Powe or Davis?

[Greg]

I think some people have it all wrong.  They say Big Baby is slow, unathletic, etc etc.

But he really isn't.  He is very nimble on his feet, his is always giving 100%.  He actually is fast, drives his feet really well.

And the fact that he is nimble, fast, quick laterally, and is willing to give up his body is what makes him unique, of course considering his size.

This unique combination of size and agility allow him to play the pick and roll well, defend on the outside (very good help defense) etc etc.

Of course, Leon Powe is at the maximum physical condition, but lets give Big Baby credit where it is deserved.

As to answer the question Powe or Davis, it is hard to say, but I'd go with BBD, as I've always said.  Powe uses his body down low very well to create contact and knock down shots.  He is a very hard worker and is an improving defender.  He is a very good offensive rebounder, but can hold on to the ball to long in the post and is an ineffective passer.

Still, Davis has a quickly improving outside shot.  He can also hit the lane with that spin move and finish.  As we saw at the end of last season, he can back down and score in the post.  He uses his body well to create space.  For his size, he is a very good passer.  He sets good picks and rolls off them nicely to set himself up for jumpshots.  Has always been great at boxing out and has been always been a great offensive rebounder.  But recently, he has shown a lot of improvement as a defensive rebounder.

Bottom Line:  While both players are relatively close in skill, BBD has been outplaying Powe lately.  The thing that I like about Powe is that he knows he role.  While BBD sometimes tries to do too much, I think his game allows him to have a higher ceiling.  Still, I say Powe has higher trade value still, so trading him off for another big man or a draft pick may help out a lot.

[Chris]

Honestly, the more I watch, the more I want to keep them both.  I think they compliment each other very well, and if the C's can add in a long big man, they could have a very strong 5 man big rotation. 

Obviously, it all comes down to cost, but if they are both looking at small contracts (which looks like the case at the moment), I would try to keep both of them.

but who would you pick if you had to choose only 1??

Powe has disappointed me lately with forcing his shots on offesne. He doesn't know when to pass either

10 more pounds less and i know that big baby will be one heck of a bench player if he is not starting to become one

It's impossible to answer without knowing the asking price, and who else they are bringing in. 

Right now, Davis is the more well-rounded player, and a superior defender, so if you are going to get rid of him, you better be bringing in a sound, defensive big man. 

Powe on the other hand is more explosive, and has more potential. 

But if they are both getting 2-3 million per year, you can probably keep both of them, so I don't see any reason to choose.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Fat men CAN jump, plus an appearance from Bill Miller (that guy is SO cool):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOjQjD1c9GU

[Brickowski]

Powe is a better scorer right now, but BBD is a better passer and has more upside.

To win now, I'd take Powe.  To build for the future, I'd take BBD. Powe is what he is.  BBD can be more than he is right now.  For example, if BBD learns how to upfake, he can double his offensive production in a very short time.  If Don Nelson gets fired, they should bring him in to tutor BBD.

[amenhotep04]

Both players have good days and bad days. Bottom line for me is that I think right now Walker can take the place of one of them.  But either Powe or Davis, plus another player or two needs to net us a center or a four that has length.

[crownsy]

Both players have good days and bad days. Bottom line for me is that I think right now Walker can take the place of one of them.  But either Powe or Davis, plus another player or two needs to net us a center or a four that has length.

bill walker can not play the 4 or the 5 consistantly. you think were undersized now? plus i think scal has shown he deserves minutes at the 4, so there's that as well.

What bill can do is hopefully take some of pauls backup minutes away from TA by season's end.

[nickagneta]

Until we can get a real backup big man with height, length, and experience we need both of them desperately.

[ToppersBsktball10]

1 in the game you can change kg's age to whatever u want if its ps3
2 id take powe takes charges rebounds and can score

[wdleehi]

The choice comes down to Davis. 

If he ever get serious and gets in shape, he is the choice. 

If doesn't, Powe is the choice.

[Chris]

The choice comes down to Davis. 

If he ever get serious and gets in shape, he is the choice. 

If doesn't, Powe is the choice.

I hate this "in shape" thing.  Yeah, he is heavy, but he also is clearly in excellent condition, based on the fact that he is able to go full speed without getting tired for a long period of time. 

He could lose some weight, but I am not confident that is in his best interest...at least not the way the C's are using him.  Down the road, if they want to have him play permanently as a PF, then dropping some weight might be good, but right now, I think his weight is one of his strengths...especially considering he has been able to maintain his quick feet.

[amenhotep04]

Both players have good days and bad days. Bottom line for me is that I think right now Walker can take the place of one of them.  But either Powe or Davis, plus another player or two needs to net us a center or a four that has length.

bill walker can not play the 4 or the 5 consistantly. you think were undersized now? plus i think scal has shown he deserves minutes at the 4, so there's that as well.

What bill can do is hopefully take some of pauls backup minutes away from TA by season's end.

My bad for not explaining more clearly. I wasn't suggesting that Walker would replace either Powe or Davis.  What I was suggesting was that he could give the team what they get from either of those two (rebounds, toughness), and allow for a trade to get a big, which would allow for someone to play the five, either Powe or Davis to play the four, and then Walker to play a strong three on the second team.

I was thinking trade of either Powe or Davis with another or some other players to net another big.  So we would not be smaller after the trade. We'd be bigger and more athletic.

[Who]

I don't see potential in Glen Davis if he doesn't drop the weight. He'll remain what he is and that's a fourth big man in a rotation. Where's the improvement going to come from?

Davis is already a very good defensive player, his size limits his upside to improve there. Davis is a poor scorer, and since he'll be both slower+smaller+lacks jumping ability he'll likely continue to struggle in creating his own offense. The amount of increased pressure those physical issues, it'll make him need to improve his offensive game to a far greater height than one would ordinarily need to. He can improve his jumper and get that to a good place, but that's not going to make him jump up the depth charts unless he becomes a great jump shooter instead of a good one. His rebounding is below par, now if he can improve that he would jump up the depth charts.

But more importantly, if he can improve with the type of body he has today, where has that improvement been over the first 20 months of his NBA career?

I think Glen Davis has good potential if he drops the weight and transforms his game.

The player I'd love to see Davis try to emulate is David West. Another player who has an impressive BBIQ, a multitude of skills, and a guy who took a long road to improving his game and made improvements each year for about 5-6 seasons before becoming the player he is today. He's also got the type of body at power forward that I'd like to see Davis have.

I think Davis' natural agility/quickness could become very good weapons for him if he lost a lot of weight. I think he'd still retain his strength, and more importantly his willingness to play physical, and be a tough matchup problem for most power forwards in the league. I think it'll open up his offensive game for him.

Meanwhile, Leon Powe is already a very efficient and prolific complementary scorer. He's improved his post game consistently over the past 18 months. Powe is also a very good rebounder and a good defensive player. He's a very good role player who impacts the game in the three major areas in each night (offense/defense/rebounding), which Davis does not do (only defense consistently).

I think Leon Powe is already a very good backup power forward and I think he's got a fairly good shot at becoming a starter in this league. Right now, more than anything else, he just needs an opportunity to play more minutes and show how good his game is.

[Roy Hobbs]

BBD has good potential if he loses the weight. Don't see much upside there otherwise.

Powe has more ability and upside if BBD doesn't lose the weight.

What's Powe's upside?  BBD's upside is a guy who can stick the jumper, rebound, play very good defense and be versatile enough to play backup center.  I don't see Powe's potential beyond being a good low post scorer, because he hasn't shown anything else.

Any reason you're listing rebounding as a skill for BBD and not for Powe, despite Powe outrebounding him?  Powe outrebounds his opponents consistently (+2.2/48 minutes), while BBD gets outrebounded by his (-1.6/48 minutes).

That's one of the crappiest stats I've ever seen. Though Powe being a good rebounder is true, but judging a good rebounder based on outrebounding their counterpart opponent is complete crap, especially when you consider that the bulk of Davis opponents are centers.

BBD gets outrebounded by Powe, and consistently loses rebounding matchups to his opponents.  Powe has grabbed a higher percentage of available rebounds than Davis, both on offense and defense.  Whatever statistical metric you want to look at -- as well as observation -- Powe is clearly a better rebounder than BBD.

Also, why is considering whether a player *consistently* gets outrebounded by his opponent "complete crap" in evaluating a good rebounder?  Isn't part of rebounding keeping the man you're guarding off the boards?  It would be more helpful, of course, if the stat was broken out into offensive and defensive rebounds, but since the Celtics generally shoot a higher percentage than their opponent, the stat (if skewed) should be in BBD's favor, not against him.

[BudweiserCeltic]

BBD has good potential if he loses the weight. Don't see much upside there otherwise.

Powe has more ability and upside if BBD doesn't lose the weight.

What's Powe's upside?  BBD's upside is a guy who can stick the jumper, rebound, play very good defense and be versatile enough to play backup center.  I don't see Powe's potential beyond being a good low post scorer, because he hasn't shown anything else.

Any reason you're listing rebounding as a skill for BBD and not for Powe, despite Powe outrebounding him?  Powe outrebounds his opponents consistently (+2.2/48 minutes), while BBD gets outrebounded by his (-1.6/48 minutes).

That's one of the crappiest stats I've ever seen. Though Powe being a good rebounder is true, but judging a good rebounder based on outrebounding their counterpart opponent is complete crap, especially when you consider that the bulk of Davis opponents are centers.

BBD gets outrebounded by Powe, and consistently loses rebounding matchups to his opponents.  Powe has grabbed a higher percentage of available rebounds than Davis, both on offense and defense.  Whatever statistical metric you want to look at -- as well as observation -- Powe is clearly a better rebounder than BBD.

Also, why is considering whether a player *consistently* gets outrebounded by his opponent "complete crap" in evaluating a good rebounder?  Isn't part of rebounding keeping the man you're guarding off the boards?  It would be more helpful, of course, if the stat was broken out into offensive and defensive rebounds, but since the Celtics generally shoot a higher percentage than their opponent, the stat (if skewed) should be in BBD's favor, not against him.

And I wasn't disputing that Powe is a better rebounder, I believe he is, but I question the motive behind using such a flawed stat when it really paints Davis in a bad light as far as rebounding goes.

The reason I think it's complete crap is because it lacks consideration for many factors. The stat, as currently presented, is akin to me saying that you're faster than me because you've beaten your opponent in all the sprints while I have lost to mine. But what gets lost is that you're running against the little girl in the corner of your block, while I'm running against Carl Lewis. You're holding against Davis the fact that he's rebounding against the likes of Howard and Battie, while applauding Powe for outrebounding Rashard Lewis (if that's the case at all, and I'm aware that this is simply a minute sample).

Plus those stats try to present rebounding as if it were a one on one matchup, when it isn't. You're trying to grab the rebound against 5 opponents and 4 other players from your team. A rebound for your team is a net positive for you because usually it's the whole team boxing out, etc. that works together to grab the rebound. So wether or not Davis is the one that actually grabs the rebound should be incosequential. It's also true that there are numerous times in which Davis doesn't grab the rebound but he's the one the made the effort to keep the ball alive, my observation tells me that with Powe he's a better rebound grabber with his long hands.

I also doubt the stat tracks the person you're actually rebounding against on the floor. If there was a switch, and Powe ends up guarding and rebounding "against" Howard and Howard grabs the rebound I'm pretty sure it'll count against Davis. It works both ways, but for those types of reasons the stat is pure crap because the data gathered is crap. The most important aspect of any stats is the sample. How it was gathered and the sample size, if those are flawed the stat is flawed just like any conclusion drawn in an argument with false premises.

You want to make the case for Powe being a good rebounder? Go ahead, but use relevant stats as it pertains Powe instead of bringing these types of comparisons with faulty data and information. I agreed with your assesment and support you calling the poster out for ommiting Powe's rebounding skill, I just really disagree on how you went about it.

[wdleehi]

The choice comes down to Davis. 

If he ever get serious and gets in shape, he is the choice. 

If doesn't, Powe is the choice.

I hate this "in shape" thing.  Yeah, he is heavy, but he also is clearly in excellent condition, based on the fact that he is able to go full speed without getting tired for a long period of time. 

He could lose some weight, but I am not confident that is in his best interest...at least not the way the C's are using him.  Down the road, if they want to have him play permanently as a PF, then dropping some weight might be good, but right now, I think his weight is one of his strengths...especially considering he has been able to maintain his quick feet.

Oliver Miller did good things early in his career as well without working on his overall physical shape.  He ended up washing out.

Same with Kevin Duckworth.


It more then just how he is playing on the court now.  It is about his long term commitment to the game as it relates to the Celtics long term commitment to him.