2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : Team of the Future

[Roy Hobbs]

Toronto.  (I am a KG mark right now)

What happened to the mod conspiracy?! 

That TP payment was late.   



No, I like KG in the matchup. 

KG?!  What has he done for us lately?   

(I do think Rashard kind of has his number, though, although I'd be happy to be proven wrong on that one in the playoffs.)

[wdleehi]

Toronto.  (I am a KG mark right now)

What happened to the mod conspiracy?! 

That TP payment was late.   



No, I like KG in the matchup. 

KG?!  What has he done for us lately?   

(I do think Rashard kind of has his number, though, although I'd be happy to be proven wrong on that one in the playoffs.)

He didn't.  KG has the wheels to keep with him enough on the outside but the size and speed to hurt him the other way.

[Roy Hobbs]

He didn't.  KG has the wheels to keep with him enough on the outside but the size and speed to hurt him the other way.

In theory.  It just hasn't really happened during KG's time in Boston.

[wdleehi]

He didn't.  KG has the wheels to keep with him enough on the outside but the size and speed to hurt him the other way.

In theory.  It just hasn't really happened during KG's time in Boston.

It will this year.

[bucknersrevenge]

and still Ron's size is gonna be a nightmare for Redd who is simply gonna get bullied down low and even if Artest missed he'll be grabbing his own rebounds. Finley's perimeter shooting is a perfect compliment for artest and miller's ability to drive. Once Manu brings the help, the kickout to Finley or Garcia comes. Or even better 1-5 pick and pop against Bibby and Shaq all night=bad combination. The fact that KG and Z are exceptional perimeter shooters is what's gonna expose Shaq's poor defensive ability all night.

Artest doesn't really drive, and he doesn't really post up.  Artest finished less that 50% of his inside shots last season (he was third worst in that category), and shot 34.3% on two point shots overall (again, third worst). If he was as good abusing his man as you say he is, those numbers would be a lot better.  Also, as pointed out above, your theory is ignoring "real life".  Redd has outscored Artest the last six times they've played.  In those six games, Redd has gone for 24+ in five of them (and 20 in the other).  Artest has scored 11 or fewer points in three of those six games.

I think Z's size and Camby's length will bother Shaq all night and I think they can systematically bring doubles if need be from a different place each time if need be. However he's gonna give up too many points on defense and they'll eventually have to take him out to match up. Once that happens the Orlando offense falters. So yeah still don't see anything Portland can throw out that Toronto can't matchup with.

I just don't see it like this.  Camby defending Shaq one-on-one is a nightmare scenario.  Shaq has 100+ pounds on him, and two inches of height.  As for Big Z, if he's the defender you say he is, Cleveland never would have traded for Shaq.  Again, this is a situation where, if you're correct, where's the evidence of it happening in real life?

Lastly, I disagree that the Portland offense falters with Shaq out of the game.  With guys like Redd, Manu, Rashard, and Bibby, scoring shouldn't be a problem.

I don't think the offense falters but obviously you can't run the Orlando offense without Shaq. Brad Miller nor Jermaine are not legit post up threats. The problem is Portland is trying to run that offense through a 37 yr old center that's been banged around the NBA for 17 yrs. At his most effective Shaq is good for about 30 minutes and again that doesn't take into account his general ineffectiveness at the defense end. He's gonna be slow rotating to cut off penetration and if he cheats he gives up 2 by his man guaranteed. If Portland runs a Shaq/Lewis frontcourt they'll be a dreadful defensive duo. Shaq's best rebounding days are gone and Lewis' best never began.

Cleveland traded for Shaq because they wanted an interior post option for offense. You'd be deluding yourself if you thought they acquired Shaq for his defense. And Artest drives and posts up. I get that you're choosing to keep a blind eye to that because your Portland's GM but it happens. Hey no one's gonna say Artest is an elite scorer the likes of Redd. So throwing out stats that say Redd outscored Artest isn't telling anyone here anything. Redd is a better scorer. But Artest can certain put up 17-20 on him. Sorry to disappoint. And that's a bad matchup for Portland. As for a Redd-Artest matchup that has rarely happened. Usually they wouldn't be guarding each other as Redd a 2guard in the past has guarded Battier or T-Mac. Someone said this is a bad matchup for Toronto but in actuality this is a bad matchup in many ways for Portland. They can't do effectively what they're trying to do.

[indeedproceed]

He didn't.  KG has the wheels to keep with him enough on the outside but the size and speed to hurt him the other way.

In theory.  It just hasn't really happened during KG's time in Boston.

It will this year.

Haha. No you are!

[nickagneta]

3..............
2..............
1..............

Blast off!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And here come the incredulous disbelief and defensive comments regarding CFF's comments about no superstar in Portland!!!!

[KCattheStripe]

3..............
2..............
1..............

Blast off!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And here come the incredulous disbelief and defensive comments regarding CFF's comments about no superstar in Portland!!!!

Truth.

[indeedproceed]

I cannot for the life of me find the scooby do "Huh?!" thing on youtube. Shame.

[nickagneta]

I cannot for the life of me find the scooby do "Huh?!" thing on youtube. Shame.

Will this do?




Huh?

[Roy Hobbs]

3..............
2..............
1..............

Blast off!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And here come the incredulous disbelief and defensive comments regarding CFF's comments about no superstar in Portland!!!!

Haha.  I think the vote is fine, and I've heard the argument plenty of times before.  In fact, it's pretty much the conventional wisdom, although most people go with "super-duperstar".

I'm not necessarily sure what the confines of "superstar" are, though.  How many of them are there in the league?  5?  20?  If you're talking about the absolutely elite players -- Lebron, CP3, Howard, Wade, Kobe, Duncan, arguably Carmelo, and in the future Durant --  it's pretty clear Portland doesn't have one.  However, if the criteria is excellent players -- a category that would include guys like Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, Kevin Martin, Pau Gasol, etc. -- then Portland absolutely falls into that category.  I think Rashard Lewis, Manu Ginobili, and Michael Redd are all stars, and Shaq is still a top-5 center.

[Rondo2287]

3..............
2..............
1..............

Blast off!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And here come the incredulous disbelief and defensive comments regarding CFF's comments about no superstar in Portland!!!!

Haha.  I think the vote is fine, and I've heard the argument plenty of times before.  In fact, it's pretty much the conventional wisdom, although most people go with "super-duperstar".

I'm not necessarily sure what the confines of "superstar" are, though.  How many of them are there in the league?  5?  20?  If you're talking about the absolutely elite players -- Lebron, CP3, Howard, Wade, Kobe, Duncan, arguably Carmelo, and in the future Durant --  it's pretty clear Portland doesn't have one.  However, if the criteria is excellent players -- a category that would include guys like Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, Kevin Martin, Pau Gasol, etc. -- then Portland absolutely falls into that category.  I think Rashard Lewis, Manu Ginobili, and Michael Redd are all stars, and Shaq is still a top-5 center.

Cough**Kevin Garnett too**Cough

[Roy Hobbs]

3..............
2..............
1..............

Blast off!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And here come the incredulous disbelief and defensive comments regarding CFF's comments about no superstar in Portland!!!!

Haha.  I think the vote is fine, and I've heard the argument plenty of times before.  In fact, it's pretty much the conventional wisdom, although most people go with "super-duperstar".

I'm not necessarily sure what the confines of "superstar" are, though.  How many of them are there in the league?  5?  20?  If you're talking about the absolutely elite players -- Lebron, CP3, Howard, Wade, Kobe, Duncan, arguably Carmelo, and in the future Durant --  it's pretty clear Portland doesn't have one.  However, if the criteria is excellent players -- a category that would include guys like Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, Kevin Martin, Pau Gasol, etc. -- then Portland absolutely falls into that category.  I think Rashard Lewis, Manu Ginobili, and Michael Redd are all stars, and Shaq is still a top-5 center.

Cough**Kevin Garnett too**Cough

The list of excellent players wasn't meant to be exhaustive.

It would be interesting to take a poll around the league, and see whether fans on other teams see KG as closer to a "super-duperstar" at this point, or just as an excellent player. 

I love KG, and I try not to say anything bad about him.  However, he absolutely has declined from his prime, and it would be interesting to get an accurate assessment of what his value is.

[Rondo2287]

Well this is a bit off topic, but at this point in their careers are you saying you would rather have Duncan?

[Roy Hobbs]

Well this is a bit off topic, but at this point in their careers are you saying you would rather have Duncan?

I don't think there's a point in their careers when I wouldn't have preferred Duncan.  That's probably material for another thread, but I'd be interested to hear the consensus on that one, too.  Generally, I think when most people talk about "best power forward of all-time", Duncan's name is listed first.