See I think Garnett is a better defender which pulls them even in my opinion. Duncan is a better offensive player just because he has a more varied post game.

The minutes difference isn't 6500, because Duncan has gone further in the playoffs. He's played an additional 3300 playoff minutes. Still more mileage on Garnett but its close, add on the extra Olympics team he played in and its closer still.

Also while Duncan hasn't missed as many games, he's clearly been playing at half speed towards the end of this year and much of last year. The decline in KG's numbers from peak isn't as great as many think because the C's have cut his minutes. Still you are right that Duncan's rebounding and scoring averages per/36 have held closer to his career numbers.

I think we are all focusing in starting lineups and again missing the importance of the benchs
Turiaf , Jermaine oneal,  Miller and Gomes will be a LOT more help than Camby
when all is said and done bench will prevail in this matchup, and in portland we feel pretty comfident about our bench

[Rondo2287]

At this point in their Careers I think Camby contributes more than JO, Camby's Rebounding and defensive advantage more than makes up for those 4 points more a game JO scores.  And I dont see anybody on your team long and quick enough to matchup on Warrick, Miller cant do it, I dont think JO can do it.  And Francisco Garcia is better than Gomes at this point. However Delonte is well above Barea at this point. 

[Edgar]

At this point in their Careers I think Camby contributes more than JO, Camby's Rebounding and defensive advantage more than makes up for those 4 points more a game JO scores.  And I dont see anybody on your team long and quick enough to matchup on Warrick, Miller cant do it, I dont think JO can do it.  And Francisco Garcia is better than Gomes at this point. However Delonte is well above Barea at this point. 

ok I am not comparing camby to JO
even if i think i win that one too.
I am comparing

JO, Miller, Turiaf, Gomes, Dudley at PF vrs. Camby and Warrick
Garcia will never play PF gomes can.


Wast Garcial your starting Guard..I dont know about him being better than gomes, theyre probably in the same league by now , but Gomes is more versatile talking big.

[Rondo2287]

Do you think Gomes is quick enough to cover Warrick?  I always got the impression that Gomes was too slow to cover SF's and too small to be a good defender on PF's.   

And thats fine that you have 6 guys that can play the position.  I have 4.  I have KG who is better than Rashard and Z who has played shaq evenly in their last handful of matchups.  Meanwhile when you go to the bench, im not sure how effective JO, Miller will be against Camby and KG. 

And your right Edgar I wouldnt dream of playing my SG at PF

[Rondo2287]

And I guess I am interested in how you are gameplanning for this series that you think Jared Dudley is relevent to bring up?  Especially at PF where he was innefective playing in college

[Edgar]

Do you think Gomes is quick enough to cover Warrick?  I always got the impression that Gomes was too slow to cover SF's and too small to be a good defender on PF's.   

And thats fine that you have 6 guys that can play the position.  I have 4.  I have KG who is better than Rashard and Z who has played shaq evenly in their last handful of matchups.  Meanwhile when you go to the bench, im not sure how effective JO, Miller will be against Camby and KG. 

And your right Edgar I wouldnt dream of playing my SG at PF

Its just a matter of matchup and fouls
this seems like a phisical series where warrick will probably have his share of fouls playing post up JO and naughty miller style
Depth will prevail.

pst and even if Garcial plays SG hes a SF

[Edgar]

And I guess I am interested in how you are gameplanning for this series that you think Jared Dudley is relevent to bring up?  Especially at PF where he was innefective playing in college

Dudley will wave the towel with great style.

[Roy Hobbs]

Who can Warrick guard?  Your primary backup PF is a 6'9", frail SF/PF who isn't a good shooter.  Also, you're underestimating J.O.'s defense.  He's a much better man-to-man defender than Camby is.

[Edgar]

And thats fine that you have 6 guys that can play the position.  I have 4.  I have KG who is better than Rashard and Z who has played shaq evenly in their last handful of matchups.  Meanwhile when you go to the bench, im not sure how effective JO, Miller will be against Camby and KG. 

hey youre repeating KG on your starting and your bench matchup
hes old man ( well not that old ) but coming from and injurie and not a kid anymore.
youre going to kill the guy.

[Roy Hobbs]

And thats fine that you have 6 guys that can play the position.  I have 4.  I have KG who is better than Rashard and Z who has played shaq evenly in their last handful of matchups.  Meanwhile when you go to the bench, im not sure how effective JO, Miller will be against Camby and KG.

First, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.  You can't argue "Z had played Shaq evenly", and then argue "KG is better than Rashard".  Rashard has dominated KG head-to-head in the last seven matchups.

Second, as Edgar says, how many minutes are you playing KG?  48?  You can't really say "KG will be defending both your starters and your bench players".  It doesn't work that way. 

Third, the J.O. plus Miller tandem is an excellent defensive pairing and a good offensive one, but I wouldn't expect to see Edgar going to a "4 or 5 bench guys in at the same time" look. 

Lastly, why are you matching up Francisco Garcia with Ryan Gomes?  Gomes is a backup 3/4; if Edgar needs to backup the 2, he'll slide Michael Redd over, or he'll use Delonte.  Unless, of course, you suggest using Garcia as your primary backup 3, in which case Marco Bellinelli is your backup 2? 

[Rondo2287]

And I guess I am interested in how you are gameplanning for this series that you think Jared Dudley is relevent to bring up?  Especially at PF where he was innefective playing in college

Dudley will wave the towel with great style.

Thats fine but its pointless to bring up in an argument about how your bench is better than mine then.  And I guess you can say Garcia is a SF but his playing time at the SG position would prove otherwise

And Roy he isnt my primary backup PF because with Z starting I will be able to bring Camby off the bench to spell both Z and KG.  But sure you can say hes frail which im sure most people would disagree with.  KG is skinny too and I doubt most people would call him frail. I mean that just isnt true, lets be honest here.  

And im not going to get into who is a better man to man defender. I have watched Camby play alot as a closet Clippers fan, and I think he is great.  And there are no stats to back up either of our arguments so ya, I dont think its worth it.  


And why doesnt it work that, way, this is the finals.  After watching KG you really think he is going to let a coach take him out of a close game in the finals just because he is getting up there in minutes?

And I didnt mean to matchup him up with gomes, I thought edgar was just talking bench as a whole, not focussing on individual matchups

[Rondo2287]

sorry about the length of that last post, every time i tried to click post it kept coming up with a new argument that you guys posted so I had to keep adding on