ESPN article says Powe > Davis, and its a mystery why he starts..

[Fafnir]

Basically, I think that's Davis' midrange shot is why he starts right now.

Exactly, that and Davis is the better defender.  Davis was playing pretty good ball last night as well.  He did have 10 pts in the 16 minutes that he played and did a better job on the defensive side in his minutes then Powe did. 

Powe played great on D, especially liked how he was helping when Lebron made his drives to the paint.

The trap he made was nice too. Too bad he went for the steal, should have just held his arms straight up.

[Amonkey]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=hollingerceltics-090307

Even when Boston's physical play went too far -- like when Davis was ejected for a flagrant foul on Anderson Varejao early in the third quarter -- it worked out OK. Davis' ouster proved to be a blessing in disguise, as Powe came in and raised Boston's interior domination to another level. Truth be told, Powe has been the more effective player all season, and it's been something of a mystery that Davis, not Powe, has been the one to see more court time in Garnett's absence

Sorry, i fail at links if it doesnt work.

But i find it shocking and couldnt disagree more.  I love both guys, and having them both gives us options.  But i really think Davis has seperated himself as the player who has improved and is really playing better.

His defense is better.  His jumper is getting more consistant.  I can see him gaining confidence and in a year, his jumper will be money.  The great thing is he's not afraid of taking it now.  He has obviously toned up and trimmed down.

Am i in the minority here? Or is hollinger just making bad assumptions?

I think that is a classic case of an ESPN analyst watching one game and making an opinion based on that.  I like Powe, and he played great as of late.  Lately, he's been getting some real hard rebounds with guts, determination and courage.  However, for most of the season Powe hasn't really been the Powe that of last playoffs season and I don't think he had outplayed Baby.  He was being overaggressive on the offensive, looking for contact instead of putting the ball in the loop.  Maybe this argument can be made now that Powe has stepped up his game, even though Big Baby has stepped up to.  But not before.

PS. BBD was playing great when he was on too, scoring 10 points in 16 minutes.

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

Thanks for the link to the article.  This will quickly become a Powe vs. Davis thread, which has been hashed and rehashed time and time again.  My feeling is that both have improved over time, and I am happy both play for the Cs.  I think both are good backups in this league, but neither are starters.  With KG out, I like Davis starting, because he can sometimes get going with his mid-range jumper, while Perk stays underneath.

Well said Cman! I completely agree. Leon is a lion, but he doesn't have the option of going to a mid-range jumper. He's purely a banger, which I absolutely love. He takes such high % shots but at the same time the defense can help off of him when he's not around the basket thus not keeping them as honest vs. Big Baby.

[Fafnir]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=hollingerceltics-090307

Even when Boston's physical play went too far -- like when Davis was ejected for a flagrant foul on Anderson Varejao early in the third quarter -- it worked out OK. Davis' ouster proved to be a blessing in disguise, as Powe came in and raised Boston's interior domination to another level. Truth be told, Powe has been the more effective player all season, and it's been something of a mystery that Davis, not Powe, has been the one to see more court time in Garnett's absence

Sorry, i fail at links if it doesnt work.

But i find it shocking and couldnt disagree more.  I love both guys, and having them both gives us options.  But i really think Davis has seperated himself as the player who has improved and is really playing better.

His defense is better.  His jumper is getting more consistant.  I can see him gaining confidence and in a year, his jumper will be money.  The great thing is he's not afraid of taking it now.  He has obviously toned up and trimmed down.

Am i in the minority here? Or is hollinger just making bad assumptions?

I think that is a classic case of an ESPN analyst watching one game and making an opinion based on that.

This isn't true. Hollinger loves Leon Powe and always has. His PER stat has BBD as one of the worst in the league, meanwhile Powe has a solid rating.

[Fan from VT]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=hollingerceltics-090307

Even when Boston's physical play went too far -- like when Davis was ejected for a flagrant foul on Anderson Varejao early in the third quarter -- it worked out OK. Davis' ouster proved to be a blessing in disguise, as Powe came in and raised Boston's interior domination to another level. Truth be told, Powe has been the more effective player all season, and it's been something of a mystery that Davis, not Powe, has been the one to see more court time in Garnett's absence

Sorry, i fail at links if it doesnt work.

But i find it shocking and couldnt disagree more.  I love both guys, and having them both gives us options.  But i really think Davis has seperated himself as the player who has improved and is really playing better.

His defense is better.  His jumper is getting more consistant.  I can see him gaining confidence and in a year, his jumper will be money.  The great thing is he's not afraid of taking it now.  He has obviously toned up and trimmed down.

Am i in the minority here? Or is hollinger just making bad assumptions?

I think that is a classic case of an ESPN analyst watching one game and making an opinion based on that.  I like Powe, and he played great as of late.  Lately, he's been getting some real hard rebounds with guts, determination and courage.  However, for most of the season Powe hasn't really been the Powe that of last playoffs season and I don't think he had outplayed Baby.  He was being overaggressive on the offensive, looking for contact instead of putting the ball in the loop.  Maybe this argument can be made now that Powe has stepped up his game, even though Big Baby has stepped up to.  But not before.

PS. BBD was playing great when he was on too, scoring 10 points in 16 minutes.

Yeahm, hollinger watches a lot of  basketball, and he's scouted and written about powe quite a few times over the past few years. What's amazing is that last year, the two players were not even close. This year, even with Powe underperforming and Davis improving, powe has still been a much better scorer and rebounder. For some reason, a lot of people convinced themselves that the two were even players last year, so if Davis has improved, and powe has possibly regressed, Davis must be better, right? The fact that Powe is still better than Davis just shows how big the gap was between them last season.

I think that Hollinger's article is a case of an objective outsider not getting swayed by the younger, more unique, and more personable player and actually looking at what they do on the court. If you stop handicapping Davis because he is so unique in his style and his demeanor, I think it's clear that Powe contributes more of what this team needs.

[Chris]

Its simple, Davis fits in much better with the starters because of his defense, passing, and mid range shooting.  It is similar reasons that Scal was starting before he got injured. 

Hollinger takes his love of the numbers too far sometimes, and fails to actually look at the real basketball reasons. 

I am fine with him saying the Powe is better than Davis (although I think it is closer than the numbers show), but when you are looking at how players are used, there is much more to it than who's better.  Especially when you are talking about players like Powe and Davis, who both still have holes in their games.

[nickagneta]

I happen to think they are both very good, just different and better at different things. Most people's preferences are probably based atleast a little bit on what they expect out of a player that plays the PF position. I like both and hope they both return because I think they give Doc lots of options depending on who Doc has available to play with them.

As for Hollinger he has some skills at evaluting basketball talent, but they are as rudimentary as the average basketball fan. Most of his opinions are based entirely upon his statistical metrics that he employees. Since Baby rates much lower than Powe in those metrics, he likes Powe better.

But what he doesn't take into effect is defense, basketball smarts, and the peripherals that stats can't explain. Like, for instance, Baby's horrible FG% that sets him far back in Hollinger's stats. Not taken into consideration is the Celtics' front office and coaching staff insisting on Baby taking an 18 foot shot when available and to continue to take it in the flow of the offense, at will, to eventually develop a new weapon. Well, Davis did that and it took three months of absolutely awful shooting for him to get the shot to drop at an above average rate. His stas obviously were effected by this.

Also, due to their very different body types, Leon has been playing in position all year(against PFs) while Davis has been playing out of position, against much larger players, all season. If Powe was being asked to guard the centers every night and Davis the PFs, back before KG's injury, would Powe's and Davis' stats look a bit different? I think it is definitely a possibility.

So before putting to much credence in Hollinger's article and opinion, know from where he bases his opinions and how he comes by them. With him at least, it's very important to remember.

[Casperian]

Yeahm, hollinger watches a lot of  basketball, and he's scouted and written about powe quite a few times over the past few years. What's amazing is that last year, the two players were not even close. This year, even with Powe underperforming and Davis improving, powe has still been a much better scorer and rebounder. For some reason, a lot of people convinced themselves that the two were even players last year, so if Davis has improved, and powe has possibly regressed, Davis must be better, right? The fact that Powe is still better than Davis just shows how big the gap was between them last season.

BBD was a Rookie last year, and I don`t think that Leon was the better player this season, I think Baby was better.

------------

In general, I have to say that the Baby hate among Celtic fans is unbelievable, imo, although it became better in the last weeks. Baby hustles just as much as Leon, he`s humble and worked his way up just as Leon did. I think people assume he`s lazy and not determined because he`s chubby. I love to have them both, and see no use in a Powe vs Davis debate at all. I want them to play with each other, not against each other, and I wish we fans wouldn`t always take an either/or stance on this topic.

There are ~50 Powe vs Davis threads on this board, and not even one about how they complement each other. We are the ones who create and feed this media circus, there`s no real controversy...they both wear green.

[KungPoweChicken]

Powe is a complete black hole on offense. When baby is on the court he is more versatile, more intelligent, and more aware. Plus, he can hit a jump short once in a while. Baby's style of play blends in better with the first unit than Powe's would.

[Bankshot]

Yeahm, hollinger watches a lot of  basketball, and he's scouted and written about powe quite a few times over the past few years. What's amazing is that last year, the two players were not even close. This year, even with Powe underperforming and Davis improving, powe has still been a much better scorer and rebounder. For some reason, a lot of people convinced themselves that the two were even players last year, so if Davis has improved, and powe has possibly regressed, Davis must be better, right? The fact that Powe is still better than Davis just shows how big the gap was between them last season.

BBD was a Rookie last year, and I don`t think that Leon was the better player this season, I think Baby was better.

------------

In general, I have to say that the Baby hate among Celtic fans is unbelievable, imo, although it became better in the last weeks. Baby hustles just as much as Leon, he`s humble and worked his way up just as Leon did. I think people assume he`s lazy and not determined because he`s chubby. I love to have them both, and see no use in a Powe vs Davis debate at all. I want them to play with each other, not against each other, and I wish we fans wouldn`t always take an either/or stance on this topic.

There are ~50 Powe vs Davis threads on this board, and not even one about how they complement each other. We are the ones who create and feed this media circus, there`s no real controversy...they both wear green.

Good post.

[cornbreadsmart]

hollinger wants his brain implanted into a calculator.man, i hate his articles.

[NoraG1]

Didn't ESPN think Lakers were going to win it all last year? Whatever they say, do the opposite and you will be successful. LOL

[Roy Hobbs]

Its simple, Davis fits in much better with the starters because of his defense, passing, and mid range shooting.  It is similar reasons that Scal was starting before he got injured. 

Hollinger takes his love of the numbers too far sometimes, and fails to actually look at the real basketball reasons. 

I am fine with him saying the Powe is better than Davis (although I think it is closer than the numbers show), but when you are looking at how players are used, there is much more to it than who's better.  Especially when you are talking about players like Powe and Davis, who both still have holes in their games.

Is that true, though?  I hear what you're saying, but overall, the team has played pretty poorly with BBD as a starter.  Yes, the team has a winning record (5-2), but the team has looked poor in several of those wins, especially on defense (New Jersey, Indiana, Philly, etc.)  None of those were "easy" wins, unlike what you see when Scal fills in for KG a lot of times.

Of the five player combinations the Celts have played over 100 minutes, the one where BBD plays in place of KG has been by far the worst.  In fact, defensively, it's tied for our worst lineup overall, and it's tied for our fourth worst offensive unit.  Opposing teams outscore that player combination 66.7% of the time it's on the floor.  http://www.82games.com/0809/0809BOS2.HTM

Objectively, I can't look at numbers like those and say BBD is a good fit.  I know many people like to ignore stats, claiming they don't accurate depict what's going on in the floor.  However, at some point, don't the statistics shed some light on things?

On the other hand, in limited minutes, the combination of Powe with the starters has yielded a more efficient offensive team than our normal starters, with only a slight dip in defense.  It's a limited sample size, but it's statistics like that that make guys like Hollinger notice that something isn't working like it should on paper.  Maybe the stats truly are wrong, or maybe the team has other reasons for playing BBD.  However, it's clear, at least, why Hollinger thinks Powe is a better fit.

In terms of who is a better player, I agree with the statement above that the two play different positions right now, and shouldn't be evaluated as rivals.  However, statistically, Powe has definitely been the better performer.  Offensively, Powe has been much better, and defensively, statistics suggest that Powe is a lot closer to BBD than many give credit for.  That being said, I think BBD has looked great over the past couple months, and I'm glad they're both here.  I'd like them both to get minutes over Mikki Moore in the playoffs, since both BBD and Powe are better overall players.

[TatteredOnMySleeve]

ESPN'S usually wrong

Its not a mystery, its pretty simple actually, Glen Davis spreads the floor better, and leon powe is better off the bench then he is starting

[Brickowski]

This stuff is silly, really.  The fact is that Hollinger doesn't watch the Celtics.  He just tries to make inferences from the numbers.

BBD gives you an extra passer and ballhandler on the floor.  That's why he starts.  
Powe is a great low post scorer, and when he's single covered by mediocre post defenders (e.g. Joe Smith), he starts to look like an all star.  But Powe is also something of a black hole.  He does not facilitate offense for other players.  Davis does.

So if you want to argue that an apple is better than an orange, be my guest.