ESPN article says Powe > Davis, and its a mystery why he starts..

[BballTim]

You're trying to make 15 for 29 seem like a big pool of data.  As a season, he's 43% overall (in the PF & C spot).  Personally, I don't classify his jump shot as consistent at this point.

But, the primary reason for Hollinger's stat conclusion has more to do with the defense of the team when BBD is on the court.  And with this, I vehemently agree with him.

Yet another example of someone who either doesn't read the entire post or just refuses to listen to what I am saying.

I said over the last 2+ months he's shooting the outside shot consistently. I said ignore the seasonal FG% because it wasn't a good indicator of his current jumpshot(or at least intimated this).

The 15 for 29 is not a big enough number to judge by and even said I wish that Hot Shots would allow for longer views of that stat.

Cordobes(TP4U) just gave you his jump shooting number for his last 92 shots. That I believe, is a large enough indicator of how his shot is falling.

Also if you take his 2009 FG% of 87 for 183 he has been shooting at a very healthy and respectable(for a second year bench player) 47.5%. That so happens to be the exact shooting percentage for the year of Dirk Nowitzki and Kobe Bryant.

And let's remember, FG% is not always an indicator of whether a player is consistently hitting an outside shot or not. Remember Rondo's FG% is over 51% and I don't think anyone is foolish enough to believe that that makes him a good outside shooter or even a consistent one.

  Rondo's hit as well as Davis from the outside over the last 10 games. His jump shot fg% over the season (35.3%) is slightly worse than BBD's (.365), but if you can recall that he started the season shooting poorly and was below 10% for a while you'd have to assume that he's probably also been around 40% for the last 40 games or so. If nobody should be foolish enough to think that Rondo's a consistent outside shooter then you shouldn't be surprised when people think that someone who's numbers are about the same as Rondo's is also inconsistent.

except that rondo is a starting guard, and as such is expected to have a at least average jump shot.

on the other hand, baby is a bench player, and a big besides. 40% on jumpers for a bench big is in fact decent. If he was a gaurd and expected to be a knock down shooter, it wouldn't be.

If he had KG's jumpshot %, he wouldn't be a bench player.

  But that's a separate issue. Whether BBD shoots well for a reserve or for a big man has no effect on whether or not he shoots a jumper more consistently than Rondo.

...but it affects the relevance of your initial comparison. Baby`s jumper doesn`t have to compete with Rondo`s jumper. It is good enough.

  I didn't make the initial comparison. I responded to Nick's post where he said that Davis hits his jumpers consistently while Rondo shoots his inconsistently. If he meant that Davis is more consistent for a big than Rondo is for a pg or that Davis shoots better for a reserve than Rondo does for a starter then I'd agree with you. But if he's just saying that Davis's jumper goes in consistently while Rondo's doesn't then the comparison is relevant.

[BballTim]

You're trying to make 15 for 29 seem like a big pool of data.  As a season, he's 43% overall (in the PF & C spot).  Personally, I don't classify his jump shot as consistent at this point.

But, the primary reason for Hollinger's stat conclusion has more to do with the defense of the team when BBD is on the court.  And with this, I vehemently agree with him.

Yet another example of someone who either doesn't read the entire post or just refuses to listen to what I am saying.

I said over the last 2+ months he's shooting the outside shot consistently. I said ignore the seasonal FG% because it wasn't a good indicator of his current jumpshot(or at least intimated this).

The 15 for 29 is not a big enough number to judge by and even said I wish that Hot Shots would allow for longer views of that stat.

Cordobes(TP4U) just gave you his jump shooting number for his last 92 shots. That I believe, is a large enough indicator of how his shot is falling.

Also if you take his 2009 FG% of 87 for 183 he has been shooting at a very healthy and respectable(for a second year bench player) 47.5%. That so happens to be the exact shooting percentage for the year of Dirk Nowitzki and Kobe Bryant.

And let's remember, FG% is not always an indicator of whether a player is consistently hitting an outside shot or not. Remember Rondo's FG% is over 51% and I don't think anyone is foolish enough to believe that that makes him a good outside shooter or even a consistent one.

  Rondo's hit as well as Davis from the outside over the last 10 games. His jump shot fg% over the season (35.3%) is slightly worse than BBD's (.365), but if you can recall that he started the season shooting poorly and was below 10% for a while you'd have to assume that he's probably also been around 40% for the last 40 games or so. If nobody should be foolish enough to think that Rondo's a consistent outside shooter then you shouldn't be surprised when people think that someone who's numbers are about the same as Rondo's is also inconsistent.

except that rondo is a starting guard, and as such is expected to have a at least average jump shot.

on the other hand, baby is a bench player, and a big besides. 40% on jumpers for a bench big is in fact decent. If he was a gaurd and expected to be a knock down shooter, it wouldn't be.

If he had KG's jumpshot %, he wouldn't be a bench player.

  But that's a separate issue. Whether BBD shoots well for a reserve or for a big man has no effect on whether or not he shoots a jumper more consistently than Rondo.

But it is an issue that is not very relevant to the overall topic of this thread. Which is why does/did BBD have the role he did as KG's replacement.

  True.

[Casperian]

You're trying to make 15 for 29 seem like a big pool of data.  As a season, he's 43% overall (in the PF & C spot).  Personally, I don't classify his jump shot as consistent at this point.

But, the primary reason for Hollinger's stat conclusion has more to do with the defense of the team when BBD is on the court.  And with this, I vehemently agree with him.

Yet another example of someone who either doesn't read the entire post or just refuses to listen to what I am saying.

I said over the last 2+ months he's shooting the outside shot consistently. I said ignore the seasonal FG% because it wasn't a good indicator of his current jumpshot(or at least intimated this).

The 15 for 29 is not a big enough number to judge by and even said I wish that Hot Shots would allow for longer views of that stat.

Cordobes(TP4U) just gave you his jump shooting number for his last 92 shots. That I believe, is a large enough indicator of how his shot is falling.

Also if you take his 2009 FG% of 87 for 183 he has been shooting at a very healthy and respectable(for a second year bench player) 47.5%. That so happens to be the exact shooting percentage for the year of Dirk Nowitzki and Kobe Bryant.

And let's remember, FG% is not always an indicator of whether a player is consistently hitting an outside shot or not. Remember Rondo's FG% is over 51% and I don't think anyone is foolish enough to believe that that makes him a good outside shooter or even a consistent one.

  Rondo's hit as well as Davis from the outside over the last 10 games. His jump shot fg% over the season (35.3%) is slightly worse than BBD's (.365), but if you can recall that he started the season shooting poorly and was below 10% for a while you'd have to assume that he's probably also been around 40% for the last 40 games or so. If nobody should be foolish enough to think that Rondo's a consistent outside shooter then you shouldn't be surprised when people think that someone who's numbers are about the same as Rondo's is also inconsistent.

except that rondo is a starting guard, and as such is expected to have a at least average jump shot.

on the other hand, baby is a bench player, and a big besides. 40% on jumpers for a bench big is in fact decent. If he was a gaurd and expected to be a knock down shooter, it wouldn't be.

If he had KG's jumpshot %, he wouldn't be a bench player.

  But that's a separate issue. Whether BBD shoots well for a reserve or for a big man has no effect on whether or not he shoots a jumper more consistently than Rondo.

But it is an issue that is not very relevant to the overall topic of this thread. Which is why does/did BBD have the role he did as KG's replacement.

  True.

And that´s what I meant. I see you didn´t make the initial comparison, nick´s argument was that FG% is not a 100% reliable indicator of a player´s ability to shoot, and it appeared to me as if you drew conclusions to the thread topic. I was explaining crownsy´s line of thinking.

Anyway, I´m on a hot streak bringing CB poster to round TP numbers.
Congratulations on 200 TPs.

[nickagneta]

As Casperian said, I was making the point that FG% is not always a good indicator as to whether a person is a good outside shooter or not. I mentioned Rondo because it is pretty much a given that Rondo is not a good outside shooter and is very inconsistent with it.

Your whole argument of saying Rondo's numbers are similar so he is also a consistent shooter or that Baby's isn't one because the numbers are close is based entirely upon your assumption that Rondo's jump shooting percentage at one point was at 10% so he must be hitting it consistently to get where he is. I can't find ANY evidence that Rondo's jump shooting numbers with a decent sampling were ever that low. As a matter of fact most numbers I did dig up showed him to be around 33% for most of the year with a slight rise in percentage made as the year went on and a good spike to nearly 50% made recently(10-15) games or so.

But Rondo gets a lot more time to play and more shots to shoot. Your claim that they shoot about the same number of outside shots is wrong. Upon further review I was wrong with my explanation of why Rondo would raise his numbers that quickly. First off I never found evidence that his numbers were that low(10%) with a good sampling and Rondo shoots the shot more than Baby so the reverse is actually true. It would be easier for Baby to move his percentage than it would be for Rondo. Rondo averages about 4 outside shots a game. Baby only shoots a little more than 4 shots per game no matter what the shot.

Besides, observational assessment tells me that although his form is ugly Baby is definitely more confident in taking the shot and is better at it than Rondo right now. Also context does come into play. Rondo is expected to be a better shooter because he is a PG. PF/C while over the last decade or so are more and more becoming outside shooters, the opposite expectation is true for them.

Anyways, my point was that one should not look at Baby's FG% as a whole and determine him to be a bad outside shooter right now the same way one should not look at Rondo's 51% and think he's an excellent shooter, one of the best in the league, simply because he has the highest FG% among guards in the NBA. Rondo clearly isn't, that's all I was saying.

[BballTim]

As Casperian said, I was making the point that FG% is not always a good indicator as to whether a person is a good outside shooter or not. I mentioned Rondo because it is pretty much a given that Rondo is not a good outside shooter and is very inconsistent with it.

  Sure, it's a well known fact that Rondo's not a good outside shooter. It's also fairly clear that BBD is not much better if at all better.

Your whole argument of saying Rondo's numbers are similar so he is also a consistent shooter or that Baby's isn't one because the numbers are close is based entirely upon your assumption that Rondo's jump shooting percentage at one point was at 10% so he must be hitting it consistently to get where he is. I can't find ANY evidence that Rondo's jump shooting numbers with a decent sampling were ever that low. As a matter of fact most numbers I did dig up showed him to be around 33% for most of the year with a slight rise in percentage made as the year went on and a good spike to nearly 50% made recently(10-15) games or so.

  I couldn't find any evidence other than my memory that Rondo's jump shooting numbers were that low, but I wasn't expecting to. I'm pretty sure he missed something like 20 of his first 22 outside shots this year. The smallish search that I did on the subject came up with one post on another board (son of sam horn) by home run baker from January the 8th:

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=39727&mode=threaded&pid=2069693#

  "Rondo's eFG% on jumpshots last season was 42.2%......this year he is shooting them at 25.2%."

  Could I see a link to what says he was hitting over 30% of his jump shots early this year?

  Even if you don't believe that he was shooting lower than 25%, the fact that he was at 25% 2 months ago and he's now at 35% means that he's been hitting near or (more likely) above 40% over the last 2 months. We also know that he's been shooting slightly better than BBD over the last 10 games.

But Rondo gets a lot more time to play and more shots to shoot. Your claim that they shoot about the same number of outside shots is wrong. Upon further review I was wrong with my explanation of why Rondo would raise his numbers that quickly. First off I never found evidence that his numbers were that low(10%) with a good sampling and Rondo shoots the shot more than Baby so the reverse is actually true. It would be easier for Baby to move his percentage than it would be for Rondo. Rondo averages about 4 outside shots a game. Baby only shoots a little more than 4 shots per game no matter what the shot.

  Yet Rondo clearly has raised his shooting percentage. FYI, by the 82games Rondo takes about 3.6 outside shots a game and Davis takes about 3, so it's reasonably close. I was looking at the nba hotspots (which I think someone mentioned) and if you take the outer 2 rings (3 point shots and generally foul line or farther) Davis has taken about 6 more outside shots this year, and I think 2-3 more in the last 10 games. So Rondo's taking and making a similar amount of outside shots as Davis (both recently and on the season).

Besides, observational assessment tells me that although his form is ugly Baby is definitely more confident in taking the shot and is better at it than Rondo right now. Also context does come into play. Rondo is expected to be a better shooter because he is a PG. PF/C while over the last decade or so are more and more becoming outside shooters, the opposite expectation is true for them.

  Your observational assessment seems to be incorrect, unless you can show me some numbers that show Davis actually shooting better than Rondo. And as for the context, if your point was that Rondo isn't a worse outside shooter than Davis but Rondo's expected to be better because he's a guard then you should rethink some of your earlier points. It seemed you were saying that Davis is a better, more consistent outside shooter, not a similar shooter (which was my point) who's not expected to shoot as well as a guard.

[EJPLAYA]

You're trying to make 15 for 29 seem like a big pool of data.  As a season, he's 43% overall (in the PF & C spot).  Personally, I don't classify his jump shot as consistent at this point.

But, the primary reason for Hollinger's stat conclusion has more to do with the defense of the team when BBD is on the court.  And with this, I vehemently agree with him.

Yet another example of someone who either doesn't read the entire post or just refuses to listen to what I am saying.

I said over the last 2+ months he's shooting the outside shot consistently. I said ignore the seasonal FG% because it wasn't a good indicator of his current jumpshot(or at least intimated this).

The 15 for 29 is not a big enough number to judge by and even said I wish that Hot Shots would allow for longer views of that stat.

Cordobes(TP4U) just gave you his jump shooting number for his last 92 shots. That I believe, is a large enough indicator of how his shot is falling.

Also if you take his 2009 FG% of 87 for 183 he has been shooting at a very healthy and respectable(for a second year bench player) 47.5%. That so happens to be the exact shooting percentage for the year of Dirk Nowitzki and Kobe Bryant.

And let's remember, FG% is not always an indicator of whether a player is consistently hitting an outside shot or not. Remember Rondo's FG% is over 51% and I don't think anyone is foolish enough to believe that that makes him a good outside shooter or even a consistent one.

  Rondo's hit as well as Davis from the outside over the last 10 games. His jump shot fg% over the season (35.3%) is slightly worse than BBD's (.365), but if you can recall that he started the season shooting poorly and was below 10% for a while you'd have to assume that he's probably also been around 40% for the last 40 games or so. If nobody should be foolish enough to think that Rondo's a consistent outside shooter then you shouldn't be surprised when people think that someone who's numbers are about the same as Rondo's is also inconsistent.

except that rondo is a starting guard, and as such is expected to have a at least average jump shot.

on the other hand, baby is a bench player, and a big besides. 40% on jumpers for a bench big is in fact decent. If he was a gaurd and expected to be a knock down shooter, it wouldn't be.

If he had KG's jumpshot %, he wouldn't be a bench player.

  But that's a separate issue. Whether BBD shoots well for a reserve or for a big man has no effect on whether or not he shoots a jumper more consistently than Rondo.

But it is an issue that is not very relevant to the overall topic of this thread. Which is why does/did BBD have the role he did as KG's replacement.

  True.

And that´s what I meant. I see you didn´t make the initial comparison, nick´s argument was that FG% is not a 100% reliable indicator of a player´s ability to shoot, and it appeared to me as if you drew conclusions to the thread topic. I was explaining crownsy´s line of thinking.

Anyway, I´m on a hot streak bringing CB poster to round TP numbers.
Congratulations on 200 TPs.

I got another for you Casperian...

[cordobes]

Fair enough, I must have missed the portion of the 2+ months you were referring to.  He definitely has gotten better at it, and as a result I suspect opposing teams will begin to guard it more.  I'm still hesitant to look for him as an offensive option.

I was however pleased to see Hollinger's comment because it confirmed what my friends and I have been saying and seeing this whole year.  BBD tries hard, and to someone who doesn't have a keen eye for defensive rotations, it appears he's  valuable on defense.  Yet, his true value on the court (in mine and others' eyes) is subpar and below that of others who may be sitting on the bench. 

This has mainly bugged me this season because I dread the thought of the Celtic organization committing millions to BBD when I feel he's less valuable than perceived.  If he continued to be just another young guy with the contract he has now, then I welcome his hustle.

That's called confirmation bias.

I think Powe is a better player than Davis. However, they've been playing somewhat different roles (something that Hollinger missed) and I don't think there's such a huge difference between them.

Re: the defence, and the use of the team production when they're on/off the floor, here's the problem: this season the team is worse defensively when Davis is on the floor and better when Powe is playing. However, last season things were exactly the opposite! What does this mean? Were you of the opinion that Davis was the better defender last season? What happened during the Summer, he regressed and Powe improved?

By the same stat, Duncan makes the Spurs defence worse; while Matt Bonner makes it better. Is this true? Does anyone believes in this? Yet, it's what the stat says.

The explanation is quite simple: even for a starter like Duncan the sample size is too small. For bench players like Powe and Davis is completely insignificant.

[EJPLAYA]

Fair enough, I must have missed the portion of the 2+ months you were referring to.  He definitely has gotten better at it, and as a result I suspect opposing teams will begin to guard it more.  I'm still hesitant to look for him as an offensive option.

I was however pleased to see Hollinger's comment because it confirmed what my friends and I have been saying and seeing this whole year.  BBD tries hard, and to someone who doesn't have a keen eye for defensive rotations, it appears he's  valuable on defense.  Yet, his true value on the court (in mine and others' eyes) is subpar and below that of others who may be sitting on the bench. 

This has mainly bugged me this season because I dread the thought of the Celtic organization committing millions to BBD when I feel he's less valuable than perceived.  If he continued to be just another young guy with the contract he has now, then I welcome his hustle.

That's called confirmation bias.

I think Powe is a better player than Davis. However, they've been playing somewhat different roles (something that Hollinger missed) and I don't think there's such a huge difference between them.

Re: the defence, and the use of the team production when they're on/off the floor, here's the problem: this season the team is worse defensively when Davis is on the floor and better when Powe is playing. However, last season things were exactly the opposite! What does this mean? Were you of the opinion that Davis was the better defender last season? What happened during the Summer, he regressed and Powe improved?

By the same stat, Duncan makes the Spurs defence worse; while Matt Bonner makes it better. Is this true? Does anyone believes in this? Yet, it's what the stat says.

The explanation is quite simple: even for a starter like Duncan the sample size is too small. For bench players like Powe and Davis is completely insignificant.

Lots of good points here. I think the key is watching their defensive rotations and seeing how often they are out of position. Another would be their ability to draw charges. Defensive Rebounding IMO is a huge thing to look at and is often not commented on. 1-1 man-up defense is of course a big deal. IMO here is where I lean on the two defensively:

Defensive Rebounding - Powe by a landslide
Drawing charges - Powe by a decent margin
1-1 defense - BBD by a little
Rotation - BBD by a little, however this gap is getting smaller.

I would say that anymore this is a wash. I give the rotation and 1-1 defense an edge of importance, but with Powe being close and quite a bit ahead on the other two categories I think they are a wash.

Offensively I think Powe is quite a bit better overall player due to his ability to create his own shot on the low blocks. BBD really only can shoot the open jumper which someone else needs to set him up for. Occasionally he will drive to the rim, however it is usually not effective.

Based on these things if I had to lose one of them in the offseason I would rather see BBD go. I am warming to the idea of keeping both, however I would rather pick up 2 SF's to fill that hole. We don't have the luxury of both seeing as they are going to be a pretty big jump in pay.

[nickagneta]

BBall

First off I think your original point was to just be argumentative and contrarian, as usual. My point, and I explained it quite simply so I am sure you can understand it, was that FG% was not a good indicator as to whether someone is a good outside shooter. But let me spell it out even clearer.

At a total FG% of 42% the average person could come to the conclusion that a center/power forward was a poor outside shooter because most center/power forwards shoot from close to the basket where shots are easier. The general consensus being that if Baby is taking a bunch of outside shots and has a bad overall FG% then he must be making the easy ones and missing the outside shots. So his FG% would deceive someone into thinking that Baby is now a bad outside shooter.

At a total FG% of 51% the average person could come to the conclusion that a PG who leads the league in FG% for a guard, a position where most of his work is done away from the basket, is a good to great outside shooter. The general census being that PGs and SG shoot mostly from the outside so if Rondo has a FG% of 51% he must be a good outside shooter. But he is not. He is constantly turning up wide open shots for a pass elsewhere or a drive to the basket because he has very little confidence in his shot and as anyone can clearly see hasn't been shooting it that well for most of the year.

That's the point I was trying to make.

[BballTim]

BBall

First off I think your original point was to just be argumentative and contrarian, as usual. My point, and I explained it quite simply so I am sure you can understand it, was that FG% was not a good indicator as to whether someone is a good outside shooter. But let me spell it out even clearer.

  Pretty amusing that someone who jumps into a thread and writes multiple posts disagreeing with a remark that BBD doesn't have a consistent outside shot finds me to be argumentative and contrarian when I do the exact same thing over a remark about Rondo being much more inconsistent than Davis.

  And of course I understood your point, and I didn't disagree with it at all. Davis's low fg% for the year doesn't make him a poor outside shooter and Rondo's high fg% doesn't make him a great outside shooter. That much is obvious. What I disagreed with was your claiming that Davis had a consistent outside shot and only a fool would think the same of Rondo.

  I also noticed that my arguments (which you rejected out of hand) were similar to your arguments supporting Davis. I think, in the end, you were the one who was being argumentative and contrarian. You didn't produce any evidence of the numbers that you dug up showing that Rondo was always shooting around 33%, you completely changed parts of your arguments when I showed that the numbers didn't support what you were saying, and you just resorted to attacking me (or my motives). Couldn't you have just admitted that your comparison wasn't a great one?

[Casperian]

Anyway, I´m on a hot streak bringing CB poster to round TP numbers.
Congratulations on 200 TPs.

I got another for you Casperian...

Dang, I´m too late.
Congrats on 202 TPs. 

[EJPLAYA]

Anyway, I´m on a hot streak bringing CB poster to round TP numbers.
Congratulations on 200 TPs.

I got another for you Casperian...

Dang, I´m too late.
Congrats on 202 TPs. 

I was hoping you could push it over the top and keep your streak alive. TP anyway!

[nickagneta]

BBall

First off I think your original point was to just be argumentative and contrarian, as usual. My point, and I explained it quite simply so I am sure you can understand it, was that FG% was not a good indicator as to whether someone is a good outside shooter. But let me spell it out even clearer.

  Pretty amusing that someone who jumps into a thread and writes multiple posts disagreeing with a remark that BBD doesn't have a consistent outside shot finds me to be argumentative and contrarian when I do the exact same thing over a remark about Rondo being much more inconsistent than Davis.

  And of course I understood your point, and I didn't disagree with it at all. Davis's low fg% for the year doesn't make him a poor outside shooter and Rondo's high fg% doesn't make him a great outside shooter. That much is obvious. What I disagreed with was your claiming that Davis had a consistent outside shot and only a fool would think the same of Rondo.

  I also noticed that my arguments (which you rejected out of hand) were similar to your arguments supporting Davis. I think, in the end, you were the one who was being argumentative and contrarian. You didn't produce any evidence of the numbers that you dug up showing that Rondo was always shooting around 33%, you completely changed parts of your arguments when I showed that the numbers didn't support what you were saying, and you just resorted to attacking me (or my motives). Couldn't you have just admitted that your comparison wasn't a great one?

Once again, maybe, this time I'll start typing slower so that you get this, my statement was about FG% not being indicative of the quality of one's shot. Meaning, that someone shouldn't be foolish enough to believe that Rondo is actually a 51% outside shooter. Are you the only person on this blog not getting this because not one other person has responded in favor of your comment?

As for my proof, I am ignoring the rest of what was said because it has nothing to do with my original point but if you must have it you can do the same leg work I did. Go to ESPN player page for Rondo. Then to his game log area. Then for each and every game go to the shot chart while choosing only Rondo's shot. Then keep a record of all his shots over 15ft.

You will find that Rondo missed his first 10 shots over 15 ft. But, from about game 8 through game 50 and through only those games Rondo shot almost exact 33% for all shots 15ft and over.

Now if you have anything else to comment have a ball. I think I made my point. And if I haven't then......

[BballTim]

BBall

First off I think your original point was to just be argumentative and contrarian, as usual. My point, and I explained it quite simply so I am sure you can understand it, was that FG% was not a good indicator as to whether someone is a good outside shooter. But let me spell it out even clearer.

  Pretty amusing that someone who jumps into a thread and writes multiple posts disagreeing with a remark that BBD doesn't have a consistent outside shot finds me to be argumentative and contrarian when I do the exact same thing over a remark about Rondo being much more inconsistent than Davis.

  And of course I understood your point, and I didn't disagree with it at all. Davis's low fg% for the year doesn't make him a poor outside shooter and Rondo's high fg% doesn't make him a great outside shooter. That much is obvious. What I disagreed with was your claiming that Davis had a consistent outside shot and only a fool would think the same of Rondo.

  I also noticed that my arguments (which you rejected out of hand) were similar to your arguments supporting Davis. I think, in the end, you were the one who was being argumentative and contrarian. You didn't produce any evidence of the numbers that you dug up showing that Rondo was always shooting around 33%, you completely changed parts of your arguments when I showed that the numbers didn't support what you were saying, and you just resorted to attacking me (or my motives). Couldn't you have just admitted that your comparison wasn't a great one?

Once again, maybe, this time I'll start typing slower so that you get this, my statement was about FG% not being indicative of the quality of one's shot. Meaning, that someone shouldn't be foolish enough to believe that Rondo is actually a 51% outside shooter. Are you the only person on this blog not getting this because not one other person has responded in favor of your comment?

  Gee, Nick, that whole

 "I'll start typing slower so that you get this"

 because I couldn't understand

"someone shouldn't be foolish enough to believe that Rondo is actually a 51% outside shooter"

 really cut me to the quick. Especially when you consider that my post that you quoted contained

 "And of course I understood your point, and I didn't disagree with it at all. Davis's low fg% for the year doesn't make him a poor outside shooter and Rondo's high fg% doesn't make him a great outside shooter".

 I'll try and live with the shame.

As for my proof, I am ignoring the rest of what was said because it has nothing to do with my original point but if you must have it you can do the same leg work I did. Go to ESPN player page for Rondo. Then to his game log area. Then for each and every game go to the shot chart while choosing only Rondo's shot. Then keep a record of all his shots over 15ft.

  Thanks for pointing that out. since you were using hotspot stuff and maybe (I don't recall) 82games numbers it wasn't clear where you were getting these numbers from. TP for all the legwork, though.

You will find that Rondo missed his first 10 shots over 15 ft. But, from about game 8 through game 50 and through only those games Rondo shot almost exact 33% for all shots 15ft and over.

  For starters, I'll make the obvious comment that if Rondo was 0-10 at some point then he was at or below 10% at some point as I said. Moving on, I went through the games from game 8 to the end of November and looked at his shots that were outside the paint (most of them were probably 15 feet or more, but it's not an exact chart). I saw running totals like 2-18 and 3-21 and he finished the month around 6-34, which is about 18%. He made 3 -pointers in November so his efg% was about 22%. This seemed to carry over to early January if you believe the post I found that his efg% was just over 25% at the time.

  As I've been stating, since his efg% was in the low-mid 20s in December (if not later) and he's currently at .357 (from 82games) it's obvious that he's been shooting at a rate that's higher than is current 36% for a while in order to raise his total rate from the mid 20s to the mid 30s.

Now if you have anything else to comment have a ball. I think I made my point. And if I haven't then......

  Yes, Nick, you made your point. fg% does not show whether someone is a good outside shooter or not. Coincidentally, I also made my point. Davis is no more accurate or consistent an outside shooter than Rondo. Looks like we're both happy.

  ps: i didn't type slowly in my response, but I tried to keep the math simple.

[nickagneta]

BBall

First off I think your original point was to just be argumentative and contrarian, as usual. My point, and I explained it quite simply so I am sure you can understand it, was that FG% was not a good indicator as to whether someone is a good outside shooter. But let me spell it out even clearer.

  Pretty amusing that someone who jumps into a thread and writes multiple posts disagreeing with a remark that BBD doesn't have a consistent outside shot finds me to be argumentative and contrarian when I do the exact same thing over a remark about Rondo being much more inconsistent than Davis.

  And of course I understood your point, and I didn't disagree with it at all. Davis's low fg% for the year doesn't make him a poor outside shooter and Rondo's high fg% doesn't make him a great outside shooter. That much is obvious. What I disagreed with was your claiming that Davis had a consistent outside shot and only a fool would think the same of Rondo.

  I also noticed that my arguments (which you rejected out of hand) were similar to your arguments supporting Davis. I think, in the end, you were the one who was being argumentative and contrarian. You didn't produce any evidence of the numbers that you dug up showing that Rondo was always shooting around 33%, you completely changed parts of your arguments when I showed that the numbers didn't support what you were saying, and you just resorted to attacking me (or my motives). Couldn't you have just admitted that your comparison wasn't a great one?

Once again, maybe, this time I'll start typing slower so that you get this, my statement was about FG% not being indicative of the quality of one's shot. Meaning, that someone shouldn't be foolish enough to believe that Rondo is actually a 51% outside shooter. Are you the only person on this blog not getting this because not one other person has responded in favor of your comment?

  Gee, Nick, that whole

 "I'll start typing slower so that you get this"

 because I couldn't understand

"someone shouldn't be foolish enough to believe that Rondo is actually a 51% outside shooter"

 really cut me to the quick. Especially when you consider that my post that you quoted contained

 "And of course I understood your point, and I didn't disagree with it at all. Davis's low fg% for the year doesn't make him a poor outside shooter and Rondo's high fg% doesn't make him a great outside shooter".

 I'll try and live with the shame.

As for my proof, I am ignoring the rest of what was said because it has nothing to do with my original point but if you must have it you can do the same leg work I did. Go to ESPN player page for Rondo. Then to his game log area. Then for each and every game go to the shot chart while choosing only Rondo's shot. Then keep a record of all his shots over 15ft.

  Thanks for pointing that out. since you were using hotspot stuff and maybe (I don't recall) 82games numbers it wasn't clear where you were getting these numbers from. TP for all the legwork, though.

You will find that Rondo missed his first 10 shots over 15 ft. But, from about game 8 through game 50 and through only those games Rondo shot almost exact 33% for all shots 15ft and over.

  For starters, I'll make the obvious comment that if Rondo was 0-10 at some point then he was at or below 10% at some point as I said. Moving on, I went through the games from game 8 to the end of November and looked at his shots that were outside the paint (most of them were probably 15 feet or more, but it's not an exact chart). I saw running totals like 2-18 and 3-21 and he finished the month around 6-34, which is about 18%. He made 3 -pointers in November so his efg% was about 22%. This seemed to carry over to early January if you believe the post I found that his efg% was just over 25% at the time.

  As I've been stating, since his efg% was in the low-mid 20s in December (if not later) and he's currently at .357 (from 82games) it's obvious that he's been shooting at a rate that's higher than is current 36% for a while in order to raise his total rate from the mid 20s to the mid 30s.

Now if you have anything else to comment have a ball. I think I made my point. And if I haven't then......

  Yes, Nick, you made your point. fg% does not show whether someone is a good outside shooter or not. Coincidentally, I also made my point. Davis is no more accurate or consistent an outside shooter than Rondo. Looks like we're both happy.

  ps: i didn't type slowly in my response, but I tried to keep the math simple.

LOL. TP back to you. Good debate in good fun.

This is a little off subject but since I know you looked at the numbers, does there seem to be a fairly large discrepency between the Hot Spots seasonal chart for Rondo's numbers and what 82games.com is posting. My quick math was that anything outside of the box under the basket in Hot Spots came up to about, and I didn't use a calculator, 30% jumpshots. 82games.com has Rondo at 43% jumpshots.

Do you think 82games.com is really counting floaters and other close shots(within 6 feet or so, as jump shots? If they are they are really doing an injustice to players who take shots inside of 6 feet and calling those jump shots.