Author Topic: Powe or Davis?  (Read 44969 times)

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Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #165 on: January 23, 2009, 01:25:11 AM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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I couldn't come up with a better comparison.  Most of the other pfs coming off the bench (like Landry and Hayes in Houston, Craig Smith, Paul Millsap, etc. etc.) have jump shots.

USING a jumper shot and HAVING one are different things...only Smith plays well in the post-up offensively, all of these guys have relied on their jumpers or off-ball movement in their offensive games.

I'd say Powe's pure post game is superior to this group, which has influenced how he's used...other than Landry, none of these guys take a great deal of their offensive posessions using the jumper anyways -- Millsap is expanding his game, but still scores a majority of his baskets off movement...

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #166 on: January 23, 2009, 01:32:59 AM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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Final note...Powe shot the ball much more effectively last season than Davis and their is plenty of video showing that he can indeed shoot - but he is better at posting up, something that Davis cannot do as effectively.

Eventually Powe will be at a point where it is useful to have him use his face-up game as well as his post game. But its not to a point where its worth giving Powe exclusivity over the role.

Glen Davis has an equal to lesser jumper, but his lack of post effectiveness and their usage together defines what their focus is on...why do you think there are always comments about Davis "staying in his role" when he starts doing crazy free-lance stuff on offense?

They want Davis to shoot and Powe to attack...the fact that Davis has been in a better groove offensively over the past 2 weeks isn't going to change my entire stance on the two based off their current bodies of work.

Powe has to do his end and adjust and improve his game as well, but this is the type of thing that competition decides...if Powe can't win back his minutes and be more statistically effective i'll be suprised and disappointed...

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #167 on: January 23, 2009, 04:06:40 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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ermm dude, whats up with the quadruple posting?

with that said i think powe didnt have enough opportunities this game, because he didnt play that bad.

but powe, pls pass the darn ball!

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #168 on: January 23, 2009, 07:03:03 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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It's Powe's limited passing skills that get him into trouble.  When a player can see the floor and pass (like BBD), there are five offensive threats on the floor at that moment.  Harder to defend.

Powe just gets the ball every time and tries to put his defender into the "popcorn popper," as Cedric Maxwell would say.  That's fine, but it limits the option on that possession to one.

And defensively, Davis has the bulk and quick feet to guard post players.  Powe has good feet too, but he just isn't big enough.

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #169 on: January 23, 2009, 08:03:30 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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Final note...Powe shot the ball much more effectively last season than Davis and their is plenty of video showing that he can indeed shoot - but he is better at posting up, something that Davis cannot do as effectively.

Eventually Powe will be at a point where it is useful to have him use his face-up game as well as his post game. But its not to a point where its worth giving Powe exclusivity over the role.

Glen Davis has an equal to lesser jumper, but his lack of post effectiveness and their usage together defines what their focus is on...why do you think there are always comments about Davis "staying in his role" when he starts doing crazy free-lance stuff on offense?

They want Davis to shoot and Powe to attack...the fact that Davis has been in a better groove offensively over the past 2 weeks isn't going to change my entire stance on the two based off their current bodies of work.

Powe has to do his end and adjust and improve his game as well, but this is the type of thing that competition decides...if Powe can't win back his minutes and be more statistically effective i'll be suprised and disappointed...

Powe is a better low post player and a good rebounder, but there are 3 things he doesn't have that BBD does that makes BBD more valuable to this team, imo:  passing, defense and a jumpshot.  Maybe Powe can improve on these things, but BBD is already improving his game beyond Powe's in only his second year.  Heck, BBD challenged Powe for minutes as a rookie, and it's not easy to challenge for minutes as a rookie on a championship team.  I just don't see that Powe has improved his game at all, while BBD is steadily improving his. 

Edge: BBD

"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #170 on: January 23, 2009, 08:17:00 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Final note...Powe shot the ball much more effectively last season than Davis and their is plenty of video showing that he can indeed shoot - but he is better at posting up, something that Davis cannot do as effectively.

Eventually Powe will be at a point where it is useful to have him use his face-up game as well as his post game. But its not to a point where its worth giving Powe exclusivity over the role.

Glen Davis has an equal to lesser jumper, but his lack of post effectiveness and their usage together defines what their focus is on...why do you think there are always comments about Davis "staying in his role" when he starts doing crazy free-lance stuff on offense?

They want Davis to shoot and Powe to attack...the fact that Davis has been in a better groove offensively over the past 2 weeks isn't going to change my entire stance on the two based off their current bodies of work.

Powe has to do his end and adjust and improve his game as well, but this is the type of thing that competition decides...if Powe can't win back his minutes and be more statistically effective i'll be suprised and disappointed...

Powe is a better low post player and a good rebounder, but there are 3 things he doesn't have that BBD does that makes BBD more valuable to this team, imo:  passing, defense and a jumpshot.  Maybe Powe can improve on these things, but BBD is already improving his game beyond Powe's in only his second year.  Heck, BBD challenged Powe for minutes as a rookie, and it's not easy to challenge for minutes as a rookie on a championship team.  I just don't see that Powe has improved his game at all, while BBD is steadily improving his. 

Edge: BBD


I'm confident Powe could take the same jumpers they have Davis take. The coaches don't want him too though, he's the designated post player off the bench, so that is a fair criticism.

I do agree that Powe is less likely to improve than Davis, he's older and been in the league longer. I think both of their ceilings are roughly the same though. Backup big men through and through. Pretty good for second round picks!

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #171 on: January 23, 2009, 08:25:42 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Baby might not be the best post post up, down low player, but he is introducing that high arcing baby hook and it has looked really good and been extremely effective. The time he took it in the second half and tear dropped it over a high jumping and stretching Dwight Howard might have been hi prettiest shot of the night.

Baby makes that shot a part of his arsenal that he can use down low against bigger competition and suddenly he's giving you and inside and outside game with plus passing skills that Powe hasn't demonstrated he has yet.

I hope Baby continues with his development of both his inside and outside shooting but I desperately want Leon to return to his form of earlier this year and most of last. The combination of the two playing that well would make this a very dangerous team when couple with Eddie's shooting and Pruitt's PG and defensive skills coming off the bench.

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #172 on: January 23, 2009, 08:43:19 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Powe needs to pass better. Even the Celtics know he's not going to throw the ball out to them once he's in post position. A few wrap around passes, skip passes, or just kick outs for a jump shot would make things easier for the team.

Unfortunately I'm not sure if he'll be able to start doing that without having too many dumb turnovers.

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #173 on: January 23, 2009, 08:44:16 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Baby might not be the best post post up, down low player, but he is introducing that high arcing baby hook and it has looked really good and been extremely effective. The time he took it in the second half and tear dropped it over a high jumping and stretching Dwight Howard might have been hi prettiest shot of the night.

Baby makes that shot a part of his arsenal that he can use down low against bigger competition and suddenly he's giving you and inside and outside game with plus passing skills that Powe hasn't demonstrated he has yet.

I hope Baby continues with his development of both his inside and outside shooting but I desperately want Leon to return to his form of earlier this year and most of last. The combination of the two playing that well would make this a very dangerous team when couple with Eddie's shooting and Pruitt's PG and defensive skills coming off the bench.
I missed that shot last night. Yeah a hook that he uses his weight to create space for would probably be his best shot down low.

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #174 on: January 23, 2009, 09:13:26 AM »

Offline Brendan

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He's very comparable to Paul Millsap before this year's injuries boosted Millsap into tons of PT and possessions...he is on a similar trajectory to Udonis Haslem as far as rate of development, so I really don't concern myself with the ups and downs of his first 2 years of consistent PT.

I respect a lot of posters on here, but I do see a distinct lack of understanding the process of development. Minutes, role, opportunity, and rate of growth are all nuanced things when it comes to the development of most role players.

People are so conditioned to watch stars develop and don't understand how role players like Kurt Thomas and Derek Fisher develop into commodities when they hit their late 20's...

I believe Powe will be a very valuable player in time and I place his probability of development as being fairly high - substantially greater than my faith that Davis will do the same...that's what it boils down to...

Reggie Evens, the quality role player that he's been, is far less talented than Leon Powe...
Bill,

I'm liking your points - good work, TP.

The main thing for me is Powe established that he can play at a high level offensively at PF for a sustained period of time last year. As a bench player - even if he's just passable on D - that's enough to get you a career.

BBD gets the run now, because this year Doc is not playing KG at C (like he did last year) and BBD is a better defensive option than Powe at C. But I think both BBD and Powe are better options at PF.

When I've suggested trades involving BBD - its because I saw the value he could provide to a team, not because I thought he was junk.
 

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #175 on: January 23, 2009, 09:59:57 AM »

Offline Brendan

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The ability to score is the most important facet of the game, name one great player who couldn't score? Checkout the PER formula and see how much more scoring correlates to winning than rebounding, assists, blocks, steals.

Powe is actually the best low block scoring threat on the team (actually I'd say Pierce and KG are better, but neither is going to consistently go down there.) I agree with the idea that both BBD and Powe play better as 6th men (i.e. with the other starters) than as parts of a second unit. It's because they are both limited players. The fact that we see them playing at the same time is both a testament to how good they are, and an indication that Doc's rotations are insane :)

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #176 on: January 23, 2009, 10:37:29 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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The ability to score is the most important facet of the game, name one great player who couldn't score? Checkout the PER formula and see how much more scoring correlates to winning than rebounding, assists, blocks, steals.

Powe is actually the best low block scoring threat on the team (actually I'd say Pierce and KG are better, but neither is going to consistently go down there.) I agree with the idea that both BBD and Powe play better as 6th men (i.e. with the other starters) than as parts of a second unit. It's because they are both limited players. The fact that we see them playing at the same time is both a testament to how good they are, and an indication that Doc's rotations are insane :)

Here's two:

Dennis Rodman
Ben Wallace

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #177 on: January 23, 2009, 10:40:33 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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The ability to score is the most important facet of the game, name one great player who couldn't score? Checkout the PER formula and see how much more scoring correlates to winning than rebounding, assists, blocks, steals.

Powe is actually the best low block scoring threat on the team (actually I'd say Pierce and KG are better, but neither is going to consistently go down there.) I agree with the idea that both BBD and Powe play better as 6th men (i.e. with the other starters) than as parts of a second unit. It's because they are both limited players. The fact that we see them playing at the same time is both a testament to how good they are, and an indication that Doc's rotations are insane :)


But Powe hasn't been much of a threat lately, has he?
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #178 on: January 23, 2009, 11:26:57 AM »

Offline cordobes

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The ability to score is the most important facet of the game, name one great player who couldn't score? Checkout the PER formula and see how much more scoring correlates to winning than rebounding, assists, blocks, steals.

Well, I agree any great player has to be able to score, but Wilt was the best scorer ever to play the game and didn't win much more rings than the defensive minded Russell, I suppose. And PER is just a compilation formula with theoretically derived weights. One of the criticisms frequently made to PER is that it overrates scoring. Others formulas, like Wins Produced for example, don't value scoring nearly as much. Personally I believe that PER overrates scoring (and puts an unjustified premium on inefficient scoring) and WPs severely underrates it (and puts a crazy premium on rebounding and low-usage scoring), but, essentially, that those formulas are kind of nonsensical to begin with and more misleading than helpful.

----

Powe is not nearly as good as Millsap. He can't produce consistently as we've been seeing this all season. The reason why there's a certain feeling of disappointment towards Powe is because people raised the expectations too much since the end of last season. I understand the Millsap Doctrine, but that's only applicable to players who are consistently productive off the bench, not to those who keep struggling with half of their match ups. Powe has to improve a lot to be a starter in this league, I think. He needs to read the game better, to know when to pick his fights. He has to take better care of the opportunities that are already there for him; he's too focused on shot creation when he's not really that good doing that. He's scoring about unassisted 0.5 points more per game, but both his scoring and his efficiency have declined: from 1.71 points per shot last season post ASG to 1.57 this season; from 20.1 points per 36 to 15.3. He can't turnover the ball this much, because turnovers are so costly and he can't produce enough to make up for it.  

Of course they look better playing along the starters, but that's true for almost every player in the NBA. The fact that Powe suffers so much from not having 2 starters playing alongside him is revealing that he's probably not ready to start.
(it's curious how many were saying in the pre-season that the improvement of Tony Allen and Powe would allow Doc to play a 2nd unit without starters - now the problem is that Powe and Allen can't be effective without being mixed with the starters... go figure).

To sum it up, Powe has to improve his feeling for the game. He's a natural scorer and rebounder with solid footwork on the blocks and the willingness to play physically, but that only makes him a much smaller and much less gifted version of Anthony Randolph. He needs to play smarter to give the next step.

To use a metaphor, Powe has a better but very private relationship with the ball, while Davis has a better understanding for the game environment - his teammates and the opponents. I also see Glen Davis as the best and more versatile defender and someone who doesn't compromise the team rebounding by much, so if Powe is struggling with his scoring (or both are), I th ;Dink I'd play Davis ahead of him. If Powe is comfortable with his game, what he brings to the table is just too valuable.

Anyway, it's difficult to predict how much better Powe or Davis can be. It always reminds me of Bobby Knight crystal glass.... I seeee... I seeee...oh, it's fading... just a second, just a second... coming back... ahahah, great stuff.

PS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50LsvwmgJ7I&feature=related

 ;D


Re: Powe or Davis?
« Reply #179 on: January 23, 2009, 12:46:03 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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If davis keeps shooting the midrange jumper like he can right now the choice is obvious for me.

They are pretty identical players except powe works a bit harder(or it seems because he is in tremendous shape) and big baby is smarter. But none of them really had a shot until now

If you asses some of the better smaller pf in the league like elton brand, charles barkley , milisap they all had/have consistant jumpers. (its unimaginable a 6'8 pf having to battle guys taller than him in the paint day in and day out and expected to be successful everytime on offense)

We might also have found that guy to replace the likes of joe smith or pj brown for the playoff run like i stated as long as his jumper is as it has been.